What can a Clay Association do for you

[Diceman]

Its not hard to do, surely for clay shooting, get more shoots on board, supply them with regular newsletters / info, encourage them to send at least one member on an instructors course or a safety course, encourage informal competitions, link them up with other local shoots to run informal competitions, send out some badges as prizes for the best shot or the most improved shot that year in the club and so on.

 

Yes, and I think you will find that's pretty much what the CPSA offer for their member clubs.

 

Cat.

 

I think you will find they don't offer any such thing.

 

I help to run a haybale shoot that is a CPSA member and we get nothing in return. Not a thing. Not even a single copy of "Pull". No badges, no visits, no newsletters, no club insurance deals, no correspondence at all other than a renewal letter every 12 months. We have been renewing out of habit but will not be doing so again, there is simply no point.

 

For your information - we have been going since the sixties and never had a shooting related accident.

 

Our stands are level and well designed, the paths are mud free and the cages are built with safety in mind.

 

We have several CPSA A class shots as members who tell us our competition targets are as challenging as any registered shoot. The layout changes every week - if a club shoot is too easy or too hard the membership soon tell us and we try harder next time, and as a result everybody from the juniors to the A class shots are happy. (Youngest member is 8, oldest is well into his 80s)

 

We don't pay out a penny in prize money but we don't charge much for entry either, we hand out some nice trophies and every bit of the profit goes back into the club.

 

Some of our members turn up in brand new Range Rovers, some in Nissan Micras. Some of our members wear camo, some tweed, some jeans and T-shirts. The camo boys tend to be game and pigeon shooters who are used to shooting outside a cage at unpredictable birds with other guns scattered all around them and as such tend to be the most "muzzle aware", safe shooters.

 

New shooters and juniors are given free instruction and hooked up with an experienced squad for at least the first few visits. Most of them end up joining becasue they like it here.

 

And finally...our bacon sarnies are lovely.

 

I regularly use several other haybalers, and they are all pretty much run in the same way. In fact, I enter a once-yearly charity shoot run by a bunch of farmers that is better run, safer and more interesting to shoot than the last 'professional' ground I used.

 

So, you are welcome to you opinion of haybalers but I know that in my experience you are wrong. Perhaps my experience of registered shoots as full of arrogant, unfriendly and whiney guns arguing with 12 year old scorers at overpriced, unwelcoming and unhelpful grounds is wrong too, but I can't say I am going to rush back. So we will probably never meet again (Yes - again! We have met..but you won't remember me, I'm not in your class )

 

As for the original question about what we need from an association - I have lots of opinions on this but to see a concise and well written summary, see Mungler's posts.

 

I can live without the CPSA..but can they live without the subs of people like me?

[David BASC]

Hi Diceman,

 

Your clay shoot sounds very much like mine. We too were affiliated to the CPSA up until last year and had much the same experience, but they did send safety posters if we asked, but no regular contact.

 

We did have an insurance policy through their insurer, but the premiums went up and up so they asked me as a member to look for another deal, This I have done and we are saving about £200a year using a broker that is working closely with BASC on trade insurance for gun shops etc and larger shooting grounds, they have agreed to roll out the facility to smaller shoots too.

 

Now at the moment I don’t want to make too much of this, as I risk being accused of competing with the CPSA, I have no wish to do this, as I say on the contrary I want to work with the CPSA to promote shooting to more people.

 

But if BASC did roll out a package aimed at smaller clay shoots it would be along the lines of a revised version of our existing Group Supporter package:

 

1. The group establishes one named contact to be the liaison point between them and BASC

2. We establish contact between the club and their local BASC regional center and regional team

3. We mail that contact a newsletter every quarter with updates on key issues and a form to request codes of practice or other literature that may be of use or interest to the club

4. Although members of the supporter club would not be members of BASC, and would not thus be individually covered by our insurance (unless of course they were members in their own right) we would make available to them insurance for their club activity via our brokers.

