wogger wabit Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 hi been to see one of my permissions at weekend and was given this to fill in i have written permissions for five farms i shoot for and have shot for some of them for over ten years this form as come about throw an old guy in the village ringing police every time a different car enters the village complaning origonaly about hare cursing i know 2 of my permissions let nppc on there land also plus i think if they get it off the ground it will be all north yorks WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THEASE FORM THANKS i think there OTT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decoyboy Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 i wouldn't have thought being on private land was a police matter and is down to the land owner to control . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heladoxa Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Looks like you've got a Mr Jobsworth there. Surely these are made-up 'rules' Have a word with Hercule Poirot, he'll sort it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 i wouldn't have thought being on private land was a police matter and is down to the land owner to control . this is what i thought its lost me as they were supose to be after ilegal hunters ie (hare coursing) police called it operation jumbo ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Looks like you've got a Mr Jobsworth there. Surely these are made-up 'rules' Have a word with Hercule Poirot, he'll sort it hes more than that but deep down i think hes a bit of an anti but the police seem too be indulging him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinistercr0c Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Not sure, but I would say these are just another version of a permission slip, but poncy official police looking ones. Can't see that they have any legal status whatsoever....if you have the farmers permission written on a fag packet it is still legal and valid (just like writing cheques on the side of a cow...look it up on google its true)..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 This looks like a replacement for a normal letter, and presumably is going to be entered into a database by the Police? Issues on that in a minute... Is this a replacement for a regular permission letter? Or is it meant to be? In order of the conditions: 1. Well, obviously... 2. Illegal. No such thing as a 'routine stop check'. Nothing about it in law - if an Officer wants to stop you then He needs to have some suspicion so to do. 3. Also illegal. No written permission is required for shooting on private land - while it makes their lives easier if you do have it (and yours, too, as if you can't prove permission they DO have the right to arrest you for armed trespass, pending clear-up of the confusion) 4. Depends on the basis for the Police thing - if this is for private permission, and is with the landowner, it's fair enough. Ultimately if it's NOT, then the whole thing is BS. 5. With the landowner, is fair. 6. ******** - Utterly not required. They can ask nicely, they can't enforce it - any 'contract' between you and the landowner for shooting is between those two parties - no Police involvement is called for. 7. Obviously - it's the law! 8. Well that's with the landowner and you. 9. Again ******** - no proof of identity or ownership of firearms is required when shooting. Caveats apply here - I have not checked everything with Scripture, but am going on my pretty-thorough knowledge of the law. I would ask you to run this by the BASC, I have serious question marks about this. My issues: a. The Police should not be getting involved. While they like to know, this has been dealt with for decades with a letter of permission from the landowner to the shooter, which is carried with the shooter and solves all issues. b. What is happening to this data? All data captured by any Company is subject to the Data Protection Act, and under that Act, its uses and those with whom it can be shared must be made available to anyone who is entered into the database. Therefore, I suggest you request these details. Who set up this scheme? Who agreed to it? Do shooters know that their details are being put into yet another database? c. That form seeks to government-ise the normal process of shooting - what's this **** about 'you must use a nominated vehicle for the visit'? ****! I will use whatever car I like - if this is going to vary I will talk to the landowner if required. d. Do they think the conditions have any basis in law? Because they don't! Ultimately, their 'permit' carries no legal weight whatsoever. When you agree to shoot vermin for someone, you have a contract for service with that landowner. The conditions they put are not backed by any laws - if they then try to enforce them, those efforts at enforcement are illegal. e. The Conditions attempt to enforce things such as notification of Police prior to shooting - there is no legal basis for this, and if they attempted to do anything to you for NOT telling them, this would also be illegal. f. Are they thinking the Permit is a legal thing simply because it comes from the Police? They'd be wrong... IMHO it is much better, if you need a set of guidelines for permission, to use BASC's form. It's clear, simple and crosses no boundaries. I really do think this should go to BASC, so they can ask the appropriate questions officially, and get a clear understanding of what it is the Police are trying to do here. It stinks of Police trying to make laws as they go along, which is both illegal and immoral, and someone needs to do something about it. Sorry about the rant, but it's bloody annoying and ever more common! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Blimey-we'll have to carry a filing cabinet around when out shooting at this rate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 This looks like a replacement for a normal letter, and presumably is going to be entered into a database by the Police? Issues on that in a minute... Is this a replacement for a regular permission letter? Or is it meant to be? In order of the conditions: 1. Well, obviously... 