Remote Collers

[cracker]

it's a learning curve for me and the dog.

 

have a look on YouTube, I was surprised to see how the Americans use them, but it makes sense;

 

not so much a distance chastisement, they issue

the command and "zap" the dog every second or

so until it complies, the dog learns to do as it's told

straight away to avoid the unpleasent sensation. The

collar's only on a setting just enough to be felt.

 

News for you--an e-collar ain't a learning curve item, and if "how the

Americans use them" in the video "makes sense" to you, it's only

because those you're watching are as uneducated about proper

e-collar use as you are.

 

"Zapping the dog until it complies" went out with Boy George--except

for America's dark ages trainers, who happen to be 99% in number

uninformed pointing dog trainers and who aren't "training" anything

but how far a dog should or shouldn't run ahead before it turns back.

 

Learn to train a dog without a collar before you even think of trying

to train a dog with a collar--is there some reason you can't?

 

MG

Edited April 11, 2010 by cracker

[PERCE]

Go hug a tree

 

I've found trees to be a far more useful tool when dog training than I'd ever find an e-collar

[Lloyd90]

I've found trees to be a far more useful tool when dog training than I'd ever find an e-collar

 

Look If you want to just come here n not even add anything constructive to my topic then dont bother posting.

As already stated the E-coller can be a great aid if used correctly to help with training!

 

Topic no longer needed, Conclusion, there a good training aid. Thats my opinion that I have formed from this. Thanks everyone!

[pegleg31]

Look If you want to just come here n not even add anything constructive to my topic then dont bother posting.

As already stated the E-coller can be a great aid if used correctly to help with training!

 

Topic no longer needed, Conclusion, there a good training aid. Thats my opinion that I have formed from this. Thanks everyone!

 

 

if you buy one don't get the cheap one's off ebay,they're pant's.they're a complete waste of money,i made the mistake of buying one first.look on the U.S ebay and you can get some really good deals

 

all the best

 

Russ

[UKPoacher]

Aparently (who knows?) dogs associate places with things hence taking them back BUT; I'm sure I mentioned it but maybe not - I found it doesn't work and (having tried everything else I could find/think of) I decided to try an e-collar (but I got a cheap one just to try) which also has little to no effect but that's beside the point - this was my last resort really and it's not really worked (though it's cured another problem) I do have a new plan which I've already mentioned. I didn't buy it for a quick fix or to be cruel, I bought it as a tool to help with a problem.

 

I'm sorry those who dont like it but I felt it was worth a try.

 

I'm sorry to point this out, but the phrase "and (having tried everything else I could find/think of)" really stands out when you read what you perceive the problems to be. What you need is a good dog trainer. What is your book by the way?

 

Cracker, I'm with you. I have seen so many instances of misuse of e-collars that I really do think that they should be licenced. I realise that they have their (limited) uses, but they are so misunderstood it is a waste of time using them for many dog owners.

[PERCE]

Look If you want to just come here n not even add anything constructive to my topic then dont bother posting.

As already stated the E-coller can be a great aid if used correctly to help with training!

 

Topic no longer needed, Conclusion, there a good training aid. Thats my opinion that I have formed from this. Thanks everyone!

 

I'll stand by response that a tree is a better training aid than E-Collar, admittedly not for your problem.

If I was you I'd be going to have one to one lessons with a Pro Trainer, a far better way to spend your brass. The right one can be hard to find but a few words from the right person & the game of blind mans buff gets a whole lot easier.

[Lloyd90]

Actually I already do, the breeder I had her off is a pro trainer and field trials labs. We go up to him about once a week except recently as dog is in heat.

She is progressing but the biggest thing I can say is she is SELECTIVELY DEAF. She can hear me and knows exactly what I want her to do, but if something more interesting (Like another dog) is about she will just ignore me n run off to them. Again yesterday she ran along way off and went across a road to some dogs. Thank god there wasnt a car coming at that time!! I called several times for her to stop but once she had seen the dogs she was gone!