5. If the club is running an open event we can help promote the event to others in the area.

6. We will be happy to discuss BASC prizes for competitions within the club

7. We would survey all the affiliated groups once per year to ask what other services would be useful, and if practical and useful to the majority we would introduce them.

 

We hace a fully qualified Land Agent at BASC, called Paul, he can hlep with planning and related issues.

 

We also have plenty of experience with noise issues can can help give guidance there too

 

As well as this, for clay shoots we can have them upload their shooting dates etc, onto our GoShooting web system - this facilty is, of cours, free.

 

To affiliate as a group supporter club would be £56 a year or there abouts

 

This sort of package may or may not be of use or interest to small shoots, maybe time will tell.

 

David

Edited October 2, 2010 by David BASC

[poontang]

But if BASC did roll out a package aimed at smaller clay shoots it would be along the lines of a revised version of our existing Group Supporter package:

 

1. The group establishes one named contact to be the liaison point between them and BASC

2. We establish contact between the club and their local BASC regional center and regional team

3. We mail that contact a newsletter every quarter with updates on key issues and a form to request codes of practice or other literature that may be of use or interest to the club

4. Although members of the supporter club would not be members of BASC, and would not thus be individually covered by our insurance (unless of course they were members in their own right) we would make available to them insurance for their club activity via our brokers.

5. If the club is running an open event we can help promote the event to others in the area.

6. We will be happy to discuss BASC prizes for competitions within the club

7. We would survey all the affiliated groups once per year to ask what other services would be useful, and if practical and useful to the majority we would introduce them.

 

We hace a fully qualified Land Agent at BASC, called Paul, he can hlep with planning and related issues.

 

We also have plenty of experience with noise issues can can help give guidance there too

 

As well as this, for clay shoots we can have them upload their shooting dates etc, onto our GoShooting web system - this facilty is, of cours, free.

 

To affiliate as a group supporter club would be £56 a year or there abouts

 

This sort of package may or may not be of use or interest to small shoots, maybe time will tell.

 

David

 

That's more like it.

 

I'm sure that if the BASC were to roll out that sort of service a lot of smaller 'haybale' shoots would be interested.

 

David, I can understand why BASC wouldn't want to upset the CPSA but there seems to me to be a huge untapped market out there just looking for a little bit of help, encouragement and recognition. If I were you I'd go in all guns blazing. Afterall, a little competition never hurt anyone...........did it?

[Bagsy]

That's more like it.

 

I'm sure that if the BASC were to roll out that sort of service a lot of smaller 'haybale' shoots would be interested.

 

David, I can understand why BASC wouldn't want to upset the CPSA but there seems to me to be a huge untapped market out there just looking for a little bit of help, encouragement and recognition. If I were you I'd go in all guns blazing. Afterall, a little competition never hurt anyone...........did it?

 

 

I see a lot more support for the BASC then I do the CPSA at the local shoots so I'm sure the existing membership would appreciate it too

[David BASC]

OK,

 

Based on the above posts, and a few pM's from others, I will look to move the project forward, with a vew of working WITH the CPSA if they want to and NOT against them.

 

So if you are involved in a shoot and want to come on board and help devleop the package get in touch with me at david.ilsley@basc.org.uk

 

In the first place lets look at geting a network of clay shoots up and running under this sceme on a no cost basis. i.e. you get in touch with me after you have checked with the club that its oK, and give me the detials of the prime contact, name of the club, number of members and I will set you up under this package FOC

 

This is aimed at small 'bale shoots' not at pemenant clay gorunds who to be honest would be better off under our trade membership package.

 

David

[Mungler]

David, nice darts

 

Obviously all the good ideas are © Mungler Inc.

[JonD]

Thanks to David and BASC for listening to what shooters want as opposed to telling them what they want.

 

I know BASC don't want to compete with the CPSA et al, but by looking to provide something that isn't currently available can only be a good thing.

 

Back to the original question:

 

What would i like from an association? not a list of requirements but suggestions:

 

Experience days for people planning to apply for SGC coving the app process, cabinets, how to choose your first gun etc.

