Redundant (Potentially)

[shalfordninja33]

I had a week off work last week, but I got a call on Tuesday evening from my boss asking me to come in the following morning for a meeting with him and the HR Lady.

He could'nt tell me what is was about on the phone and insisted I come in to the office in the morning, which I did. I get a short speech about a restructuring and how through a set of circumstances my job is now potentially redundant, i'm now under consulation and on gardening leave. I understand the reasoning and have the follow up meeting with them tomorrow to discuss the options. I've had some off the record conversations with my colleagues and it doesnt look good for me, we'll see what tomorrow brings.

 

I've been in this particular industry (Printing) for 15 years and in my present job for 12, I'm on a 6 month contract and if I do get made redundant I recon I'd get about 9 months money in total. The industrys going through a tough time, which one is'nt, with more and more paper based products going online, the Ipad, the volume of print is reducing year on year, there will be less and less demand for my current skillset.

 

My priority is to try and keep a job with my current company, if I do go I'm considering leaving the industry completely, using the redundancy to re-train in a trade, plumber, sparky, chippy etc or something else.

 

Have any of you had similar experences and chosen to change your work completely? My heads all over the place at the moment and I dont know what I'll do if I get laid off, I guess I'm looking for inspiration. This isnt my first post, work have turned off my email address which my PW account ran through and I couldn't remeber my password.

 

thanks

[J@mes]

There is very little money in the construction industry/ trades at the minute, I know loads of sparks/plumbers etc who are struggling to get work and these guys have 20 years experience or more.

 

There sure as hell aint any work for fresh fish

 

Don't believe the train for trade hype, or any other adverts promising to teach you a trade in 5 weeks and that you'll be earning thousands a month straight after - its all ********.

 

Sorry!

 

Best of luck though

[2bangs]

I've been there myself mate, awful awful place to be, took me the best part of a year to get back into work, no thanks to the job centres etc, I agree with J@mes, the training they put you on is not worth a light, anyone wanting to employ tradesmen has got hundreds of skilled ones to choose from, best of luck though mate I hope things work out for you.

[Coolhead]

shalfordninja33, get legal advice straight away.

You've already been treated unfairly and at the very least you stand a good chance of getting a good pay-off. Get everything in writing and don't discuss things with any other employees.

 

As for alternative employment, look for who is hiring and whether you have skills that can transfer to that industry. Otherwise retraining is your best bet.

 

Best of luck chap.

[fortune82]

My cousin worked for a large printer called Quibicor in Northamptonshire and was made redundant several years ago. He used to redundancy to re-train as an HGV driver. He now drives Artics for Robert Wiseman and makes a decent living.

 

My father was in the print industry for years as well, was made redundant years ago and re-trained, now works for the CPS.

[Vince Green]

Where are you? thats one of the key questions these days.Send me an email on Greenvbg@aol.com and I'll talk to you off forum about what I did when it happened to me.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Vince Green

[Thunderbird]

You've already been treated unfairly

 

Can you qualify that, from a legal perspective? I'm not so sure he has been (yet), depends on the selection criteria and whether it's a 'real' redundancy, or just dismissal by the back door. The only thing is if garden leave isn't in his contract why is he on it?

 

If you can come back and post the steps they took, what criteria they are using for selection for redundancy, and what they haven given you in writing. Don't sign anything that is magically produced in a meeting and presented to you!

[Sussexboy]

I agree with Thunderbird, no sign yet of being treated unfairly. (Although redundancy will never feel fair.)

 

To the OP - are you in a union? Has there been a consultation period? You say there is restructuring, has this been forced by a parent company? When (if) you get your position declared surplus, the company need to be able to demonstrate a clear selection process for the people involved, and to show that the position you held is no longer required.

 

Again, as Thunderbird says, don't sign anything at the meeting, indeed they should not ask you to. You should be given a compromise agreement which lists all the facts and figures. This needs to be assessed by a solicitor as it is a legally binding agreement, once signed you have no more come back with the company.

 

Good luck, whatever the outcome.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Sussexboy

[Billy.]

Get looking for a new job. Your employer will allow you to go for job interviews if there's a risk of redundancy.

 

I would say to stand up to them and pour your heart out to them about how much you love your job, but it sounds like it's already set in stone.

 

Get making some phone calls to the competitors and introduce yourself as an employee who is looking to move, not a person who is going to be made redundant.

