Advice on incorrect doctors letter to police?

[phaedra1106]

Hi

 

I have a 20yr old son who has Aspergers Syndrome, a mild form of Autism. He has been a full member of our shooting club and has been safely shooting clay pigeon for over 4 years. He has also shot full bore pistol and rifle (up to .50) during our trips to the USA.

 

Back in September 2010 we went to see his GP (head of practice) and had a lengthy (20-30mins) discussion with him about my son applying for a shotgun certificate of his own, as we would have to notify the police about his Aspergers (even though it is not a mental illness). He looked through his medical records and said that as far as he was concerned there was no reason why not and in fact was very supportive in general as the socialising aspect of being part of a club/group would help his developement.

 

We then sent off his application and had a visit from the FEO about 2 weeks later, he did his inspection (I already have a SC so no problem there), went through all the usual questions and was 100% happy with him.

 

After not hearing anything for six weeks we contacted Durham firearms section, they asked about the doctors visit, I told them what he had said and they seemed confused, eventually they suggested I contact the surgery and get a copy of the letter they had been sent. Having done this I was at first surprised as the letter was from a different doctor at the practice, one who had only seen my son twice in 20yrs for about 10mins for an ingroing toenail!.

 

After reading what he had written I am exteremly upset as the majority of what he had written was not only factually incorrect but he twice said that my son had been discharged from the NHS Transistions Team Service for lack of progress, he had in fact been discharged when he reached 18 as they only deal with 16 to 18yr olds, his small amount of progress is quite typical of Aspergers, change can take a long time. As no-one had bothered to tell us this service was available we only found out about it by accident when he was 17-1/2 so he only had 6 months of support instead of the 2yrs he should have had, this obviously didn't help.

 

He also cited anger issues, lack of social abilities and destructive behaviour, the anger (and we are talking verbal never ever been physical) is directed towards me to reinforce the fact that I am there and not going to leave him as his mum did when he was 15. The lack of social ability is standard for "Aspies" but he is not (as was implied) anti-social, he is, like most Aspies, very sociable but it takes him time as he doesn't always understand body language or emotional signals. The destructive behaviour was cutting holes in his own clothes and bedroom furniture as he becomes bored, this stopped about 6 months ago after we talked about it.

 

At the end of the letter he states "I feel that it would not be safe to grant Jared a certificate at this moment in time" there is nothing in his medical condition to support this, he walks away from confrontation and despite being continually bullied through 3 years of mainstream college, even coming home with a bleeding head after he was pelted with stones, he has never once done anything except walk away.

 

Needless to say the police say there is no chance of his application being granted with such a damning letter in place, they have been extremely helpful throughout this and have agreed to let us withdraw his application before it is refused but of course the letter will stay on file.

 

I have talked to the original doctor about the letter and after thinking about it for 3 weeks he wrote and said he would be willing to write another letter but he now doesn't think it will help, he hasn't said he would agree to correct the errors in the previous doctors letter. I've got an appointment to see him about this next week after I told the practice manager I wanted a copy of their formal complaints proceedure, I also mentioned that I had contacted the National Aspergers Society who advised me to make a complaint to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

 

So as it stands at the moment there is no chance of him being granted a certificate. Has anyone been through anything similar or could offer any advice plese?

[shaun4860]

I think you have done everything you could have done,

 

Please keep us informed on how the interview with the doctor goes....

 

It sounds to me as though the Doc who sent the letter to the police is a bit of an anti or trying to cover his back in case anything did go wrong.

 

I would refuse to see that doctor whenever i visited the surgery next time, and if they ask why, tell them you have no confidence in his ability

 

Shaun

[libs]

Really awful all that. Sounds as if your lad is a fine candidate for an SGC. Not many of us had 4 years safe experience before we applied!

 

I hope the problem is resolved and its clear the doctor that wrote the letter needs to appologise as he appears to be in no position to comment on the issue.

 

All the best to you and your lad, and well done for sticking with him through this.

[J@mes]

 

trying to cover his back in case anything did go wrong.

 

 

 

This, unfortunately. Can't say I wouldn't have done any different in his/her position, as their head is going to be on the block had they said "yes he can have a cert" and something related to his condition had cause him to kill someone, as unlikely as it is.

 

sorry.

[Beardo]

Aspergers or mild autism shouldn't stand in the way of a sgc, id have another word with the original doc and ask him to write that letter.

[michaelswampy]

i really hope u get it sorted so may ppl dont understand aspergers and it upsets me. my son is aspergers and i would not have him any other way ppl need to understand aspergers before they can judge keep us all informed please

[pigeonblasterian]

Hope you get it sorted and the best of luck to your son in his application.