 

New shooter days where you can go along and shoot a round of whatever, ESP, ESK, DTL where you can have the fundamentals explained by a coach and shoot it.

 

Try a new discipline days as above but for people who have been shooting a while.

 

An achievement badge system where you don't need to have done it in competition just witnessed.

 

Web site (i know David mentioned it) where you can find shoots and view results, i found it incredibly hard to find local (non commercial) ones when i started, still finding them now by word of mouth. *sort of (reg'd only)

 

Regional meet ups where you can meet other local shooters.

 

Insurance *

 

Newsletter, either via email or for a small additional fee basic paper printed version.

 

Regular magazine*

 

Advice and support

 

An association that cover the cost of the uniform, badges, skeet vests, travel and entry fees etc for the national teams. I'd happily pay an extra £1 a year purely for that, maybe £2 depending on the membership numbers, most of these people have invested tens of thousands of pounds to get to the level thay are at. I personally think it's disgusting that they have to pay to shoot for their country.

 

The ones with * to my knowledge the CPSA offer.

 

My shooting encompasses CPSA registered shooting, ESK, SKD, ESP but i'm also a member of a couple of smaller clubs and love the relaxed friendly environment and the social side very much, a morning out shooting with friends without the competition atmosphere is great. We have competitions within the club and there are cups awarded in each class. I also shoot straw balers which i enjoy.

 

I'm a member of both the CPSA and BASC but the benefits are very different (unless paying extra for courses etc)..

 

BASC> Insurance, legal support and advice if i need it, parlimentary lobbying, the voice of shooting in the UK, good magazine, members wallet, decent membership card, excellent web site and so much more. I rarely shoot live quarry but will stay a member for the reasons above and to support all aspects of shooting

 

CPSA> Insurance, Magazine, DIY membership card, Outdated website, being able to shoot registered and view results. I'm only a member for the latter, i will renew because i have to to continue shooting registered.

 

Think there is only £4 or £5 difference in subs too.

 

Jon.

[Mungler]

Cat, I think you need to get some more like minded uber elitest CPSA AAA shooters into this thread, because the voice of the majority now appears to be seeping through

 

I'm off to a straw baler at 3 Acres tomorrow; I have no idea how the scores or ranking will pan out but I'm meeting up with friends and I will enjoy it and no one will die from the lack of safety and no one will be able to retire off the prizes.

 

Hell, I might even take the pump action.

[Diceman]

Cat, I think you need to get some more like minded uber elitest CPSA AAA shooters into this thread, because the voice of the majority now appears to be seeping through

 

I'm off to a straw baler at 3 Acres tomorrow; I have no idea how the scores or ranking will pan out but I'm meeting up with friends and I will enjoy it and no one will die from the lack of safety and no one will be able to retire off the prizes.

 

Hell, I might even take the pump action.

 

Mung, it looks as though it will be raining tomorrow, may I suggest you wear the waterproof ghillie suit as well?

[JonD]

Cat, I think you need to get some more like minded uber elitest CPSA AAA shooters into this thread, because the voice of the majority now appears to be seeping through

 

I'm off to a straw baler at 3 Acres tomorrow; I have no idea how the scores or ranking will pan out but I'm meeting up with friends and I will enjoy it and no one will die from the lack of safety and no one will be able to retire off the prizes.

 

Hell, I might even take the pump action.

 

Hope that wasn't aimed at me and i'm sure it wasn't

 

CPSA:

 

ESK-C

SKD-U\C (have to do 1 more)

ESP-UC (have to do 2 more)

 

Club:

 

ESK-AA

ESP-A

 

As for tomorrow.. I'm staying in bed, then DIY as it will be very wet, if it wasn't i'd be at a straw bale :(

 

Jon.

[Dekers]

Oh Dear!