[ack-ack]

My last construction contract finished last June and its been difficult financially. I bought a pick up and started taking on private work utilising skills I'd aquired during my time on the land. The more jobs I do, the more jobs I get. I treat people well and they normally reciprocate. Embrace the change mate, I'll never be rich but I can go fishing or shooting when I want and the veg patch is looking handsome.

[Thunderbird]

My last construction contract finished last June and its been difficult financially. I bought a pick up and started taking on private work utilising skills I'd aquired during my time on the land. The more jobs I do, the more jobs I get. I treat people well and they normally reciprocate. Embrace the change mate, I'll never be rich but I can go fishing or shooting when I want and the veg patch is looking handsome.

 

What a great and inspiring post, good for you mate.

 

Ack-ack is right, try and think of something you can do well (or easily) that people might pay you for. Not always easy though. If the worst comes to the worst you might pick up some multi-drop driving work through an agency, in a smaller van you don't need a class 1 or 2 for that.

 

Have you asked your current employer if they can re-deploy you in another function?

[Paddy Galore!]

What a great and inspiring post, good for you mate.

 

Ack-ack is right, try and think of something you can do well (or easily) that people might pay you for. Not always easy though. If the worst comes to the worst you might pick up some multi-drop driving work through an agency, in a smaller van you don't need a class 1 or 2 for that.

 

Have you asked your current employer if they can re-deploy you in another function?

as above mate, really sorry to hear about the trouble you're having, but don't sit around feeling sorry for yourself, be positive, get looking for your next job whether it be temp work for an agency or a full on career move.

Building trades have been struggling for the last few years, and possibly for the next few too, so maybe not a good idea to retrain as a chippy etc, but keep an eye on the type of vacancies in your area, and possibly retrain for that?

[jacksdad]

Forget the building game for sure, round here even the "£25 a day cash" Polish Bodgers have gone home! :blink:

Remember to claim at the benefits dept the first day you can, your claim only starts from when you contact them, and get what you are entitled to

Spend your time doing all the things you put off whilst working, Summers here so lots to do...and DON'T PANIC ! take any time out to assess just what you want do to in the future

[poontang]

Just seen this so probably too late now, but make sure you have someone with you at the meeting, and if you can tape what's said all the better (obviously don't let them know :yp: ). Most mobile's have a record facility.

[Coolhead]

Can you qualify that, from a legal perspective? I'm not so sure he has been (yet), depends on the selection criteria and whether it's a 'real' redundancy, or just dismissal by the back door. The only thing is if garden leave isn't in his contract why is he on it?

 

 

Yes certainly. I've won unfair dismissal twice at Tribunal. In both cases they didn't even dare to continue to the hearing. The last one got me the high end of four figures.

 

1) The law says only positions and not people can be made redundant.

2) Prejudice in singling him out before wider consultation

3) Acting to remove him from the workplace before consultation is complete.

 

Redundancy case law is clear. Redundancy must follow the "ETO" test.

1) Economic - it must be shown that closing this particular position is the only way to save costs.

2) Technical - Changes render the subject no longer qualified to fulfill the role

3) Organizational - The site/branch/business operation is being discontinued.

 

It is a requirement that the employer look at all employees equally. Deciding only one person is to be examined is automatically unfair.

It is a requirement that the employer show what mechanism was used to determine this man and not another is the one to go.

It is a requirement that the company consider and discuss with the employee retraining, redeployment and show that this position is no longer required.

 

 

I repeat that in such cases legal advice is vital. Either via a union or the free assessment and consultation that most lawyers offer. If it's not in writing it didn't happen. If they daren't put it in writing they have already lost the argument. Don't involve other employees as they will be scared for their own jobs.

 

Your opinion and mine is irrelevant. A legal professional must be consulted to prevent abuse. It's free after all !

When times are hard employers are more inclined to misbehave.

[Thunderbird]

Thanks for that Coolhead, interesting stuff. I know that if a proper procedure isn't followed then the dismissal is automatically unfair, and I suppose pointers so far are the garden leave, lack of consultation and the fact that they have even deleted his email address!

[Norrie]

Hiya, I've been made redundant a few times, and once or twice, used the Unemployed Workers Centres for advice, representation etc...they do a great job...even if you are working..

 

http://www.tuc.org.uk/union/index.cfm?mins=55&minors=53&majorsubjectID=14

[shalfordninja33]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the replys.

 

Vince, I'm in Braintree, Essex.

 

Thunderbird, I was given a letter explaining the reasons and the next step witch was a further meeting yesterday to discuss the resons in more detail and to look at potential alternatives to redundancy.

