Baikal Ejector Problem

[paul99]

Hi, All

I'm not sure if it's bad form for a 1st post to be a question or not here but I've been lurking for a very long time now, just not had the commitment to post . Anyway the reason for the post - I've just recently picked up a Baikal O/U double trigger ejector ИЖ- 27E (which AFAIK translates to IZH-27E) it's marked MADE IN USSR which leads me to believe that it's not exactly a new gun but it is in good condition and I wonder whether it's done little work or if it's just been well looked after (which is unlikely given it's previous owner ).

 

The only problem I have with it apart from it being pretty stiff to close is that the bottom ejector won't kick out the spent cartridge unless you break open the gun sharply - breaking it gently does trigger the ejector but seemingly only with enough force to get the cases only about 1/4 of the way (max) out of the chambers whilst the top barrel will kick the empty out just fine. I swapped the ejector springs around to rule out a weak / broken spring and of course have cleaned and lubricated it all too but it's made no difference. The top ejector continues to perform faultlessly whilst the bottom just won't eject without breaking the gun swiftly. I've tried a variety of cartridges with differing lengths of brass heads but that's not made any difference either. Having looked at the Baikal IZH manual I have made sure that the ejector / extractor selection screws are rightly aligned and seated and have taken a look at the ejector timing cams in the forend too but nothing stands out as being wrong but then I'm no gunsmith. A round of 100 bird sporting + another box or so at Crows and Pigeons hasn't improved anything - just incase anything was gummed up (it sat unused for several years before I bought it - proven by the first 3 shots being misfires - very weak hits on the primers but once loosened has been 100% since). I'm wondering if I have overlooked anything or if there is anything else I should look at? before making a journey to a gunsmith.

 

Thanks for any suggestions...

Paul

[Harnser]

It sounds to me that the ejector is hanging up some where . I have owned a couple of baikals in the past and found them to be excellent guns for the money . Unfortunately the finnish on the ejectors is not as good as it could be . Take the ejectors out of the barrels and give them a serious polishing with fine wet and dry on all the contact points . I bet that this will cure your problem . Best of luck .

 

Harnser .

[the running man]

you found a baikal that ejects? call the british museum mate thats a keeper!!

[UKPoacher]

The stiffness of closing will be directly related to the ejector problem. Try taking them out and checking that they are not bent and then clean them up with wire wool and WD40.

[paul99]

Thankyou all for the suggestions. I took a closer look at the problematic ejector and did find a particularly bad notch / deep scratch on the bevelled part - which may well cause it to hang up rather than slide cleanly - it looked very much like it has been there since the ejector was made - looks to me like an accidental slip when grinding the rest to shape. Anyway I took to it with fine wet and dry and started polishing it out as best I could:

 

I decided before removing the whole notch / scratch to check on progress by assembling the gun first without the ejectors and then with to see if the gun was now opening smoother and to see if it was only the ejectors were to blame for being stiff and that's where the plan fell apart...

 

Leaving out the ejectors the first time, I assembled the gun and broke it open then closed it back up which was nice and smooth and all looks good so I thought I better repeat opening and closing but all of a sudden everything is seriously stiff - much stiffer than it had been and a nasty grating sound as I only just manage to get the gun open . Clearly something isn't right and the nice new scratches on the lumps and inside the action prove it :o

 

Really can't for the life of me work out how it's even possible for the lumps to fowl the insides upon closing like this - and a real mystery why its suddenly happened now - I've not at this point done anything but assemble the gun without the ejectors and sprayed a little silicone spray on the ejector rods / triggers sat at the bottom of the action . First thought was a bit of grit must have stuck to the lumps but theres no sign of any - out to the shed to give it a blast of compressed air just incase. Re-assemble the gun, closes fine, opens + closes fine once then twice - great must have be right about a bit of grit... but the third time same horrid scraping and stiffness . I've broken the gun down checked for obvious grit / cause and blown it out with the airline over and over but the pattern repeats itself - opens smoothly a few times then gradually grinds to a halt .