[Catamong]

Cat, I think you need to get some more like minded uber elitest CPSA AAA shooters into this thread, because the voice of the majority now appears to be seeping through :(

 

I'm off to a straw baler at 3 Acres tomorrow; I have no idea how the scores or ranking will pan out but I'm meeting up with friends and I will enjoy it and no one will die from the lack of safety and no one will be able to retire off the prizes.

 

Hell, I might even take the pump action.

 

I hope you have a great time, 'cos that's obviously as good as it's ever going to get for you.

 

Some of us want to achieve a bit more in our chosen sport, and there's nowt wrong with that.

 

As for David's bright idea, well, if it doesn't get stamped on at a higher level in BASC, let's see how things are panning out in 6 months time, I can't see anything he's offering that the CPSA do not already provide.

 

I can tell you one thing, there will still be 25,000 CPSA members out there, if you're a serious clay shooter, you need to be a member, and if you don't like the way things are being run, you set about to change it from within.

 

Cat.

[David BASC]

Morning all,

 

I cannot see why my line manager- the Director of Communications, or his line manager, the Chief Executive, will stamp on any proposal from me / BASC to increase communication between BASC and grass roots shooters.

 

Also, as the facility is going to be no cost to the club, there is no reason that can’t also join or remain affiliated to the CPSA for £55-70 it depends which category they fit into.

 

Remember too that this project really is aimed at the recreational ‘straw bale’ shoots as opposed to the well established shooting grounds that operate on a more commercial basis.

 

For the commercial grounds we have a different Trade Member package which includes access to competitive business insurance, low cost credit / debit card processing, competitive business banking services, discounted transportation services if they are offering RFD facilities and so on, just like ALL our trade members have.

 

I could not agree more that anyone who is serious about clay pigeon shooting and wants to progress at county, national or international level MUST join the CPSA as only the CPSA run the rankings, and team selections.

 

I also agree about changing from within, that’s the way to go.

 

David

[Salopian]

Catamong,

I think you may be missing a very important point, 'there will still be 25,000 CPSA members'.

Yes there will, or considerably less, because we are sick to the back teeth with getting absolutely nothing for our subscription money from HQ at CPSA.

Over twelve months now and they still haven't got their coaching scheme 'The Academy' back on track. Still trying to find a CEO to steer them out of the doldrums (no doubt they will select another ***** who knows FA about clayshooting but shoots skeet and does good shuttering carpentry) oe maybe the chief executive from Horlicks or Ovaltine will get the job and finally put all us CPSA bashers to sleep.

Catamong get real, the CPSA loses nearly as many members annually as it recruits new ones, it is a stagnant society with no growth plans and no direction.It exists merely to register competition members scores and classifications and this could be done from home by an unmarried Mom with a PC for pin money as a benefit supplement. The CPSA are ripping the members off and have been doing so for more than twenty and probably thirty years or more.

Ask yourself when did the CPSA successfully promote clayshooting?

Perhaps 1998 at the World Sporting at Hodnet?

I well remember Ballsup Boakes going to the Worlds at San Antonio Texas with his Golf clubs!!!

[David BASC]

Please understand that the BASC package aimed at straw bale shoots (as proposed but not your 100% finalized) will be very different from the CPSA’s package.

 

The CPSA mag, newsletters etc will be focused on clay shooting with a bias on competition, and so they should be as this is 100% the CPSA’s remit.

 

The BASC mag, newsletters etc will be far more than just clay shooting, but will be biased towards live quarry shooting, political lobbying, media, licensing issues etc as this is 100% our remit

 

Yes the CPSA do seem to be in the doldrums a bit at the moment, but to a certain extent BASC had a period of almost a decade, ’85-95 when membership grew by just 1000 over that 10 years.

 

It took a focus on membership marketing (me) and after about 5 years a top end management re-structure and we BASC has now grown to from about 109,000 members to over 130,000 members today, in a market where the number of SGC’s has fallen.

 

I am not saying the same model should be used for the CPSA, as their circumstances are probably different, but if I were them I would focus on my core business- the permanent grounds, the registered shooters, and those wanting to break into registered shooting.