[Mungler]

It comes down to human nature and I'm afraid there's not a local GP on the planet that will write the letter you want or need because it comes down to "blame".

 

If anything went wrong and I am talking *anything* from completely accidental to intentional, the police would hide behind the medical practitioner's sign off who would then take all the flack, and the GP's know it.

 

Turn the table - if you were a local GP on £100k min for life, would you risk it all to give a SGC reference for someone who you see for 5 mins maybe 3 times a year?

 

I know how the game is played and I feel sorry for anyone who has a medical issue; for example, there's plenty out there that have hit rock bottom and done the sensible thing of seeing their GP and getting treatment only to have that stay on record forever and deprive them of a SGC or FAC.

[phaedra1106]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

The GP who wrote the letter is himself a clay pigeon shooter, but not in our club.

 

The club are 100% happy with him but are unwilling to get involved until the police contact them first, they have worries over their section 11 coverage if he gets a refusal and wants to continue shooting, I did ask the police who said there was no reason why he couldn't continue.

 

I'll see what the original GP has to say on Thursday but short of a letter saying the other GP was wrong (highly unlikely) it looks like his chances of being able to shoot independent of me in the future (which is a step he needs to take) is simply not going to happen.

[Gordon R]

You have my sympathy. Your real problem is the GP who wrote the letter. Any subsequent letter from a more understanding GP will not remove the first letter. A risk, however small or large, has been highlighted by someone who knows little about your son.

 

Whatever is now written, the Police will still have that letter and I suspect nothing will make them change their minds.

[bruno22rf]

I dont know if all docs are the same but mine will not support any applications regarding firearms-he will only answer direct questions in writing from the police and offer acces to my records if asked.

[HDAV]

I too wonder why the doctor you had the meeting with wasnt the one writing to the FLO and this you'll have to bring up with the practice manager..... You can it all the way to court and get a judge to rule on the matter but that is a long a potentially expensive process.

 

This really does bring the medical "opinion" into question, and how the FLO use these letters. Of course a GP (or anyone) cannot say with certainty, any person is not a potential risk if future. So how do they support/deny the application? IF your a member of the BASC/CPSA may be worth asking them for advice. Does your son, has he seen a specialist? At this stage all you can do is try and stack the deck in your sons favour, Aspergers Society may be able to add some support point you in the right direction.

 

I dont know alot about it but I have met the editor of http://autismfile.com/ Polly Tommey at a friends party may well be worth contacting and asking for help and resources.

Edited January 15, 2011 by HDAV

[throbbingfinger]

Sorry to hear of your situation.

I can see where the doctor is coming from, he is carrying out a massive **** covering exercise. Imagine the newspaper headlines if something went wrong.

As you said he only has met the kid a few times. But why didn't the doctor ou saw write the letter?

 

I dont know your boy but if you as a responsible parent and shooting man, your gun club and the other doctor don't see him as an issue I don't see a problem.

Good luck mate.

[CZ550Kevlar]

Your only hope is to speak to your Practice manager combined with a meeting with your usual doctor and ask them for their opinion, then depending on if they uphold their colleagues letter content depends on what happens next, Usually where medical matters are concerned on FAC`s and SGC`s these matters are passed from the Firearms managers to the FMO (Force medical officer) then the recommendation gets passed back to the Firearms manager for the final signoff as they basically act on behalf of the relevant chief constable. i`m afraid to say but basically it is in the hands of your usual GP and the practie manager who work with the doctor who wrote the letter causing the problem in the first place, personally i wouldn`t be hopeful.

[docholiday]

What I don't understand is why the Doctor you saw didn't write the letter after your "interview" with him, cant blame the other Doctor, he doesn't know you or your son by the sound of it and has to put together a recommendation from the notes in front of him, sounds like he did a pretty thorough job of going though these.

 

my thoughts for what it is worth is that the GP shouldn't be put into the position of saying if he is safe or not, might be more appropriate for your specialist.

 

But its always difficult if you have to sign someone off as "safe " to own a gun, as it could always come back to bight you in the bum.

 

wish you good luck and hope you get the outcome you want.

 

doc

[phaedra1106]

Just to clarify,

 

The first GP we saw is the head of the practice, senior partner.

 

None of the GPs there have seen much of my son as he wasn't diagnosed with Aspergers until he was 15 and there's no medical treatment they can provide.

 

The only times he's been to the doctors since being diagnosed were for an ingrowing toenail and two discussions with the first GP. The first was last March about him leaving college and being put on Employment Support Allowance, Welfare Rights had advised us to see him and get a "not-fit note" put in place before he left college. The second time was the pre shotgun application discussion in September, if he hadn't been so enthusiastic and supportive we wouldn't have bothered to apply.

