legal shooting distance

[Fisheruk]

43 minutes ago, wymberley said:

And to be really precise it's within 50 ft of the centre of the road

So if it’s a dual carriageway you can legally be right on the edge 😳

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And to be really, really precise it is termed carriageway!

Oh, damn it, I always thought it was highway.

[Scully]

I’m not aware of anyone who adheres to this. I’ve been on shoots in the company of serving and retired cops, where guns have stood in the centre of country lanes. 
I was always led to believe it was fine as long as no one using that route was impeded. 

[wymberley]

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’m not aware of anyone who adheres to this. I’ve been on shoots in the company of serving and retired cops, where guns have stood in the centre of country lanes. 
I was always led to believe it was fine as long as no one using that route was impeded. 

Yep, see Blunderbuss' post - the sixth one.

[Vince Green]

A public order offence is committed if your actions cause anxiety or distress to another person. No matter where when or how you cause it.

 

you might also like to have a look at this

 

Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)

Edited September 21, 2021 by Vince Green

[wymberley]

22 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

A public order offence is committed if your actions cause anxiety or distress to another person. No matter where when or how you cause it.

 

you might also like to have a look at this

 

Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)

Flippin' 'eck, is there a layman's version? 

[Fellside]

This 50 ft aspect is a commonly miss understood principle - and crops up in various ‘Acts’. Many people think they can’t shoot within 50ft of the road’s central line. This isn’t so. It also has various types of wording. However, the basic principle is the same: you have only broken the law if you cause death, injury or threat to a user of the public highway (or carriageway in old fashioned parlance). 
 

The ‘50 ft from the centre of a public highway’ is an arbitrary distance used in court should any of the above infringements be proven. It’s worth noting: the perception of ‘threat’ is a tricky one - and open to interpretation….?! 
 

Re housing, there is only historical guidance. BASC once deemed shooting within 400 metres of housing as unacceptable. However, in the real world it is possible to strike up some rapport with a reasonable householder and gain their approval - especially if they are given some dressed game…..?
I trust we are not talking about a whole housing estate here - and just an individual dwelling. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

No wonder these threads run for so long!  

[Fellside]

57 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

A public order offence is committed if your actions cause anxiety or distress to another person. No matter where when or how you cause it.

 

you might also like to have a look at this

 

Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)Firearms – Carrying in a public place – Sentencing (sentencingcouncil.org.uk)

Yes this is interesting Vince. Providing your shotgun isn’t ‘ ‘loaded in a public place’ no infringement had occurred. However, with the level of terrorist threat we have currently, anyone would be daft to carry their sleeved gun in a public area. It quite obviously looks like - and is very definitely a firearm to any onlookers. 
P.S  for ‘daft’ read ‘looking for a bad day in town’….?!

[Walker570]

On 09/04/2010 at 16:55, M ROBSON said:

In Scotland you can shoot right on the edge of a public road or footpath, there is no 50ft rule for us. In any case, the public can go anywhere they want due to our access laws so you have to be just as careful in a wood, up a hill, or next to a footpath!

 

There are 2 charges that can be made against you if you get it wrong.

 

"Wreckless discharge of a firearm" or "Wreckless endangerment"

 

 

Mark.

The 50ft rule in England and I believe Wales is from the centre of the highway and you have to cause fear or distress to a passer by.  I have shot on a number of shoots in the past when we have been pegged on the public tarnac road and the local Bobby has stood behind the line watching the fun.  Those where the good old days never to return me thinks.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Walker570

[Fellside]

10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No wonder these threads run for so long!  

Sorry tight choke. Not easy to explain these things in a sentence….. at least not for me apparently….😄

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Sorry tight choke. Not easy to explain these things in a sentence….. at least not for me apparently….😄

Sorry Fellside you misunderstand me.

Not having a dig at you explaining things, this has gone on forever and rather than searching for and reading old threads it all starts up AGAIN!

[Fellside]

3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

The 50ft rule in England and I believe Wales is from the centre of the highway and you have to cause fear or distress to a passer by.  I have shot on a number of shoots in the past when we have been pegged on the public tarnac road and the local Bobby has stood behind the line watching the fun.  Those where the good old days never to return me thinks.

Exactly so. Interestingly, the notion of ‘threat’ is usually proven if a passer by is witnessed to turn back on their journey. If they continue traveling closer and then pass the gun user, they can’t have been sufficiently concerned in the first place. 