 

Secondly I would organize independent market research of lapsed members to find out why they are leaving and then adopt a strategy based on this information to reduce membership loss.

 

Secondly I would organize independent market research among exiting members to establish their level of satisfaction.

 

Finally I would research prospective members to find out what their demands and needs are.

 

Anyway, I will let you all know ASAP about the proposed BASC package and how it will develop..

 

David

[Mungler]

Just back from the 3 Acres Haybale with Bagsy, Bazzer, Dave and Rick. Nice round of 80, brew and a chat.

 

Noticed there was a gaggle of about 12 newbies learning the ropes on the Learner stand.

 

Nice and relaxed and enjoyable - Bazzer even brought his dog Purdy out.

 

Now that's what clay shootings about

[Salopian]

David,

Very well said in your last post.

I do not think the CPSA would need to do market research as to why the membership does not renew, it is because unless you need your scores to be registered, or you wish to represent your county or country you just do not need the CPSA at all.

Most clayshooters soon realise that their subscription is not value for money.

Pull magazine is a five minute read about who won what and fixtures, occassional word processor revamp of a MIKAEL YAWNLEY article from another magazine, ( has he ever tested a bad gun?) and adverts for your next budget busting gun or cartridge and that's it.

 

A clay association could promote clayshooting to the general public, put on subsidised instruction ( Have a Go ) stands at all registered and Premier grounds utilise the training they have sold to safety officers and coaches to give something back to the sport, promote regional clayshooting leagues amongst all clubs who wished to field a team, works, pubs, etc.,

Instead grounds like Worsley Manchester were expelled because they didn't toe the line and did actually give competition shooters a raw deal once, but did CPSA mentor Worsley? No they expelled them.

Forsaken Heath ( Lakenheath )have just thrown in the towel because it's a Godforsaken bland Plain littered with skeet ranges that purports to put on Sporting targets. But did CPSA try to mend it ? No they just let the groundowner present bland targets to the World.

The only person who could save the CPSA is Guido Fawkes, he would do us all a favour by blowing HQ up.

[VicW]

Why aren't the CPSA directly involved in the ongoings with the Lead Advisory Group? After all they allegedly represent the interest of the shotgun shooters who use more lead shot than any other group.

When told they would be called upon if it was deemed necessary they simply rolled over and said OK instead of insisting they were directly involved and then left it to the Shooting Sports Council to represent their interests.

An example of the CPSA interest in grass roots clay shooting. A small,affiliated club I help out at changed their secretary but the CPSA found it beyond their capabilities to change the contact details when repeatedly asked to do so.

This debate is reasonably rational so where is the input from a CPSA representative as we have had from David and the BASC?

[Bagsy]

This debate is reasonably rational so where is the input from a CPSA representative as we have had from David and the BASC?

 

A very valid point. This must be the biggest shooting forum in the UK and one which the CPSA will very much be aware of yet they never put their neck out. David often gets flack on here yet he's always able to give a reasoned argument on behalf of BASC.

 

It must be said that Clayman remains positive and puts forward some interesting ideas and I wish him well in his bid to become their next CEO. Perhaps he'll change things for the better if successful.

 

I suspect they don't want the aggravation or the stick they'd get on here - but they'll never get anywhere by hiding in the shadows.

[Bagsy]

Just back from the 3 Acres Haybale with Bagsy, Bazzer, Dave and Rick. Nice round of 80, brew and a chat.

 

....and a bacon roll for those of us who got there on time

[David BASC]

To be fair the CPSA have far fewer staff than BASC, and although keeping in contact via forums etc is part ( a small part) of my job, I honestly wonder how many staff from other 'shooting orgnisations' would be posting on a Sunday night when the X Factor is on?!! Maybe I’m bloody mad!!

 

Having said all that, it is, in my view, very important to engage on forums, as you lean allot, and , i hope, can give allot too.

 

The CPSA will, I am sure, be very actively involved when the LAG start looking at lead and clay shooting, that’s their remit.