 

The only other support we have is from Social Services or whatever they are called now, that took 2-1/2 years and a formal complaint before they were forced into providing direct payments so we could employ a personal assistant (to take some of the strain off me as I'm physically disabled) and to encourage him to be more independent. He gets a huge 10 hours of support a week, not even enough for her to stay overnight and let me have a break :( Other than that he/we get no support at all so getting him to be more independent is vital as I won't be here forever and there's no-one else going to offer to take care of him.

 

I know they have to cover their backsides but he is a great kid (young adult!), no-one has anything bad to say about him in fact anyone who takes the time to get to know him says he's kind, polite and charming with a great sense of humour.

 

Again thanks for the replies

Edited January 15, 2011 by phaedra1106

[Vince Green]

My son is a Psycologist who works with Autistic and anger management kids. He is also a shooter. His first reaction to your case was to say that for a GP no is a lot easier to say than yes in these cases. No equals zero risk, yes equals going out on a limb.

 

His suggestion was that you went back and negotiated a SGC with a supervised condition, which should satisfy all parties. But also, since most clay clubs have an exemption. You don't have a problem with him shooting without a SGC.

[DaveK]

Get a solicitor and SUE HIS A55.

Edited January 15, 2011 by DaveK

[phaedra1106]

Thanks for the info, no-one has mentioned the supervised option, I assume I need to ring the firearms team and ask about it?.

 

All the stands on our shoot have a "range officer" present, would this be classed as supervised?.

[CZ550Kevlar]

Thanks for the info, no-one has mentioned the supervised option, I assume I need to ring the firearms team and ask about it?.

 

All the stands on our shoot have a "range officer" present, would this be classed as supervised?.

 

Based on this supervised option are you asking the police to grant a SGC and allow your son un-restricted access to a shotgun he owns to allow him to take it clay shooting then be supervised at the clay shoot by someone at a stand and not supervised while walking around?

I`m not being funny but i think the best you can hope for is yourself or another SGC holder to take your son clay shooting and lend him a shotgun under a section 11 exemption on the ground, The chance of your son owning his own shotgun and being independant is worse than narrow.

[brian28]

Get a solicitor and SUE HIS A55.

Any doctor has the right to say no for whatever reason they wish.

Doctor i used to have would not endorse anything to do with shooting full stop [anti]

[HDAV]

Based on this supervised option are you asking the police to grant a SGC and allow your son un-restricted access to a shotgun he owns to allow him to take it clay shooting then be supervised at the clay shoot by someone at a stand and not supervised while walking around?

I`m not being funny but i think the best you can hope for is yourself or another SGC holder to take your son clay shooting and lend him a shotgun under a section 11 exemption on the ground, The chance of your son owning his own shotgun and being independant is worse than narrow.

Not sure if this even possible but could it be he has a supervised condition on his SGC but that the supervisor doesn't have to be an SGC holder, just a responsible adult? A bit like it is for the under 15 with an SGC.

 

UNDER 15 YEARS OF AGE

It is an offence to sell, hire or make a gift of a shotgun or ammunition to a person under 15

years of age.

A person under 15 may not have an assembled shotgun with them except:

i) when under the direct supervision of someone of or over 21.

or

ii) when the shotgun is in a securely fastened gun cover so that it cannot be fired.

 

This allows a 14 year old with SGC to go shooting with a none none SGC holding over 21........

[artschool]

Get a solicitor and SUE HIS A55.

 

as the risk of going against the mood of the thread, why would you sue him when its his professional opinion.

 

obviously everyone is an individual but some of the symptoms of Aspergers dont sound conducive to un restricted access to a shotgun.

[al4x]

as the risk of going against the mood of the thread, why would you sue him when its his professional opinion.

 

obviously everyone is an individual but some of the symptoms of Aspergers dont sound conducive to un restricted access to a shotgun.

 

 

my feelings exactly, from the only showing aggression towards you that is not what I'd call a good recipe for safe holding of firearms. They aren't toys boys you can do serious damage with them, personally I'd keep the status quo take him under direct supervision.

[Canis]

Unfortunately, as far as i read it a section 11(6) does not extend to people who have had a certificate (fac or SGC) refused. So ic could be argued that your Boys ability to shoot in any form in the UK is now in jeaopardy if the cert is refused

 

Have you contacted the BASC for advice? this strikes me as just the sort of case that the powers that be would rather not have tested in court in the run-up to the inpending legislation and may be "cajoulable" if you have the right support, particularly when it involves a kid from a single parent family with a medical problem (it has great media poential).

 

Best of luck