I know this is ‘paint drying’ to some people…..?! However these days, I think it’s important to have a reasonable legal awareness. 
 

I any case the pigeon shooting is rubbish in my area at the moment….so chatting about it is the best I can do for now…😄

19 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Sorry Fellside you misunderstand me.

Not having a dig at you explaining things, this has gone on forever and rather than searching for and reading old threads it all starts up AGAIN!

Ah yes TIGHTCHOKE, I see what you mean. I too remember this subject cropping up in the past. 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Sorry Fellside you misunderstand me.

Not having a dig at you explaining things, this has gone on forever and rather than searching for and reading old threads it all starts up AGAIN!

It is the way with PW; I sometimes tire of posting the same old replies to the same old queries. 
For example, you are perfectly within your rights as a licensed firearm holder, to carry your empty and sleeved gun through town. I’ve done this many a time, and still continue to do so on occasion. 

[Fellside]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

It is the way with PW; I sometimes tire of posting the same old replies to the same old queries. 
For example, you are perfectly within your rights as a licensed firearm holder, to carry your empty and sleeved gun through town. I’ve done this many a time, and still continue to do so on occasion. 

I hear talk of a female grouse shot who carries her gun and shooting gear on the train quite frequently. Never uses a car. Lifts at either end etc. She’s perfectly entitled to, as you do through town Scully (and good for you). It’s a personal choice however. In the current climate of terrorist threat and criminal gun violence I haven’t quite got the nerve. Too chicken….?!

[Centrepin]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

I’m not aware of anyone who adheres to this. I’ve been on shoots in the company of serving and retired cops, where guns have stood in the centre of country lanes. 
I was always led to believe it was fine as long as no one using that route was impeded. 

That is my opinion also.

If someone wants to pass you must unload and allow passage the same as footpaths and bridleways. 

[Fellside]

10 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

That is my opinion also.

If someone wants to pass you must unload and allow passage the same as footpaths and bridleways. 

Good point - reasonable  conduct. Nobody could successfully accuse you of being ‘threatening’ if you’re witnessed unloading. 
These days I also make a point of saying something like, “don’t worry my gun isn’t loaded.” It’s just worth being heard to say it. 

I’ve had this issue arise on a shoot I help run. Involved a passer by with a very ‘anti’ attitude. Long story short. After all the witness evidence was gathered, he (passer by that is) was cautioned for aggravated trespass, having strayed to make his point. It could have easily gone wrong for the guns involved if their good safe conduct’ had not been demonstrated / witnessed. 
 

Luckily these things don’t happen too often. 
 

[Vince Green]

10 hours ago, wymberley said:

Flippin' 'eck, is there a layman's version? 

yes  - dont do it. You should also note from the link I posted. Those are the  sentencing guidelines for magistrates and Judges

1) Effective from 1st of January 2021.so what the hell changed on 1st Jan?? nothing? More moving the goalposts by stealth it appears?

2) It just says a loaded gun it doesn't make any distinction between licenced and unlicenced guns what ever

3) It doesn't in any way define public place. That could be loosely defined as "anywhere" the public can gain access to. 

as a former magistrate we would often have to retire to look up stuff like this for clarification. Loosely worded laws are one thing but this is not changing the law it is just changing the guidelines. Much more insidious, guidelines are not law but they become law by being adopted

Its like you wake up on the 1st of Jan and its a done deal. Faceless  civil  servants have changed "the law"    

Edited September 21, 2021 by Vince Green

[Fellside]

12 hours ago, Vince Green said:

yes  - dont do it. You should also note from the link I posted. Those are the  sentencing guidelines for magistrates and Judges

1) Effective from 1st of January 2021.so what the hell changed on 1st Jan?? nothing? More moving the goalposts by stealth it appears?

2) It just says a loaded gun it doesn't make any distinction between licenced and unlicenced guns what ever

3) It doesn't in any way define public place. That could be loosely defined as "anywhere" the public can gain access to. 

as a former magistrate we would often have to retire to look up stuff like this for clarification. Loosely worded laws are one thing but this is not changing the law it is just changing the guidelines. Much more insidious, guidelines are not law but they become law by being adopted

Its like you wake up on the 1st of Jan and its a done deal. Faceless  civil  servants have changed "the law"    

Thanks Vince - good for us all to be aware. 