 

Having said that I am tired, hard karate session this morning and shifting wheat all around the shoot this afternoon, a large scotch and a hot bath beckon - see you all tomorrow

 

David

[reddan]

I think you will find they don't offer any such thing.

 

I help to run a haybale shoot that is a CPSA member and we get nothing in return. Not a thing. Not even a single copy of "Pull". No badges, no visits, no newsletters, no club insurance deals, no correspondence at all other than a renewal letter every 12 months. We have been renewing out of habit but will not be doing so again, there is simply no point.

 

For your information - we have been going since the sixties and never had a shooting related accident.

 

Our stands are level and well designed, the paths are mud free and the cages are built with safety in mind.

 

We have several CPSA A class shots as members who tell us our competition targets are as challenging as any registered shoot. The layout changes every week - if a club shoot is too easy or too hard the membership soon tell us and we try harder next time, and as a result everybody from the juniors to the A class shots are happy. (Youngest member is 8, oldest is well into his 80s)

 

We don't pay out a penny in prize money but we don't charge much for entry either, we hand out some nice trophies and every bit of the profit goes back into the club.

 

Some of our members turn up in brand new Range Rovers, some in Nissan Micras. Some of our members wear camo, some tweed, some jeans and T-shirts. The camo boys tend to be game and pigeon shooters who are used to shooting outside a cage at unpredictable birds with other guns scattered all around them and as such tend to be the most "muzzle aware", safe shooters.

 

New shooters and juniors are given free instruction and hooked up with an experienced squad for at least the first few visits. Most of them end up joining becasue they like it here.

 

And finally...our bacon sarnies are lovely.

 

I regularly use several other haybalers, and they are all pretty much run in the same way. In fact, I enter a once-yearly charity shoot run by a bunch of farmers that is better run, safer and more interesting to shoot than the last 'professional' ground I used.

 

So, you are welcome to you opinion of haybalers but I know that in my experience you are wrong. Perhaps my experience of registered shoots as full of arrogant, unfriendly and whiney guns arguing with 12 year old scorers at overpriced, unwelcoming and unhelpful grounds is wrong too, but I can't say I am going to rush back. So we will probably never meet again (Yes - again! We have met..but you won't remember me, I'm not in your class )

 

As for the original question about what we need from an association - I have lots of opinions on this but to see a concise and well written summary, see Mungler's posts.

 

I can live without the CPSA..but can they live without the subs of people like me?

 

Very good post sir.

 

DAN

[reddan]

I honestly wonder how many staff from other 'shooting orgnisations' would be posting on a Sunday night when the X Factor is on?!! Maybe I’m bloody mad!!

 

David

 

 

No David I think you are one of the sane ones, X Factor is ****.

 

Dan

[Mungler]

An interesting show of opinion from a diverse bunch of clay shooters.

[HDAV]

I suspect they don't want the aggravation or the stick they'd get on here - but they'll never get anywhere by hiding in the shadows.

 

I would be very very surprised if there were not CPSA staff reading this forum whether as part of their job or just part of their personal hobby

 

To be fair the CPSA have far fewer staff than BASC, and although keeping in contact via forums etc is part ( a small part) of my job, I honestly wonder how many staff from other 'shooting orgnisations' would be posting on a Sunday night when the X Factor is on?!! Maybe I’m bloody mad!!

 

To your credit David and your employers, Shooting needs positive PR, I couldn't even find Clay shooting listed on the common wealth games website!!!! That aside someone needs to pick up 1000's of regular clay shooters who aren't CPSA registered and add them to the fight. there are lots of good ideas and opinions on this thread I hope others are taking note and someone does something positive, i was at my local shoot and the certificate from WCTSA (welsh CPSA) but its not promoted, in fact BASC hold events at the ground..... Would it really cost the CPSA or other organisation much to offer some branded info, be it score cards, stand numbers, rules, guides? Flags? why not send every registered ground a large banner so they can display the fact they are members?

 

Perhaps there are very good reasons for them not doing these things...