History of Coaching

[T.C.]

Does anyone know anything about the history of coaching competition clayshooting in the UK as distinct from game shooting . When did it start ? Who started it ? How did it develop to where we are now?If you can help please send me whatever you can .

[COACH]

What an interesting question.

Why do you want to know ?

Being a coach myself, I would like to know a bit more about the history of it as well.

[clayman]

In the early CPSA days they were based at Edmonton courtesy of Eley, and a group of seniors there decided there was no definition for competitive clays method and teaching.

 

Taking on board that they should form a coaching sub-committee, the decided remit was to define clay competition method and construct a course to put a coach in every club.

 

To decide the basis for clay method, they engaged Loughborough University, and a windy weekend was spent running through the dynamics of shooting with the Sports Science faculty these.

 

The result was that "pull away" method ( renamed there-after as CPSA Method) was the key and the CPSA courses were born from this exercise. This was the method advocated by Clarrie Wilson, one of the old school coaches and part of the original group.

 

The initial group included Roger Silcox, who produced some really good VHS Videos sponsored by Teachers Whiskey in the late '80s.

 

The clay coaching was dominated by the "Gang of Four" based at John Topliss's Stilehollow shooting ground for many years. Clarrie Wilson, Sam Wilkinson, John T and Sam W formed the group and brought formal qualifications into English clay coaching.

 

From these early beginnings, the CPSA has improved, expanded, and revamped the courses into the CPSA Academy today.

[paulos]

Has anybody a copy of the paper produced by Loughborough? It must be quite flawed in order to conclude that "The Method" is the only technique that one may need to learn. (As I have been informed when chatting to a senior referee). I'd be interested to read about how this study was conducted and on what range of targets.

[Emmsy]

lol probably skeet

lets be fair, target have changed dramatically over the last 20 years

[clayman]

Has anybody a copy of the paper produced by Loughborough? It must be quite flawed in order to conclude that "The Method" is the only technique that one may need to learn. (As I have been informed when chatting to a senior referee). I'd be interested to read about how this study was conducted and on what range of targets.

 

When I was myself going through the CPSA training program in the '90s, this "Loughborough" reference came up as justification for the idea at the time that their was only one method supported by the CPSA.

 

In 2000 I took a Masters Degree in Sports Science at South bank Uni, and specialised in shooting dynamics. As part of my research I contacted Loughborough for the paper, but found that in fact the CPSA had only invited the lecturer to attend their session, and there was in fact no published paper on the subject. I did speak to the lecturer involved, and he recalled a windy weekend in a field shooting clays - but nothing more.

 

My conclusion was that the statement being made, viz, that the CPSA method was supported by a scientific study at Loughborough, was in fact untrue, and the validity of Method shooting was therefore only the opinion of the Gang of Four.

 

In my 5 years as Training manger for the CPSA 2002-7, I divorced the concept that had previously been applied, that there was only one method, viz CPSA /Pull away.

 

While this remained the core teaching for L-1 ( Old Club Coach), all L-2 and L-3 in the later years of the course development by Stewart Meinert and myself, were taught that all advanced coaches should be aware of and teach all methods as appropriate to the pupil and discipline.

 

This was in investigated by a practical seminar by the Institute of Clay Shooting Instructors, and while there was not universal agreement amongst the senior coaches, we defined the methods as:

 

Corporate swing through / smoke trail ( as a non-method at competition level to be identified and eliminated from a shooters style)

Controlled swing through.

Pull away AKA CPSA method - the initial training for clays and fall back for tricky targets

Maintained lead - for specific target types, and ESK

Move Mount Shoot style, as per Bidwell - I spent a full day with Biddy to identify if his named method justified being categorised as a method in its own right, or if it was contained within other methods. I concluded it was a defined method to be taught as suc, but it was not a universal method that could be applied to all targets. It falls down on quartering and some other target presentations.

Ambush or spot shooting, for specific target types.

 

All the above gun up or gun down, making a total of 5 acceptable methods in two mounts. All of these were analysed and defined into the L-2 tutor manuals.

 

In addition, we identified discipline specific variations, ie gun hold for OS, and these definitions were being defined for the International courses under development at my leaving.

 

The concept of the pre-millennium teaching of the CPSA clay coaches that there was only one way to shoot clays should now be history, and all more recently L-2 and L-3 qualified coaches should teach all methods as appropriate to the client and the discipline.

 

Remember however, that L-1 coaches have only been qualified to deliver Pull away, and you need L-2 or L-3 if you wish to be taught a variety of methods.

[beretta]

a great read that i always find that the target dictates the method used, and even that can vary slightly depending on speed , angle and distance.

[T.C.]

Clayman , thank you for your post . I was asked by an American coach if I could find out the answers to his questions . He was patricularly interested to know the year when the CPSA started its coaching system . Can you add any more dates to your post ?

Edited August 27, 2010 by T.C.