 

Poontang, I'm using my line manager as my witness throughout, I've worked for him for 12 years and he has little influence on the process. But he know exactly what I bring to the place and is better equiped than anyone to help in that.

 

Coolhead, some intesting points made, thank you.

 

Norrie, thank you I'll contact them.

 

To answer some of your other questions, I'm under consulation at the moment for potential redundancy, is not related to skills or performance. There's no selection process as I work for the parent company and I'm the only one in my position. The company I work for has bought our largest competitor and they are restructuring the sales and customer serice teams.

 

I work in account management and two of my largest customers have requested a change in personnel, i.e me, as a result. One of them worked with the aquired company for 14 years, whereas I've worked with them for 7 months and their keen to rekindle that relationship. The other customer is very difficult to deal with and they believe I'm too close to their staff, as a result their senior management would like a less pally relationship. As a result it leaves me with a much smaller workload than I had before, hence the potential redundancy.

 

I had my seocnd meeting yesterday where we talked through the reasons in more detail. They stressed it wasnt related to performance or a specific complaint, none had been recieved, purely relating to workload. I pleaded my case, length of service, commitment to the business through previous restructing and wage reduction. Part of my job is new business sales, which the business has a large requirement for, I've proposed that I increase my focus on new business to fill the time I now have free after losing my other resposibilities. They're now considering that and have asked to see me again this Thursday for a further discussion. They'll either accept my proposal or confirm to me that I'm going, at that point I'll get the solicitors involved in the compromise agreement.

 

I've made some call to some competitors and made them aware that I'm interested in moving, companies are always looking for sales people. I'm going to go the careers advise centre today and speak to them about alternatives.

 

On the upside the weather's been lovely so I've given the house a good sping clean and done the stuff in the garden I've been putting off, the kitchen's getting a good going over today! Aside from shooting my other hobbie is cycling so I've been getting out on the road for 2 or three hours a day. I've also been able to potter about on the shoot and do a couple of things that havent been cruital but made me feel better getting them done.

 

Lastly thank you for your advice, it not an easy time at the moment, especially today as my wife works on Monday and Tuesday and my little girl goes to her grandma and granddads for the two days. The uncertainly and feeling of failure is diffcult to accept, but I know it's happening for a reason and the quicker it's resolved either way the quicker I can move on.

 

I'll keep you posted on developments after Thursdays meeting.

 

Thanks

 

Shalfordninja

[Dr W]

Good luck for Thursday

[Thunderbird]

Yep good luck fella, keep us posted.

[Fisherman Mike]

Yes certainly. I've won unfair dismissal twice at Tribunal. In both cases they didn't even dare to continue to the hearing. The last one got me the high end of four figures.

 

1) The law says only positions and not people can be made redundant.

2) Prejudice in singling him out before wider consultation

3) Acting to remove him from the workplace before consultation is complete.

 

Redundancy case law is clear. Redundancy must follow the "ETO" test.

1) Economic - it must be shown that closing this particular position is the only way to save costs.

2) Technical - Changes render the subject no longer qualified to fulfill the role

3) Organizational - The site/branch/business operation is being discontinued.

 

It is a requirement that the employer look at all employees equally. Deciding only one person is to be examined is automatically unfair.

It is a requirement that the employer show what mechanism was used to determine this man and not another is the one to go.

It is a requirement that the company consider and discuss with the employee retraining, redeployment and show that this position is no longer required.

 

 

I repeat that in such cases legal advice is vital. Either via a union or the free assessment and consultation that most lawyers offer. If it's not in writing it didn't happen. If they daren't put it in writing they have already lost the argument. Don't involve other employees as they will be scared for their own jobs.

 

Your opinion and mine is irrelevant. A legal professional must be consulted to prevent abuse. It's free after all !

When times are hard employers are more inclined to misbehave.

 

 

 

Thats all very well but at least he will get some redundancy money without the company going into liquidation and bankruptcy brought about by serial litagees like yourself

 

It sounds to me like the Company is trying to its very best by it employees in a very difficult marketplace. Sadly this American philosohy of sueing the *** off the ****ers has contributed to much hardship in many companies who have no alternative but to lay off good staff to reduce overheads. Its also really ****** up the Insurance markets over the last 20 years. With everybody having to pay increasingly higher and higher premiums.

 

Personally I wouldnt be keen to stay with a company who despite my loyalty and commitment obviously dont value my worth and would look to negotiate, without litigation, the best severance deal I could. Walk away with a clear concience and some money in my pocket without the thought that there was always someone looking over my shoulder. Im afraid once the Employer/Employee relationship becomes strained to such an extent there is only going to be one outcome.