 

1 or 2 zap's in that situation n she would have returned to me before she got anywhere near the road

[fieldwanderer]

Actually I already do, the breeder I had her off is a pro trainer and field trials labs. We go up to him about once a week except recently as dog is in heat.

She is progressing but the biggest thing I can say is she is SELECTIVELY DEAF. She can hear me and knows exactly what I want her to do, but if something more interesting (Like another dog) is about she will just ignore me n run off to them. Again yesterday she ran along way off and went across a road to some dogs. Thank god there wasnt a car coming at that time!! I called several times for her to stop but once she had seen the dogs she was gone!

 

1 or 2 zap's in that situation n she would have returned to me before she got anywhere near the road

 

I'm maybe not explaining myself very well so I'm not gonna carry on debating this but thanks for any suggestions made.

 

Bigthug; That's what I thought too mate but it just doesn't work like that, they're (or mine is) either mild enough or the dog's head strong enough to ignore it.

 

I've asked about (including pro trainers) and the feeling seems to be the same - they do have their place BUT "all dogs are different, some will respond to it every time and some will ignore it just the same as they ignore you". The gyst of what I've been told is that I've progressed faster than I should have and I need to go back a bit and get her 100% obedient close up before gradually increasing the distance, starting off in an enclosed area (shame the astro turf pitch got taken away). I think the idea is the dog will get that used to obeying you that it'll do so no matter what, whether or not it works - I don't know.

[al4x]

I've got one and my GWP actually gets excited when the collar goes on its that bad

 

Its been a lifesaver literally as it stopped her bolting on hares and stopped her immediately. That said I think I've shocked her on minimum about 5 times, my collar has a beep function you can use before the shock and she very quickly switched onto a beep means stop and do what you're told. Yes we'd all like it if we didn't need them but if you've a dog that starts playing deaf at a year / 2 years old you end up either having it on the lead all the time or falling out with it which doesn't help. Collars are not cruel used properly in my case its less cruel in my mind than having a dog that wants to run that you can't let off.

[PERCE]

Actually I already do, the breeder I had her off is a pro trainer and field trials labs. We go up to him about once a week except recently as dog is in heat.

She is progressing but the biggest thing I can say is she is SELECTIVELY DEAF. She can hear me and knows exactly what I want her to do, but if something more interesting (Like another dog) is about she will just ignore me n run off to them. Again yesterday she ran along way off and went across a road to some dogs. Thank god there wasnt a car coming at that time!! I called several times for her to stop but once she had seen the dogs she was gone!

 

1 or 2 zap's in that situation n she would have returned to me before she got anywhere near the road

 

I assume your problem occurs when you're out walking your dog, relaxing etc? I also assume you train / walk your dog in a public place where there's loads of distractions?

I train / exercise in a public place so this is what I do.

I've got an 11 month Lab bitch, I've owned her 3 weeks, here's how we go for a walk with my 20 month old bitch & my 4 year old bitch. I allow the dogs to go to the toilet, after that the younger ones have to walk at loose heel. I don't follow footpaths, I constantly change direct & throw a few sits in for good measure. The whole time the older dog does what she likes out front, she's my constant distraction. I allow no interaction with other dogs, as soon as one is sighted mine are sat up, any movement & they're put back where they were. I have zero tolerance on this. When I'm 100% with her doing this I'll move on to allowing her to go play, but she'll then she'll get either the recall & or stop whistle constantly. As far as I concerned any of my dogs have to spend100% of their time thinking what I'M going to do next.

[dazco2121]

finally there's the constructive comment :blink:

[PERCE]

finally there's the constructive comment :blink:

 

Didn't think he wanted constructive, just a bit cuddle to say it was OK to zap his pup. Which btw you may have guessed already is not what I think his pup needs.

Edited April 12, 2010 by PERCE

[Lloyd90]

Didn't think he wanted constructive, just a bit cuddle to say it was OK to zap his pup. Which btw you may have guessed already is not what I think his pup needs.

 

Obviously. But it helps by saying things that could help rather than just downing the plan! Its not as If Im setting out to inflict pain and torture isit ?

 

Just trying to train the dog the best I can

[Jaminzx7r]

Obviously. But it helps by saying things that could help rather than just downing the plan! Its not as If Im setting out to inflict pain and torture isit ?