[Nicky T]

When I was myself going through the CPSA training program in the '90s, this "Loughborough" reference came up as justification for the idea at the time that their was only one Pull away AKA CPSA method - the initial training for clays and fall back for tricky targets

Maintained lead - for specific target types, and ESK

Move Mount Shoot style, as per Bidwell - I spent a full day with Biddy to identify if his named method justified being categorised as a method in its own right, or if it was contained within other methods. I concluded it was a defined method to be taught as suc, but it was not a universal method that could be applied to all targets. It falls down on quartering and some other target presentations.

Ambush or spot shooting, for specific target types.

 

 

i always find that the target dictates the method used, and even that can vary slightly depending on speed , angle and distance.

 

You can't both leave us hanging like that.....

 

....what (in your opinions) are the preferred methods to use for different target types/presentations?

[beretta]

how longs a piece of string

[Nicky T]

how longs a piece of string

 

I've got scissors

[beretta]

These are only methods I would use on targets and Might not be suitable to all depending on the way different people shoot and styles they shoot.

 

Driven. Based on a straight at you driven of medium height.

You can shoot driven any method depending where you shoot it. If you shoot it very early I would swing through until it is just covered.

Midway in its flight, I would pull away (cpsa)

Near overhead I would pull away or maintain lead it.

Heights and speeds can vary but if you have a good basic understanding of this target all methods will still work.

 

Teal. Vertical.

My opinion is either swing through or maintained (ambush)

Very hard target to pull away from as it is slowing down all the time and more liable to miss over the top by this method.

Speed, angle and distance can make a massive difference, fast and far away I would go to swing through every time.

 

Crossers. True crossers at say 35yds and average speed.

Best method is probably pull away as this will put you on the line of the clay leaving you only 2 places to miss, either in front or behind. If your gun fits, its very rare you miss over or under it. You can use maintained or swing through as you have plenty of time so whatever suits your style again. i use maintained.

 

 

Rabbit. Personally I use maintained 90% of the time and aim low if its crossing. Swing through works very well also but I don’t like pull away on this target. It’s a target you don’t want to hesitate pulling the trigger on. Pull away being the slightly slower method ‘could’ lead to a bouncing rabbit being missed, wheras maintained and swing through ‘could’ give you the edge to just alter something before the shot.

 

 

Quartering. Totally dependant on the angle and speed but most I would say are taken swing through or pull away. With maintained I find im slowing the gun waiting for the clay. Always keep the clay on top of the barrel as most people tend to miss over them, do this and its just a matter of lead.

 

 

 

This is the way I approach targets on the whole but might not suit everyones style of shooting so tweaking here and their around it might help.

 

SO MUCH depends on speed, angle and distance of targets.

[Nicky T]

These are only methods I would use on targets and Might not be suitable to all depending on the way different people shoot and styles they shoot.

 

Driven. Based on a straight at you driven of medium height.

You can shoot driven any method depending where you shoot it. If you shoot it very early I would swing through until it is just covered.

Midway in its flight, I would pull away (cpsa)

Near overhead I would pull away or maintain lead it.

Heights and speeds can vary but if you have a good basic understanding of this target all methods will still work.

 

Teal. Vertical.

My opinion is either swing through or maintained (ambush)

Very hard target to pull away from as it is slowing down all the time and more liable to miss over the top by this method.

Speed, angle and distance can make a massive difference, fast and far away I would go to swing through every time.

 

Crossers. True crossers at say 35yds and average speed.

Best method is probably pull away as this will put you on the line of the clay leaving you only 2 places to miss, either in front or behind. If your gun fits, its very rare you miss over or under it. You can use maintained or swing through as you have plenty of time so whatever suits your style again. i use maintained.

 

 

Rabbit. Personally I use maintained 90% of the time and aim low if its crossing. Swing through works very well also but I don’t like pull away on this target. It’s a target you don’t want to hesitate pulling the trigger on. Pull away being the slightly slower method ‘could’ lead to a bouncing rabbit being missed, wheras maintained and swing through ‘could’ give you the edge to just alter something before the shot.

 

 

Quartering. Totally dependant on the angle and speed but most I would say are taken swing through or pull away. With maintained I find im slowing the gun waiting for the clay. Always keep the clay on top of the barrel as most people tend to miss over them, do this and its just a matter of lead.

 

 

 

This is the way I approach targets on the whole but might not suit everyones style of shooting so tweaking here and their around it might help.

 

SO MUCH depends on speed, angle and distance of targets.

 

Now that's more like it

[COACH]

Now that`s all so nice to here from my point of view.

 

It`s so nice to here how other well known coaches do it all and realise that you do exactly the same thing.

I too teach depending on the way the pupil can easiest apply them selves. But know full well the best way to hit certain targets and teach that way for that certain target.

I know coaches not all of them CPSA coaches either that teach only the CPSA method and struggle with pupils on certain targets.

