Buzzard

[anser2]

Piebob There has been one documented case of a common buzzard attacking a human ( it was on the TV a few years ago ) , but its the only one I have heard of and even while closely inspecting the nest I have never had a buzzard attack or indeed come anyway near me. I guess there might be the odd mental one. I have had tawny owls attack me however on many occasions while close to the nest. And one guy lost his eye to one while trying to take photos at the nest. I have to be very careful approaching the nests of common buzzards as they are very shy and desert very easily. On approaching the nest the adult usually slips off unnoticed ( I always have watchers surrounding the wood ) and fly’s off up to 1\4 a mile away and will not return for a long period of time. On occasion a pair will rise up 5-100 feet above the nest and call wile circling. Later when the young are close to fledging the adults will circle low above the nest calling to the chicks. As for the opinion of some have of "experts" all I can say is watch your buzzards day after day for in my case in excess of 6000 hours , pick up their pellets and dissect them and then you will have a true idea of the habits of the species. I can assure you I have my eyes open and stand by what I have said , in Norfolk buzzards are not a threat to gamebirds.

 

A couple of years ago I studied a pair and their 3 young who bred in a wood where 500 pheasants were reared for several weeks . The young were attracted to the newly put down poults , but never took one while I was there. They did however attempt to catch the rodents that came to the feed bins , but being youngsters never had a lot of luck. If any keeper feels there might be a risk , the answer is simple , cover the release pen with netting. In contrast I see 100s of dead pheasants hit by cars on the road, mainly the fault of the keeper for siteing the release pen in the wrong place. Quite close to me at Walsingham there is a release pen 200yards from a narrow country lane. the pheasants come out of the pen down a slope and cross the road to get crops on the other side. By late September the whole road is covered with the rotting squashed remains of 100s of dead pheasants for a 100 yards around the crossing point. A simple rabbit fence would cure the problem , but its been going on for years. I bet the keeper blames the buzzards for taking them.

[CharlieT]

We have a net on our release pen which we keep on until about a month before shooting, this way the pheasant poults grow enough that Buzzards aren't as much of a problem. However, they still occassionaly take a fully grown bird. Do any of you ever think that keepers will be ever to control the Buzzards again? I by no means would call myself an expert but I think the population is getting out of hand.

 

 

I doubt it very much as the RSPB and all the raptor lovers have brain washed the public and the powers that be that raptors only take vermin and refuse to believe what happens in the real world.

 

You are quite correct, numbers are getting far to high in some areas and are in desperate need of control.

 

I doubt though that I will live long enough to see the day.

[Chard]

The fact that some people can't seem to grasp is that the vast majority of the public don't give a toss about the wellbeing of a shoot.

 

They do, however, give a toss about the diversity of the countryside.

 

I can guarantee that any support or tolerance that field sports enjoys from the public will evaporate overnight if a free-for-all starts "culling" birds of prey. Once the "I wanna kill stuff" brigade get started, there's no chance of a limited cull. They won't know when to stop and it will only stop when the species are eradicated from the country again.

 

That's why I don't think it will happen, because I don't think anybody can be trusted to be balanced about it.

 

I would suggest that the last thing that field sports needs is the **** publicity that this would bring.

 

Gamebird rearing concerns seem to think that they ought to be allowed to operate with no competition at all.

I flog travel insurance. Can I "cull" a few of the other companies out there who are standing in the way of my profits?

[unclemicky]

Yep seen it with my own eyes , a buzzard has landed on both my plastic and those foam fud decoys , does look spectacular though

[CharlieT]

Chard

 

I was not thinking of it just from a game rearing point of view.

 

I hate to think how many ground nesting birds are taken. You can see 40+ quartering the moorland round here in the spring, if each one takes a Skylark chick a day it does not bear thinking about.

 

I do however believe that in areas such as this where hundreds of thousands of gamebirds are put down that such a prolific "artificial" supply of food has a direct relation to the high number of Buzzards we have.

 

The trouble is that they have to eat out of season when there are no pheasants on the ground.

[Chard]

Chard

 

I was not thinking of it just from a game rearing point of view.

 

I hate to think how many ground nesting birds are taken. You can see 40+ quartering the moorland round here in the spring, if each one takes a Skylark chick a day it does not bear thinking about.