 

Just trying to train the dog the best I can

 

Absolutely, a sign of a responsible dog owner which in my experience is a rare breed.

[PERCE]

Absolutely, a sign of a responsible dog owner which in my experience is a rare breed.

 

so being responsible is zapping your dog when your training fails?

[UKPoacher]

I made suggestions in a civilised manner If the guy doesn't understand why his pevious methods may have been detrimental to success then he is likely to make similar mistakes using an e-collar and further compound the situation.

[Jaminzx7r]

so being responsible is zapping your dog when your training fails?

 

If all other avenues available to you have failed and if used correctly then yes.

 

If it reinforces the training in a manner in which Bigthug can prevent his dog from running off and entering into a situation where the dog could hurt itself, then yes, if it reinforces the training to prevent his dog running off across road and getting run over or worse, causing a road accident where other people could get hurt, yes again, and any other scenario you care to ensivisage where the dog can hurts itself or other animals or people.

 

A momentray buzz from a collar does not hurt, as I said I've used on myself, and the 2 occasions I had to shock my dog to reinforce the NO command, neither time did he whince whine or yelp. He simply snapped out of the obsesive behaviour at the time enough to then acknowledge the recall command issued after the NO.

 

Fortunately you've never experienced a behavioural issue you cant solve with regular methods, perhaps if and when you do you may think differently.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Jaminzx7r

[PERCE]

I made suggestions in a civilised manner If the guy doesn't understand why his pevious methods may have been detrimental to success then he is likely to make similar mistakes using an e-collar and further compound the situation.

 

Exactly & then his dog is about as much use as chocolate fireguard. That hardest thing for folk to grasp as that they're the problem, not the dog, the dog only does what it's been taught / allowed.

[pegleg31]

so perce how would you advise me to train without a collar?

 

as i've stated my right leg is ****** so running is out of the question.my dog is well trained in all aspect's except when she's on the peg!!!.i've tried every thing nothing work's she's great and steady as a rock until i have a gun in my hand.

there's no point in scalding a dog for coming back to you.as i can't get to her quickly enough i bought one to break her attention,hurting her is out of the question.

 

i'm sorry to say collars have a place if used correctly and you've explored other avenue's.i've already offered to meet up with someone to see if i can help with their problem's before resorting to a collar

[UKPoacher]

Exactly & then his dog is about as much use as chocolate fireguard. That hardest thing for folk to grasp as that they're the problem, not the dog, the dog only does what it's been taught / allowed.

 

Agreed.

 

About a year ago a guy came to me for help with his dogs. I went out for a walk and quickly established that:

 

The dalmatian (Bruce) was top dog, but needed reassuring of this.

The weimaraner (George) was being bullied by the dalmatian.

Whenever they were let off the leash Bruce made sure that George never got near the owner and so George did what his breed are good at and went of hunting. Bruce was also keen to hunt and would disappear into the distance whenever he saw another dog or bird flying.

At the best of times we needed binoculars to keep track on the dogs and if they saw another dog or dogs they would tear off after them. That was the only time they acted together when out even though they were kennelled together.

The owner had absolutely no recall and both dogs pulled like trains on the leashes.

 

It took seven one-hour sessions (basically walks) to achieve a situation where both dogs walked to heel on or off the leash, both dogs immediately recalled to the whistle even if distracted. No e-collar, no beatings, no dragging them back to where they went wrong.

 

In a nutshell I trained the owner, not the dogs. The big plus point is that every week when I went out with them I could see in the dog's behaviour that the owner had followed my suggestions. He accepted what I said and did it without question. The biggest obstacle in training other people's dogs is that the owners are often too lazy or disinterested to continue the sucessfull methods when the trainer isn't there. That is why training from a book is rarely successfull.

[Jaminzx7r]

That hardest thing for folk to grasp as that they're the problem, not the dog, the dog only does what it's been taught / allowed.

 

Absolutley agree, which whilst not ideal, the collar has a place in correcting an issue but is not the solution to all problems.