There's no play or apparent wear on the hinge pin - which as far as I can see is about the only thing that could cause this new problem? anyway I've all but given up on being able to do anything with it myself and so it seems a visit to the gunsmith is definately on the cards now :o

Paul

[MC]

The scratches on the action sides are caused by some grit getting in there while you have been shooting. Possibly stuck to some grease and turning into grinding paste.

 

The ejector should slide in and out without the spring behind it without any sticking or binding. It may be just a bit of dirt etc in the guides. If it does slide in and out then put a light smear of grease on the guides and reassemble. If it does stick then black it in a candle flame and slide it in and out once and gently remove the metal where you see the soot has been rubbed off.

 

ALso check the sears in the forend metal and make sure they are working freely.

[pigglet]

I have/had an issue with mine in which the ejector would only partly eject the spent shell.

It was/is the little L shaped ejector kicker on mine. The problem I'm having is that the importer is that I ordered a new pair of kickers in January from York guns. They've managed to lose my original kickers and I still haven't recieved the new ones

[Steve'o]

Really can't for the life of me work out how it's even possible for the lumps to fowl the insides upon closing like this - and a real mystery why its suddenly happened now - I've not at this point done anything but assemble the gun without the ejectors and sprayed a little silicone sy on the ejectoprar rods / triggers sat at the bottom of the action . First thought was a bit of grit must have stuck to the lumps but theres no sign of any - out to the shed to give it a blast of compressed air just incase. Re-assemble the gun, closes fine, opens + closes fine once then twice - great must have be right about a bit of grit... but the third time same horrid scraping and stiffness . I've broken the gun down checked for obvious grit / cause and blown it out with the airline over and over but the pattern repeats itself - opens smoothly a few times then gradually grinds to a halt .

There's no play or apparent wear on the hinge pin - which as far as I can see is about the only thing that could cause this new problem? anyway I've all but given up on being able to do anything with it myself and so it seems a visit to the gunsmith is definately on the cards now

Paul

 

 

Silicone Spray think its ok to spray on cloth and wipe action off , but definitely not a a lubricant as it cause the wear u are seeing .

 

It has no lubricant properties for metal to metal. If used, it will cause galling and seizing up.

 

Read link below

 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread...ne+grease+metal

 

Cheers

 

Steve

Edited May 5, 2010 by Steve'o

[paul99]

Really can't for the life of me work out how it's even possible for the lumps to fowl the insides upon closing like this - and a real mystery why its suddenly happened now - I've not at this point done anything but assemble the gun without the ejectors and sprayed a little silicone sy on the ejectoprar rods / triggers sat at the bottom of the action . First thought was a bit of grit must have stuck to the lumps but theres no sign of any - out to the shed to give it a blast of compressed air just incase. Re-assemble the gun, closes fine, opens + closes fine once then twice - great must have be right about a bit of grit... but the third time same horrid scraping and stiffness . I've broken the gun down checked for obvious grit / cause and blown it out with the airline over and over but the pattern repeats itself - opens smoothly a few times then gradually grinds to a halt .

There's no play or apparent wear on the hinge pin - which as far as I can see is about the only thing that could cause this new problem? anyway I've all but given up on being able to do anything with it myself and so it seems a visit to the gunsmith is definately on the cards now

Paul

 

 

 

Silicone Spray think its ok to spray on cloth and wipe action off , but definitely not a a lubricant as it cause the wear u are seeing .

 

It has no lubricant properties for metal to metal. If used, it will cause galling and seizing up.

 

Read link below

 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread...ne+grease+metal

 

Cheers

 

Steve

 

Thankyou very much for the PM + info Steve - I was just finishing off my lunch before making the journey to the gunsmith when I noticed the PM and you are bang on it was the silicone spray that did it a quick blast of wd40 as a test and problem solved the gun is back to normal - all be it with the one ejector still playing up - but now I can see the major jamming issue is no longer an issue at all I can go back to working on it again. It's really amazing that the silicone spray caused the scraping and galling in those pictures above but it did and that's a lesson learned for sure. It's odd though used on stiff door hinges, rimlocks and door bolts it's remarkable stuff clearly though it's no good on more precision made metal parts. The amount of friction that quick spray of slicone generated almost defies belief - I still can barely believe it. Anyway I'm a little happier now that's for sure, I will get back to fiddling with the ejector this evening. Thanks again for the help - I'd never have got to the bottom of that without...