 

I do however believe that in areas such as this where hundreds of thousands of gamebirds are put down that such a prolific "artificial" supply of food has a direct relation to the high number of Buzzards we have.

 

The trouble is that they have to eat out of season when there are no pheasants on the ground.

 

 

But they are natural predators.

 

Before myxomatosis/persecution/DDT and loss of habitat shrank their range to the North and West, they were common all over the UK and are becoming so again.

 

Songbird populations should be able to withstand natural predation. What is decimating songbird population (in my opinion) are cats (not natural) grey squirrels (not endemic species) loss of insects due to spraying (biggest cause of population decline), loss of weed seeds due to spraying, and loss of habitat and other physical strains put on them by humans (disturbance etc).

 

I reckon the insect thing is the biggest problem. It's pitiful how insect populations have crashed in this country. I can remember when numbers of all insect types were much higher than they are now. I've said it before, but the biggest pointer is the fact that you hardly ever have to wash them off your windscreen in the summer now. I remember when you needed to do it daily.

[ollie]

The fact that some people can't seem to grasp is that the vast majority of the public don't give a toss about the wellbeing of a shoot.

 

They do, however, give a toss about the diversity of the countryside.

 

I can guarantee that any support or tolerance that field sports enjoys from the public will evaporate overnight if a free-for-all starts "culling" birds of prey. Once the "I wanna kill stuff" brigade get started, there's no chance of a limited cull. They won't know when to stop and it will only stop when the species are eradicated from the country again.

 

That's why I don't think it will happen, because I don't think anybody can be trusted to be balanced about it.

 

I would suggest that the last thing that field sports needs is the **** publicity that this would bring.

 

Gamebird rearing concerns seem to think that they ought to be allowed to operate with no competition at all.

I flog travel insurance. Can I "cull" a few of the other companies out there who are standing in the way of my profits?

 

I'm not suggesting a mass cull!!! What I am suggesting is what happens at some fisheries with cormorants; the gamekeeper could put in an application to Defra to cull a certain amount each year until they are back under control.

 

I know what you are saying, some people would take the **** and try to eradicate them. Personally I like to see the odd few in the countryside but not the kind of numbers we have at the minute.

 

Regarding the songbird population; I think the Sparrowhawks aren't as much of an issue around our area, it is more the volume of cars on the country roads.

[harveykeitel22]

was in my tractor corn carting, and i see with my own eyes a buzzard swoop down and it took the pheasant poult out,

[smurf]

got 2 pairs on my permission have seen them take poults ,they tend to sit up a tree & wait for the pheasants to come into the open before taken them, seem to fly straight over the pond where the ducks are & head straight to the pheasant ride !

[Dempy]

Let's hope not, there's plenty of road kill about and I would be surprised if they were a big problem?

 

Great to see them in the East!

 

 

when our poults arive, it is like somebody has opened a McDonalds drive for them! They take about one each a day, we have the ocaisional sparrow hawk problem, but mostly bustards and Owl's when they are small as well

[M ROBSON]

Anser2,

 

I have no doubt you know what you are talking about and have put the hours in to research your findings. To me it proves even more the fact that Buzzards behaviour vary from one region to another.

In none of your posts do you mention Buzzards eating Pigeons? I see them hitting decoys and dead birds on an almost weekly basis. As I said before I've even watched one hit the magnet bird and ignore the dead birds on cradles around it.

 

It's funny you should mention they eat a lot of Crows because up here vertually nothing will eat them. We shoot thousands every year and I've left a few out on stubbles in the past and they just rot away where they are left, not even the Buzzards touch them.

 

Mark.

[bolts]

CD's work for me

[gixer1]

Anser2,

 

I have no doubt you know what you are talking about and have put the hours in to research your findings. To me it proves even more the fact that Buzzards behaviour vary from one region to another.

In none of your posts do you mention Buzzards eating Pigeons? I see them hitting decoys and dead birds on an almost weekly basis. As I said before I've even watched one hit the magnet bird and ignore the dead birds on cradles around it.

 

It's funny you should mention they eat a lot of Crows because up here vertually nothing will eat them. We shoot thousands every year and I've left a few out on stubbles in the past and they just rot away where they are left, not even the Buzzards touch them.

 

Mark.