There is no doubt in my mind that in order to be up there with the top boys you have to be able to shoot at least the 3 main methods and be taught the kind of targets to use those methods on.

 

God I love my job.

[Nicky T]

I too teach depending on the way the pupil can easiest apply them selves. But know full well the best way to hit certain targets and teach that way for that certain target.

I know coaches not all of them CPSA coaches either that teach only the CPSA method and struggle with pupils on certain targets.

There is no doubt in my mind that in order to be up there with the top boys you have to be able to shoot at least the 3 main methods and be taught the kind of targets to use those methods on.

 

So does that mean that you agree with Berettas comments regarding the best methods to use on certain targets above?

[COACH]

I do indeed agree.

I personally use swing through on Rabbits though but either can be used, that`s just my personal preference that I can cope with.

[skyshooter]

I do indeed agree.

I personally use swing through on Rabbits though but either can be used, that`s just my personal preference that I can cope with.

How about battues, I find I maintain lead on 99% of them with reasonable success, but most targets matching gun speed and not slowing or stopping gun works when I (rarely!) shoot well. In fact sometimes when shooting at my best am not aware of lead at all evervthing just happens maybe once every 3 yrs!!!

[COACH]

I find that most people that can`t see lead use swing through and have a very fast smooth swing.

As they come away from the bird they pull the trigger seeing no lead.

In fact by the time the message from the brain gets to the finger and you pull the trigger the muzzles have moved at times several feet without you really knowing it. But you can come unstuck on long distance crossers because you will need to see the lead then.

I generally mount the gun with the moving gun mount straight up to 11 o`clock and shoot the battue with maintained lead on a right to left and vice versa. NEVER taking my eyes off the target. I can see nothing but that target.

Edited August 31, 2010 by COACH

[Gordon R]

One of the better threads I have come across. Thanks.

[Emmsy]

well for a round of skeet i use just about then all. station 1- ambush/ spot shooting on both, 2- high pull through from behind low spot, 3- a fast maintained on both, 4- fast maintained on singles and first bird on pair, pull away on the second. 5 and 6 similar to 3 and 2. 7- ambush low and pull away incomer.

that works for me but everyone is different. you really need to find what works for you by experimenting!

[clayman]

You can't both leave us hanging like that.....

 

....what (in your opinions) are the preferred methods to use for different target types/presentations?

 

My personal philosophy is that there is no specific method that any good coach would impose on any pupil for any target. We all have different skill bases, and what works for me may not for you.

 

I teach all methods in a 1/2 day session so my pupil understands them all, then suggest they practice them and apply them individually on targets to suit their own ability. It is wrong, in my view, to suggest there is only one way to deal with anything, and that any one way is the only way for a particular target. A good shooter needs to have fundamental understanding of all the ways they could shoot a target, then explore their own abilities to be able to choose the appropriate way to deal with any particular target presentation.

[clayman]

Clayman , thank you for your post . I was asked by an American coach if I could find out the answers to his questions . He was patricularly interested to know the year when the CPSA started its coaching system . Can you add any more dates to your post ?

 

 

Presently, as I have not worked for the CPSA for three years, I do not have access to the records to be definitive, how-ever, I have recently been invited ( and accepted) the post of SE Regional Senior Coach once again ( I was from the late 90s to 2005 in that position), so I may be able to clarify the exact dates later when I am at HQ again, but what I can report is that the system has been through three generations of teaching.

 

Prior to 1992 there was just Club Coach, Senior, and a Professional coach course. I beleive this started in the late 70's / early 80s. I engaged on the first year of the second generation of courses, renamed L-1; L-2; and L-3 in 1992, and qualified to Senior L-3 in '96. The present system is the redevelopment undertaken by me and Stewart in the period 2004-7.

[wymberley]

Does anyone know anything about the history of coaching competition clayshooting in the UK as distinct from game shooting . When did it start ? Who started it ? How did it develop to where we are now?If you can help please send me whatever you can .

OK, noted the OP but just for interest:

 

Five stands for "away birds", high pheasant towers, grouse butt, rabbits, trapshooting trench, half mile covert for walking up game, driven partridge stands, practice and fitting plates and rifle range.

 

Sounds tasty, doesn't it? Cost?

 

Use of ground and attendance; 52p,

Season ticket for unlimited practice; £2.10,

Cartridges; 75p/100,

Clays; 52p/100.

 

Just gets better, doesn't it? Coaching fees? (COACH and Clayman, please note!)

 

Extra fee for expert services, instruction, coaching, gunfitting with 25, 28 or 30 inch try guns, or test for fit of existing gun; 52p.

 

Coo, fancy some of this, where?

 

Worcester Park Shooting Grounds.

 

Not too far, then. Opening times?

 

1929.

 

**** **!!!

 

Cheers

[COACH]

Sorry mate you`ve lost me now.

[beretta]

lost me a bit but i think its prices and targets from 1929. 90 years ago. i think