Paul.

[Steve'o]

Thankyou very much for the PM + info Steve - I was just finishing off my lunch before making the journey to the gunsmith when I noticed the PM and you are bang on it was the silicone spray that did it a quick blast of wd40 as a test and problem solved the gun is back to normal - all be it with the one ejector still playing up - but now I can see the major jamming issue is no longer an issue at all I can go back to working on it again. It's really amazing that the silicone spray caused the scraping and galling in those pictures above but it did and that's a lesson learned for sure. It's odd though used on stiff door hinges, rimlocks and door bolts it's remarkable stuff clearly though it's no good on more precision made metal parts. The amount of friction that quick spray of slicone generated almost defies belief - I still can barely believe it. Anyway I'm a little happier now that's for sure, I will get back to fiddling with the ejector this evening. Thanks again for the help - I'd never have got to the bottom of that without...

Paul.

 

Your Welcome

 

Odd stuff silicone oil or grease never used it, but its mess up a lot air rifles

 

I have a Baikal SxS and the ejectors stick on that, I took them out looked like someone had made

them with an angle grinder lol, still polishing mine.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[paul99]

Well I finally got around to doing a little bit more work on the ejectors and I'm getting somewhere at long last. Having polished up the bottom ejector and lubricated it it's sliding very smoothly and much of the stiffness closing the gun is gone - it's by no means perfect but it will do for now. Getting them moving so freely and testing them though has highlighed what I now believe to be the main cause of the problem - premautre ejection. I picked up a set of alloy snap caps and you can clearly see by marks on the breech block and rim of the snap caps that the bottom ejector is firing too early / before the gun is fully broken. The empties are hitting the breech block and bouncing back and it happens so quickly you can barely see it - it simply looks like the ejectors haven't got enough power to kick the cartridges.

 

Realising this I took another look at the ejector sear as I believe that is the part responsible for the timing and low and behold it looks like someone has been playing with it in the past...

Comparing the top (foreground /lower in photos) and bottom (background /upper in photos) ejector sears side by side...

 

 

I lined up the pin holes as close as possible and it's clear to see that the shape of the bottom sear has been altered so that the slope leading off it's edge is shorter than that found on the top unaltered sear, the length of the sear though remains unaltered as far as I can tell. Does anyone know what effect the steeper slope would have on the ejector timing? (my guess is that it would trigger ejection sooner?) being as I can't really make the ejector on the bottom barrell any worse I'm tempted to carefully shape the bottom sear to match the top sear (lengthen the angled part to suit) but would this have the desired effect of delaying ejector timing or would the opposite occur and make it worse?

 

Would appreciate any advice from those in the know before I go any further....

 

Thanks

Paul

[MC]

I was trained to work on Baikals by the russians in the late 80's. The sears you have are indivual to each gun and are timed to suit each ejector.

 

The steep slope has nothing to do with the timing. This is controlled by the step on the opposite side to the slope and also the rounded bottom of the sear that is just out of view in the first picture.

 

If the ejector is early and the snap cap is hitting the breech then you need to take a small ammount off the rounded bottom section. This only needs to be a very small ammount, no more than a couple of strokes of a file.

 

Then refit and check with a snap cap. If it is still early then repeat. If it becomes late or not ejecting then you need to take a small ammount off the step under the steep slope, but if you are careful you won't reach this point.

 

90% of the guns that came into England while I worked for Budget Guns and Tackle in the late eighties needed the ejector timing doing before the guns were sold.

 

I hope this helps, if you are unsure and want a bit more advice then PM me and I will let you have a phone number. I have a Baikal here so i can go through it with you on the phone.