 

 

Completely agree Mark, We are swarmed with Buzzards up here (and Red Kite's for that matter) to the point it's getting silly, they seem to use a release pen as a training ground for thier young on how to drop on a poult! and they are commonly seen in groups of 8 around here...

 

I was lying on a bump Squeeking a fox in about a month ago and just about filled my undercrackers when a Buzzard walked up the hill and then flapped up infront of me! oddly enough I must need to change my squeek as just after the Buzzard had flown away I turned round to see a nice buck behind me... :look: (must've sounded like a young'un)

 

different places obviously bring about behavior changes...

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[ollie]

We put our poults in the release pen on Saturday and every day I have went down since there has been 2 buzzards sitting in the tree beside the pen watching the poults. Luckily enough we have a net covering the pen or I would suspect there would be a few less poults.

[crosshair]

anser2, I am puzzled by your claim of examining Buzzard pellets ?.

I live in an area where a couple of dozen can be seen worming in the local fields.

When they perch on the fence posts the most noticable thing is the long liquid string of excrement that is ejected several feet, I have never seen or heard of Buzzard pellets and neither have my colleagues.

Owls eject pellets and are often collected to dissect in local schools to establish their kills.

Furthermore there are many reliable instances of Buzzards killing full grown farmyard hens in this area, and please don't say they were mistaken and were not Buzzards, they were, and were identified by qualified ornithologists.

One local farm had their entire flock of about forty free range hens killed by Buzzards.

I can personally confirm I have seen them kill full grown hens, the death is slow as the Buzzard holds the chicken down and proceeds to hack at the flesh while it is still alive, at least mercifully, death by a fox is almost instant.

Has anyone else on here seen Buzzard pellets as opposed to a couple of yards of liquid spouting out.

[al4x]

nope but on the subject of taking live birds, we had a pigeon the other day was shot and decided to walk off un noticed as we thought it was dead, just as we spotted it a buzzard neatly landed on it doing the job for us and saving the walk

[Eskdale hawks]

anser2, I am puzzled by your claim of examining Buzzard pellets ?.

I live in an area where a couple of dozen can be seen worming in the local fields.

When they perch on the fence posts the most noticable thing is the long liquid string of excrement that is ejected several feet, I have never seen or heard of Buzzard pellets and neither have my colleagues.

Owls eject pellets and are often collected to dissect in local schools to establish their kills.

Furthermore there are many reliable instances of Buzzards killing full grown farmyard hens in this area, and please don't say they were mistaken and were not Buzzards, they were, and were identified by qualified ornithologists.

One local farm had their entire flock of about forty free range hens killed by Buzzards.

I can personally confirm I have seen them kill full grown hens, the death is slow as the Buzzard holds the chicken down and proceeds to hack at the flesh while it is still alive, at least mercifully, death by a fox is almost instant.

Has anyone else on here seen Buzzard pellets as opposed to a couple of yards of liquid spouting out.

 

ALL Raptors ( Birds of prey) Cough up a pellet (Cast) of undigestable material, once a day, Usually in the morning. "The couple of yards of liquid ", you are refering to is the Mute or slice! This is made up of Fecease, Urates and Urine. If you watch, they will also ruffle their feathers ( Rouse), before flying.

I have to say that I find your comments regarding the chickens interesting. Again here we have "Documented" evidence that the Buzzard "is" taking quarry that it is really not equipped to deal with. Buzzards by their very nature are "lazy" birds. In falconry terms they are stubborn although with persivierence they can be trained to take Rabbits. As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, Given the size of the bird their feet are realitively small compared with those of a Goshawk or Harris Hawk. There by making them "weak" in the foot, and so unable to deal with outsized quarry efficiently. Hence the "slow" death you refer to. Sparrow hawks are the same with pigeon and Magpie but then these are a true Accipiter and are just like minature Goshawks, masterful killing machines! Nature is cruel, you only need to look to the African plains for the, Lions, Hyena and African wild dog ALL disembowel their prey while it is still alive! Or Canada/Alaska to see Orca/Killer whales "playing" with Seal pups before eating it. All slow and painful deaths.

[crosshair]

Eskdale Hawks.

I agree with what you say regarding the Buzzard rising and leaning forward to get rid of their excrement, what you called (Rouse).

With reference to the regurgetating, I would assume that this process depends on their diet.

From numerous observations there has been no evidence locally of regurgetation by Buzzards, refering to literature on this, there is only mention of Owls, but not Buzzards ejecting pellets.