[lakeside1000]

Why would you want to sit near someone's garden blasting away with a shotgun, they could have aging family, babies , nervous dogs ,alarms triggered by sound, why not keep the peace and go somewhere you will not cause upset, or bad feelings, and especially not bring bad public opinion down on us as responsible pigeon shooters.

I have a hushpower moderator on my 12 gauge and still stay at least 200 yards away from houses but even then you have to watch wind direction for sound travel or fall of shot, just respect other peoples right to privacy and silence, 

I often shoot near to highways and observe the 50 foot rule, always shooting away from the carriageway but also looking out for passing traffic, you don't want to cause a crash by firing next to a car and frightening the driver . just common courtesy, it doesn't cost anything!!!

[clangerman]

no excuse to be causing a problem switch to air rifle for awkward places you will shoot more birds than being stuck two fields away out shot my mate plenty of times being set up on the feed spot 

[Fellside]

3 hours ago, lakeside1000 said:

Why would you want to sit near someone's garden blasting away with a shotgun, they could have aging family, babies , nervous dogs ,alarms triggered by sound, why not keep the peace and go somewhere you will not cause upset, or bad feelings, and especially not bring bad public opinion down on us as responsible pigeon shooters.

I have a hushpower moderator on my 12 gauge and still stay at least 200 yards away from houses but even then you have to watch wind direction for sound travel or fall of shot, just respect other peoples right to privacy and silence, 

I often shoot near to highways and observe the 50 foot rule, always shooting away from the carriageway but also looking out for passing traffic, you don't want to cause a crash by firing next to a car and frightening the driver . just common courtesy, it doesn't cost anything!!!

Hence the importance of a friendly chat with the householder. It may be possible to establish when they’re out visiting or at work etc. It equally may transpire that shooting is unreasonable. Only one way to find out. 

[wymberley]

On 21/09/2021 at 20:08, Vince Green said:

yes  - dont do it. You should also note from the link I posted. Those are the  sentencing guidelines for magistrates and Judges

1) Effective from 1st of January 2021.so what the hell changed on 1st Jan?? nothing? More moving the goalposts by stealth it appears?

2) It just says a loaded gun it doesn't make any distinction between licenced and unlicenced guns what ever

3) It doesn't in any way define public place. That could be loosely defined as "anywhere" the public can gain access to. 

as a former magistrate we would often have to retire to look up stuff like this for clarification. Loosely worded laws are one thing but this is not changing the law it is just changing the guidelines. Much more insidious, guidelines are not law but they become law by being adopted

Its like you wake up on the 1st of Jan and its a done deal. Faceless  civil  servants have changed "the law"    

That could be loosely defined as "anywhere" the public can gain access to. Just been browsing out of boredom. May pay to add, "legally at the relevant time". Eg, the farmyard but the farm shop is open.

[Vince Green]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

That could be loosely defined as "anywhere" the public can gain access to. Just been browsing out of boredom. May pay to add, "legally at the relevant time". Eg, the farmyard but the farm shop is open.

I don't know it does mean legally at the relevant time. The guidelines dont make any definition of what it means. So it means whatever some copper thinks it means later down the line.

You can be done for being drunk in charge of a vehicle even if its parked on your drive with the engine switched off, because the law doesn't say it has to be on the public highway. It has happened

Be very scared of loosely worded rules / guidelines / laws. They are the work of the unaccountable faceless civil servants  

Edited October 16, 2021 by Vince Green

[wymberley]

10 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I don't know it does mean legally at the relevant time. The guidelines dont make any definition of what it means. So it means whatever some copper thinks it means later down the line.

You can be done for being drunk in charge of a vehicle even if its parked on your drive with the engine switched off, because the law doesn't say it has to be on the public highway. It has happened

Be very scared of loosely worded rules / guidelines / laws. They are the work of the unaccountable faceless civil servants  

I think, perhaps, I might. Possibly my mistake was giving an example - one commonly used when explaining 'public places' to shooters as it's something we can all relate to. However, see the 1968 Firearms Act - Section 19, I think. Alternatively, try Miscellaneous Firearms Offences in Chapter 8 Firearms of Fair Game by Charlie Parkes and John Thornley.