 

If you take the forend wood off and fit the gun together and then fire it with a snap cap in it and open it slowly you will see how the ejector works.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

[paul99]

I was trained to work on Baikals by the russians in the late 80's. The sears you have are indivual to each gun and are timed to suit each ejector.

 

The steep slope has nothing to do with the timing. This is controlled by the step on the opposite side to the slope and also the rounded bottom of the sear that is just out of view in the first picture.

 

If the ejector is early and the snap cap is hitting the breech then you need to take a small ammount off the rounded bottom section. This only needs to be a very small ammount, no more than a couple of strokes of a file.

 

Then refit and check with a snap cap. If it is still early then repeat. If it becomes late or not ejecting then you need to take a small ammount off the step under the steep slope, but if you are careful you won't reach this point.

 

90% of the guns that came into England while I worked for Budget Guns and Tackle in the late eighties needed the ejector timing doing before the guns were sold.

 

I hope this helps, if you are unsure and want a bit more advice then PM me and I will let you have a phone number. I have a Baikal here so i can go through it with you on the phone.

 

If you take the forend wood off and fit the gun together and then fire it with a snap cap in it and open it slowly you will see how the ejector works.

 

Cheers

 

Martin

 

Hi Martin,

 

Thankyou very much for your help , I followed your advice above and have got the ejector working perfectly - I couldn't be happier . It probably took me 10x longer than it would have taken you but I was paranoid about taking too much off in one go so used a very fine swiss file and repeated the filing around a dozen times before I got it just right . Anyway the gun will get a thorough testing tommorrow on a 100 bird sporting fun day with a few friends.

 

Thanks again for all the help offered, I hope one day I can repay the favour...

Paul.

Edited May 15, 2010 by paul99

[paul99]

I hate to revive such an old thread but just recently I heard off another member who was having the same ejector timing problem with his Baikal and got in touch for some advice. I could only repeat what MC offered in his replies above but it seemed that was enough for the guy to get his Baikal ejector timing sorted too . Not being the best at clearly explaining things I took a quick photo to illustrate MCs advice which I had intended doing nearly a year ago but never did . Anyway, now I have been reminded I thought that I might as well put the image here too just incase it can help out anyone else having trouble....

 

Edited January 14, 2011 by paul99

[paul99]

Arghhh double post

Edited January 14, 2011 by paul99

[geriatric]

I have an Old Baikal shotgun and I have a problem with an ejector but it is the lug on the ejector which is worn and not engaging with it's sear. However, when searching for an answer I came this bit of info which may be of use:

 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_select_ejectors_on_Baikal_shotgun

 

 

Hope it's of use.

[littlerob]

im not saying this is the problem but a friends baikal donw the same not letting the bottme cartright out the gun shope said clean the ejectors out turn them on and off and finalytake the forend of and tighten the screws up in the forend hay presto been magic every since you can even hear a propper click noise when there working

[storme37]

how do you set the ejectors to on and off

[littlerob]

open the gun up as you wher going to drope cartridges in andwhen it open look fron on top of the barrel not to confuse you but fron the rib near the hinge pin you should seen a little screw slot it will only turn a little way left to right one sew is on the felt and one on the right side of the barrel

[storme37]

thank you

[littlerob]

have a peek thought the manual page 12 shows the ejector on and off http://www.eaacorp.com/Manuals/IZH-27-Manual.PDF

[Bwise]

How do I even remove the ejectors on a baikal?

[Gunman]

Carefully ! 

[Velocette]

Quite right !  If its the O/U gun you are meaning, Remove the barrel from the action and firmly press the ejectors against a handy tree or bench. With a suitable screwdriver gently prise up the other end of the ejector until it will slide out when you carefully release the pressure of the tree etc. Repeat with the opposite side and there you have it. I find that cutting two or three coils off the springs makes the gun far easier to open and the ejection less savage. After polishing and lubricating  simply push the ejector and spring firmly back into place.