Nature continues to surprise us, and we can only learn by experience, I prefer to rely on experience, rather than by someone with a Mickey Mouse diploma on the environment.

With regards Buzzards killing adult hens, this was during a time when rabbits were abundant, and local farmers like myself were very surprised by the change in their choice of prey, this started about five years ago, but has not happened for the last twelve months that I am aware of.

One writer on here mentioned a Buzzard carrying a full grown rabbit, again from first hand experience a Buzzard struggles with a half grown rabbit, I have seen them try to fly off with a small rabbit when disturbed but usually fails to get off the ground with it.

[Eskdale hawks]

Eskdale Hawks.

I agree with what you say regarding the Buzzard rising and leaning forward to get rid of their excrement, what you called (Rouse).

With reference to the regurgetating, I would assume that this process depends on their diet.

From numerous observations there has been no evidence locally of regurgetation by Buzzards, refering to literature on this, there is only mention of Owls, but not Buzzards ejecting pellets.

Nature continues to surprise us, and we can only learn by experience, I prefer to rely on experience, rather than by someone with a Mickey Mouse diploma on the environment.

With regards Buzzards killing adult hens, this was during a time when rabbits were abundant, and local farmers like myself were very surprised by the change in their choice of prey, this started about five years ago, but has not happened for the last twelve months that I am aware of.

One writer on here mentioned a Buzzard carrying a full grown rabbit, again from first hand experience a Buzzard struggles with a half grown rabbit, I have seen them try to fly off with a small rabbit when disturbed but usually fails to get off the ground with it.

 

Crosshair!

I think you may have misunderstood? The bird does indeed raise its tail and lean forwards to slice,But this is not the "Rouse"! The "Rouse" is completely seperate as all birds of prey go through this routine in preperation for flight. I can assure you that Buzzards do " Cast" a pellet every day. It is common to ALL Raptors, NOT just Owls! It is mentioned in most of the Falconry books that are widely available on the high street. Also on the web- (The Modern Apprentice) is one site that springs to mind. With reference to the Rabbit, it is Like I said The Buzzard, although a realitively big bird in size their feet are small and therefore not equipped to deal with large prey items. I don't have the "Micky mouse diploma on the environment", but I do have experience with birds of prey, being a practicing Falconer, built up over years of observations and practical, hands on experience. I can assure you they deffinately do "Cast" a pellet. With the exception of Owls, ( Owls don't have a crop), If a bird doesn't "Cast" then there is usually something wrong, if a bird is under condition ie: Lacking in nutrition or suffering from a heavy parasitic burden, leading to a loss of condition, then the crop may stop working properly. Fresh food goes in on top of old food and all the undigestable matter gets compounded. The result is a condition known as an "Impacted crop"!

Hope this helps?

Edited August 10, 2010 by Eskdale hawks

[anser2]

Quote “Raptor pellets are the indigestible parts of the prey (e.g. fur, bones, feathers) that are regurgitated through the oesophagus after a meal. When pulled apart and identified, the tightly packed contents of a pellet can provide information about the characteristics of a species’ diet. Thus pellet analysis is a useful, non-invasive tool in raptor ecology studies, especially for understanding the dietary habits of secretive and/or wide-ranging raptors”.

http://www.natural-research.org/environmen...lyses-scotland/

 

Meal to pellet intervals in 14 species of captive raptors*

 

G.E. Duke, O.A. Evanson and A. Jegers

Department of Veterinary Biology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, St. Paul, MN 55101, U.S.A.

Received 15 January 1975.

Available online 10 November 2005.

 

Abstract

1. In owls, meal to pellet interval was directly related to meal weight and owls normally cast 1 pellet per meal; egestion of pellets in hawks apparently was associated with “lights-on” in the holding rooms regardless of quantity eaten and hawks normally egested less than 1 pellet per meal.

2. All of the smallest raptors digested meals and egested pellets more rapidly than the larger raptors.

3. The correlation between meal weight and pellet weight was only slightly better for owls than for hawks, but, because owl pellets contained more of the bones of their prey, they represented a greater proportion of the meal from which they originated.

 

 

If anyone doubts that buzzards produce pellets research the two above online articles.As for finding them in the field its very difficult except for under their nests. Which should only be visited with a licence .