2. Illegal. No such thing as a 'routine stop check'. Nothing about it in law - if an Officer wants to stop you then He needs to have some suspicion so to do. 3. Also illegal. No written permission is required for shooting on private land - while it makes their lives easier if you do have it (and yours, too, as if you can't prove permission they DO have the right to arrest you for armed trespass, pending clear-up of the confusion) 4. Depends on the basis for the Police thing - if this is for private permission, and is with the landowner, it's fair enough. Ultimately if it's NOT, then the whole thing is BS. 5. With the landowner, is fair. 6. ******** - Utterly not required. They can ask nicely, they can't enforce it - any 'contract' between you and the landowner for shooting is between those two parties - no Police involvement is called for. 7. Obviously - it's the law! 8. Well that's with the landowner and you. 9. Again ******** - no proof of identity or ownership of firearms is required when shooting. Caveats apply here - I have not checked everything with Scripture, but am going on my pretty-thorough knowledge of the law. I would ask you to run this by the BASC, I have serious question marks about this. My issues: a. The Police should not be getting involved. While they like to know, this has been dealt with for decades with a letter of permission from the landowner to the shooter, which is carried with the shooter and solves all issues. b. What is happening to this data? All data captured by any Company is subject to the Data Protection Act, and under that Act, its uses and those with whom it can be shared must be made available to anyone who is entered into the database. Therefore, I suggest you request these details. Who set up this scheme? Who agreed to it? Do shooters know that their details are being put into yet another database? c. That form seeks to government-ise the normal process of shooting - what's this **** about 'you must use a nominated vehicle for the visit'? ****! I will use whatever car I like - if this is going to vary I will talk to the landowner if required. d. Do they think the conditions have any basis in law? Because they don't! Ultimately, their 'permit' carries no legal weight whatsoever. When you agree to shoot vermin for someone, you have a contract for service with that landowner. The conditions they put are not backed by any laws - if they then try to enforce them, those efforts at enforcement are illegal. e. The Conditions attempt to enforce things such as notification of Police prior to shooting - there is no legal basis for this, and if they attempted to do anything to you for NOT telling them, this would also be illegal. f. Are they thinking the Permit is a legal thing simply because it comes from the Police? They'd be wrong... IMHO it is much better, if you need a set of guidelines for permission, to use BASC's form. It's clear, simple and crosses no boundaries. I really do think this should go to BASC, so they can ask the appropriate questions officially, and get a clear understanding of what it is the Police are trying to do here. It stinks of Police trying to make laws as they go along, which is both illegal and immoral, and someone needs to do something about it. Sorry about the rant, but it's bloody annoying and ever more common! this is what i thought problem is iam not in basc is that a prob i have insurance with an other but i thought i wouold put it on here cos it wont just invole me my farmers this has been given to are quite old and have been good to me over years and have had this put on them my other farms think it BS too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I really can't think of anything to add to Mr L response , could be because I've just demolished a bottle of wine!!! Anyway, signing this can only restrict your rights, you are agreeing to be restricted by signing this when there is no basis in law for most of these restrictions at all. The majority of these restrictions are civil anyway, and as said between you and the landowner, the police are not involved. What really ****** me off is the police touting this around and shoving it up farmers noses and getting them to put pressure on you, that is way out of order!! But this is also most definitely something for the likes of the BASC, get it to them ASAP, it doesn't matter if you are not a member, they will want to see this sort of garbage!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatcatsplat Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 Think the fact that it is "Implemented by the Selby West Safer Neighbourhood Team" is the telling part - It's NOT police issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delbert Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I'm in two minds as a matter of courtesy we used to advise the police of the dates of our shoots contact details and of likely vehicles that they would expect to see. This was a very different set of circumstances it was a formal shoot in a national park and we were afforded a degree of protection when we parked on the moors just in case anti's were abroad. Unless there was some overiding reason on the permissions nearby school etc I would be very loth to comply with a form with no legal basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlight32 Posted February 16, 2010 Report Share Posted February 16, 2010 I had trouble with a fella who did'nt like me lamping at the back of his house, it all got quite messy as when it boils down to it it is purely due to the fact he was an anti. Everytime I pulled on the field within 20-30 mins I would get a visit. In the end he got fed up with it because I was all road legal. I just used to go up there all the more. The inquiries start off a little