 

It may be the best thing thats ever happened to Shalford Ninja...lets hope so.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Fisherman Mike

[mushroom]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for the replys.

 

Vince, I'm in Braintree, Essex.

 

Thunderbird, I was given a letter explaining the reasons and the next step witch was a further meeting yesterday to discuss the resons in more detail and to look at potential alternatives to redundancy.

 

Poontang, I'm using my line manager as my witness throughout, I've worked for him for 12 years and he has little influence on the process. But he know exactly what I bring to the place and is better equiped than anyone to help in that.

 

Coolhead, some intesting points made, thank you.

 

Norrie, thank you I'll contact them.

 

To answer some of your other questions, I'm under consulation at the moment for potential redundancy, is not related to skills or performance. There's no selection process as I work for the parent company and I'm the only one in my position. The company I work for has bought our largest competitor and they are restructuring the sales and customer serice teams.

 

I work in account management and two of my largest customers have requested a change in personnel, i.e me, as a result. One of them worked with the aquired company for 14 years, whereas I've worked with them for 7 months and their keen to rekindle that relationship. The other customer is very difficult to deal with and they believe I'm too close to their staff, as a result their senior management would like a less pally relationship. As a result it leaves me with a much smaller workload than I had before, hence the potential redundancy.

 

I had my seocnd meeting yesterday where we talked through the reasons in more detail. They stressed it wasnt related to performance or a specific complaint, none had been recieved, purely relating to workload. I pleaded my case, length of service, commitment to the business through previous restructing and wage reduction. Part of my job is new business sales, which the business has a large requirement for, I've proposed that I increase my focus on new business to fill the time I now have free after losing my other resposibilities. They're now considering that and have asked to see me again this Thursday for a further discussion. They'll either accept my proposal or confirm to me that I'm going, at that point I'll get the solicitors involved in the compromise agreement.

 

I've made some call to some competitors and made them aware that I'm interested in moving, companies are always looking for sales people. I'm going to go the careers advise centre today and speak to them about alternatives.

 

On the upside the weather's been lovely so I've given the house a good sping clean and done the stuff in the garden I've been putting off, the kitchen's getting a good going over today! Aside from shooting my other hobbie is cycling so I've been getting out on the road for 2 or three hours a day. I've also been able to potter about on the shoot and do a couple of things that havent been cruital but made me feel better getting them done.

 

Lastly thank you for your advice, it not an easy time at the moment, especially today as my wife works on Monday and Tuesday and my little girl goes to her grandma and granddads for the two days. The uncertainly and feeling of failure is diffcult to accept, but I know it's happening for a reason and the quicker it's resolved either way the quicker I can move on.

 

I'll keep you posted on developments after Thursdays meeting.

 

Thanks

 

Shalfordninja

 

 

I'm looking for a New sales/Accounts manager who dosen't mind travelling around the south of England (Yes I know it's a big place lol territory will be set later in the process). The usual perks car, mobile etc If your interested pm me and we'll have a chat.

 

ATB Kie

[Thunderbird]

PW at it's best I'd say!!

[shalfordninja33]

An update chaps,

 

Had my meeting this morning, my current job is still 'at risk' however following the alternative proposal I made to them on Monday, a vacancy for the new business person now exists. I've asked to be considered for the role and I'm now waiting on a job description from my employer.

 

I had an off the record coversation with my staff represative who said there's been a groundswell of support for my cause between many of the senior management, the've reviewed everything else I do and the business I've bought in over the last 2 years, the result being a vacancy on the new business team. If the job description looks good I'll have an interview and see where is goes from there.

 

At least there's a light at the end of the tunnel for the moment, they're looking to conclude it all by the end of April.

 

It's one of the worst things I've ever experienced, if I am successful I dont know how I'll feel about working there after this, but I'll give it a go and if I dont like it at least I've bought myself some time. I'll update you next week.

 

Thanks again for the replys guys, you've been a great help.

 

PS Mushroom, I'll PM you.

 

cheers

 

SN

[bakerboy]

The uncertainly and feeling of failure is difficult to accept.

 

You most certainly have not failed, the truth is the company have failed you. If the worse comes to the worse and you are made redundant, is there an opportunity to offer yourself in a consultancy/freelance role, which could then be expanded to other companies in the same industry.

 

Good luck for the future.

Edited April 14, 2011 by bakerboy