 

 

As for raptors taking chickens I can only think they must be very short of food to attempt this. Between two of my survey woods ( Barney in Norfolk ) these is a free range flock of chickens from 6 weeks to 18 weeks old ( for meat production ). The farmer also rears young geese. Buzzards must pass over the chickens dozens of times every day , but the farmer has never reported any problems. However the farmer does have frequent problems with foxes and sometimes badgers which will leaver open the chicken hutch at night. Right alongside another Wood at Swanton Novers a woman keeps bantams and again has never lost a chicken to raptors , but has lost a lot of ornamental pigeons to goshawks and sparrowhawks.

 

I do not doubt that some of you on here have seen game taken by raptors , but there is a very good quotation in Collins Bird Guide , " DO NOT ASSUME YOU CAN ID ALL LARGE RAPTORS IN FLIGHT - EVER " . I know some of you will say you know the difference between buzzards , harriers and goshawks and no doubt a few will be good at splitting the birds up, but in the moment of stooping on prey without the aid of a high power telescope ID can be probmatical to say the least. I have been watching them for 40 years and still on occasion make mistakes. I would suspect the chicken killer is more likely to be a goshawk , rather than common buzzard.

 

As for buzzards taking large rabbits , its a fairly frequent habbit in the population I study during the nesting period. A buzzard needs a breezy day for the lift needed to rise of the ground with a rabbit in its tallons. Has anyone on here seen a buzzard flying with a gamebird ?

 

My experiance of common buzzards is limited to East Anglia , but i still stand by my statement that I have never seen common buzzards take game birds in my area.

Edited August 10, 2010 by anser2

[anser2]

Mark , I sometimes have buzzards walking around in my decoy pattern , but never had them rake any live birds. In Norfolk we have only had breeding common buzzards for the last 20 years. When they first arrived all the pigeons would panic at the sight of one. But last year we had 3 hunting low over a stubble for voles while 200 pigeons fed below them. The pigeons would scatter a few yards when a buzzard stooped on a vole , but stayed on the field. This spring I was shooting pigeons comming onto an old stubble all afternoon while 2 buzzards hunted the same field. Result 100+ pigeons in the bag.

 

We had a pair of goshawks turn up last spring in one of my woods and the pigeons rapidly became very flighty. As the goshawk entered one side of the wood the pigeons fled out the other side.

[Bing-Bong]

Although actively involved in shooting, one of the subjects that dismays me everytime it rears its ugly head is the subject of raptors and their effect on game rearing. On our shoot we have populations of Buzzards, Marsh Harriers, Sparrowhawks, Kestrels along with Tawny owls, Barn Owls, Long Eared Owls and Little Owls. We also have seasonal visitors like the Hobby and Rough Legged Buzzard. Yes we do lose poults, mostly to the spars, but see this as a small loss that is easily rectified by the release of a few more. The sighting of these magnificent birds far outweighs the cost of a few poults.

What I think we need to remember is that we are the guests in this fabulous ecosystem and would it not be far better to work alongside and actively promote a positive attitude toward these birds, which in return would gain us huge amounts of public support rather than the negative that we have become used to of late.

All to often you read of individuals who take things into their own hands in regard to dealing with raptors or other unwanted protected species which does make the press, putting it out into the public domain, what sort of image does this portray? Certainly not one which we would like to hang around us, mud sticks, public opinion is easily lost and hard to regain. The lobbying of government for the legal means to control numbers is almost tantamount to putting our heads in the anti's noose so to speak. In these days of environmental awareness and public access to the countryside we must be seen to be ambassadors in the rural environment not dictators.

Now I sit back and await the public stoning, Hey Anser2, have the Montagues been successful at Creake this year, havnt been up your way for a while, since ABN stopped having me do the bird control at the mill. There used to be a pair of Merlins that came in from the pineline at the rear and play with my peregrine for a while. Fantastic to watch.

To those who are reading this, I shoot everyday holding both shotgun and firearm licences, I am a proffesional falconer employed in the pest control industry specialising in bird control, am a supporter of the hunt so in no way label me as an anti.