 

If an owner has naturally bad timing and inconsistency then the dog is doomed. But if and when your acknowledge your failings as a trainer and correct them it may be too late to correct the dog with usual methods. A dog needs to know it's done wrong or good within approx 1s of the behaviour, chasing the dog (which to be fair to the dog will probably think it's a game) and then chastising the dog once caught way after the event is far more confusing to the dog.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Jaminzx7r

[UKPoacher]

so perce how would you advise me to train without a collar?

 

as i've stated my right leg is ****** so running is out of the question.my dog is well trained in all aspect's except when she's on the peg!!!.i've tried every thing nothing work's she's great and steady as a rock until i have a gun in my hand.

there's no point in scalding a dog for coming back to you.as i can't get to her quickly enough i bought one to break her attention,hurting her is out of the question.

 

i'm sorry to say collars have a place if used correctly and you've explored other avenue's.i've already offered to meet up with someone to see if i can help with their problem's before resorting to a collar

 

I'll bet that the old adage of: 'It's easier to stop a horse from bolting than to stop a bolting horse' is pertinent to your problem.

 

When do you correct the dog?

 

a - when it is sitting properly at your side

b - when it's bum comes off the ground

c - when it's broke and on it's way

 

If the answer isn't 'b' then an e-collar is unnecessary as you haven't grasped the problem. If the answer is 'b' then an e-collar isn't necessary as the dog is still at your side.

[pegleg31]

I'll bet that the old adage of: 'It's easier to stop a horse from bolting than to stop a bolting horse' is pertinent to your problem.

 

When do you correct the dog?

 

a - when it is sitting properly at your side

b - when it's bum comes off the ground

c - when it's broke and on it's way

 

If the answer isn't 'b' then an e-collar is unnecessary as you haven't grasped the problem. If the answer is 'b' then an e-collar isn't necessary as the dog is still at your side.

 

 

right i can go and stand next to a guy shooting and be on top of my dog,she won't move.it's as if she know's she's got a split second to get away when a lift my gun,then it's to late.i've actually been to trainer's and spent the first year of having my lab being trained(me not the lab) and because of my condition i was recomended to use one.

i'll agree their's other option's to explore before resorting to a collar but they do have a place.

 

 

and just to add,i tether the dog while shooting now,until she's steady she won't get the oppertunity to run in again.she does'nt move until the end of a drive and i'll pick the closest bird's.she'll only pick one maybe two bird's if she's been well behaved.if not i'll let someone else's dog get a good retrieve

[UKPoacher]

right i can go and stand next to a guy shooting and be on top of my dog,she won't move.it's as if she know's she's got a split second to get away when a lift my gun,then it's to late.i've actually been to trainer's and spent the first year of having my lab being trained(me not the lab) and because of my condition i was recomended to use one.

i'll agree their's other option's to explore before resorting to a collar but they do have a place.

 

 

and just to add,i tether the dog while shooting now,until she's steady she won't get the oppertunity to run in again.she does'nt move until the end of a drive and i'll pick the closest bird's.she'll only pick one maybe two bird's if she's been well behaved.if not i'll let someone else's dog get a good retrieve

 

 

Think about it from the dog's point of view. She is wanting to maximise efficiency. It is inbuilt into hunting animals that the longer they leave the hunt the less chance of success and therefore survival. By breaking she is maximising efficiency. If you were to shoot your gun forward, turn round 180 degrees then send her in the direction that was previously behind you, her breaking would be inefficient. If in training you shot one way, then sent the dog left, right or back she woudn't know which way was maximising efficiency and so would stay and wait for directions.

 

Another way is to tether her and make her 'sit'. Ask somone to stand behind with a long willow wand and to let you know and immediately twitch the dog's behind every time it comes off the ground. Your job is to reinforce the 'sit' verbally immediately he tells you she's lifted. Once she knows that lifting her bum means correction she will become steadier.

[pegleg31]

is the 'twitch her behind' not the same as using a low level stimulation on the collar?

 

collar's are'nt the big electric shock's everyone think's they are and some of the setting's are probably less of a twitching than a bit of willow/heel stick