demeaning but once they know you are all legit there is nothing they can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 Call basc anyway, or pm David basc on here. Even though you're not a member they will want to see this, for the good of many people!! Fatcat - by the looks of this, some fluffy bunny people have been to the coppers and this is the result. Given it has no legal basis it needs stomping on, in a big way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 I live in the selby area, I have never seen one of these, must just be for the non locals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 I laughed at the part saying that shooting must take place on foot only. What's that got to do with anyone but the land owner, who knows what crops he has and whether they can/will be driven on? That condition would kill a few of my permissions as I use the vehicle as a high seat. I'd scribble out all the bits you disagree with then send it back with a covering letter stating why it's not reasonable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepastew Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 for all our sakes do not make any response at all , this document is in direct breach of your human rights thus making it illegal on at least three counts that i can think off quickly, i also would question the security of the infomation being asked for this is serious and basc ngo and other groups should be made aware of this asap again do not reply in anyway as even conformation of having said form could be conspired as being an acceptent of terms in the document and make any one eles aware of the situation . im straight on to basc legal about it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 There are several issues with this document. I've drawn the attention of BASC to it. webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 hi thanks for all your responces there is another condition form but i cant get it small enouth to put it on when i figer it out i will post it i will also copy it all and forward too basc and the answer to bobt this as come about from operation jumbo they had meetings in tadcaster and dracs village halls but this was not mentioned at the time they wanted farmers and shooters to go but dident no till after the fact and i belive it was mostly locals (towny) a few farmers and a couple of plod on the form i posted there is four police officers names and numbers under the neiberhood watch team part i did not put there names on as i dident no whether to or not but i think the same as every one else its **** like i said i have shot on this land four 10 years no probs got writen permison but never been asked for it been stopped once and that was down to this bloke last feb the police came to me asked for my licence had a few laughs with him and then went no probs thanks to all your response much apprecated martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 This is NOT an official form, the 'conditions' on the form are ridiculous! Only valid if the above vehicles are use, what if you walk to your permission! This is a case of the local plod going daft … the firearms team are calling them as I type! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr lee Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 This is NOT an official form, the 'conditions' on the form are ridiculous! Only valid if the above vehicles are use, what if you walk to your permission! This is a case of the local plod going daft … the firearms team are calling them as I type! David Keep us informed of the outcome will you please David? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) 8. No vehicular access is granted That should make 4x4 lamping interesting, should we just shoot from the road then? This sort of thing is just ridiculous, it has no legal bearing but is obviously set out to fool people into thinking it's an official legal document. I could add the Norfolk Constabulary crest to the permission slip I use but I feel it would be deceitful as it would have no more legal authority. Grant_of_permission_to_shoot2.doc I've attached the one I use for reference, the only observation that I have ever had made on this by a landowner was one of them adding a line that he "...accepted no responsibilty for any incident or injury arising from this permission" Edited February 17, 2010 by Colster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 This is NOT an official form, the 'conditions' on the form are ridiculous! Only valid if the above vehicles are use, what if you walk to your permission! This is a case of the local plod going daft … the firearms team are calling them as I type! David hi david i have spoke to basc and sent them a copy of all forms with the names of the police involved on it thanks martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 17, 2010 Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 Hi, Damn me, never seen the like! Well done all round, I say: Wogger for posting it, Webber for acting and David and BASC for the immediate reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wogger wabit Posted February 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2010 hi been down to see farmer that had been given this form they to were a bit in the dark about this form they invited the guy round who apparently put this form togehter with a pcso he said but its only a draft and were a trail thing and now backpeddleing somewhat fast as it has not been put through propper channals as it were that been the case why did they give them out to farmers i have stopped them going to any other shooters at my end but the pcso is of for a week and dont know if she as past these on to others round the eggborourgh area so as far as i no only me basc if they recived it and on here are the only ones incerculation if i get to no any thing else i will let you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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