[Kit]

Put an eight inch nail on each of the pen posts to stop them perching

Put a net over the initial relerease pen

Put an Eagle owl decoy by the pen but move it around

CDs in the pen help but again move them

[ollie]

Although actively involved in shooting, one of the subjects that dismays me everytime it rears its ugly head is the subject of raptors and their effect on game rearing. On our shoot we have populations of Buzzards, Marsh Harriers, Sparrowhawks, Kestrels along with Tawny owls, Barn Owls, Long Eared Owls and Little Owls. We also have seasonal visitors like the Hobby and Rough Legged Buzzard. Yes we do lose poults, mostly to the spars, but see this as a small loss that is easily rectified by the release of a few more. The sighting of these magnificent birds far outweighs the cost of a few poults.

What I think we need to remember is that we are the guests in this fabulous ecosystem and would it not be far better to work alongside and actively promote a positive attitude toward these birds, which in return would gain us huge amounts of public support rather than the negative that we have become used to of late.

All to often you read of individuals who take things into their own hands in regard to dealing with raptors or other unwanted protected species which does make the press, putting it out into the public domain, what sort of image does this portray? Certainly not one which we would like to hang around us, mud sticks, public opinion is easily lost and hard to regain. The lobbying of government for the legal means to control numbers is almost tantamount to putting our heads in the anti's noose so to speak. In these days of environmental awareness and public access to the countryside we must be seen to be ambassadors in the rural environment not dictators.

Now I sit back and await the public stoning, Hey Anser2, have the Montagues been successful at Creake this year, havnt been up your way for a while, since ABN stopped having me do the bird control at the mill. There used to be a pair of Merlins that came in from the pineline at the rear and play with my peregrine for a while. Fantastic to watch.

To those who are reading this, I shoot everyday holding both shotgun and firearm licences, I am a proffesional falconer employed in the pest control industry specialising in bird control, am a supporter of the hunt so in no way label me as an anti.

 

Yes I agree with the fact that these birds are good to watch in the wild and it is a success that they are thriving. However, for a small syndicate like ours, we can't afford to lose too many birds. Also what about the Sparrowhawks which are absolutely hammering the songbird population? I know that I am possibly only seeing this argument from the one side, but in my opinion there are too many Buzzards in our area and a lot of this is down to RSPB releasing them.

[Chard]

Although actively involved in shooting, one of the subjects that dismays me everytime it rears its ugly head is the subject of raptors and their effect on game rearing. On our shoot we have populations of Buzzards, Marsh Harriers, Sparrowhawks, Kestrels along with Tawny owls, Barn Owls, Long Eared Owls and Little Owls. We also have seasonal visitors like the Hobby and Rough Legged Buzzard. Yes we do lose poults, mostly to the spars, but see this as a small loss that is easily rectified by the release of a few more. The sighting of these magnificent birds far outweighs the cost of a few poults.

What I think we need to remember is that we are the guests in this fabulous ecosystem and would it not be far better to work alongside and actively promote a positive attitude toward these birds, which in return would gain us huge amounts of public support rather than the negative that we have become used to of late.

All to often you read of individuals who take things into their own hands in regard to dealing with raptors or other unwanted protected species which does make the press, putting it out into the public domain, what sort of image does this portray? Certainly not one which we would like to hang around us, mud sticks, public opinion is easily lost and hard to regain. The lobbying of government for the legal means to control numbers is almost tantamount to putting our heads in the anti's noose so to speak. In these days of environmental awareness and public access to the countryside we must be seen to be ambassadors in the rural environment not dictators.

Now I sit back and await the public stoning, Hey Anser2, have the Montagues been successful at Creake this year, havnt been up your way for a while, since ABN stopped having me do the bird control at the mill. There used to be a pair of Merlins that came in from the pineline at the rear and play with my peregrine for a while. Fantastic to watch.

To those who are reading this, I shoot everyday holding both shotgun and firearm licences, I am a proffesional falconer employed in the pest control industry specialising in bird control, am a supporter of the hunt so in no way label me as an anti.

 

 

Excellent post chap

 

I regret it's a waste of breath though. I've tried this angle. There are those that want everything dead if it's not a ******* Pheasant. :blink:

 

They're too blind to see that the public don't care about their shoot and they refuse to accept that they should share the countryside with birds that belong there.

 

Sparrowhawks have always been there "hammering" the songbirds (it's called natural predation). I don't accept that natural predators are bringing about the decline in songbird numbers, but we've been here before, soooooo many times

 

It's academic anyway, the law is the law.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Chard