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rhodester

Would 28 gram cartridges kill pigeons

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    The best shots I see all year are some Swedish clients, they use 28g Express Supreme Game #6 and have a very good kill ratio. One shot 105 pigeons for 145 shots a few years ago, he shot lots of left and rights that day too. :good:

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    Don't know why the link isn't working, so I've copied and pasted the information from the Guns on Pegs website.

     

    webber

     

    Eley Hawk Shotgun Ammunition

     

    As part of GunsOnPegs' partnership with Eley, the cartridge experts at Eley Hawk are providing information to GunsOnPegs Members on the tricky subject that is game cartridges, what cartridge to use and when.

     

    If you have any further questions that are not answered below, please do not hesitate contact us and we will endevour to get your questions answered.

     

    Eley Background

     

    For over 180 years, the name of Eley has been at the forefront of quality and innovation in the world of shotgun ammunition. From the beginning of production in 1828, Eley cartridges have earned a worldwide reputation amongst discerning shooters for being of the highest quality and reliability.

     

    For over 100 years, production was based at Witton in Birmingham under the IMI group banner but this was about to change. In 2002 the Eley shotgun ammunition business was acquired by Maxam, the largest and most prestigious manufacturers of explosives and ammunition in Europe if not worldwide. Maxam’s intentions were to build on the well deserved reputation of the product, to make Eley a world leader in cartridge manufacturing and to maintain Eley’s identity as a truly British manufacturer.

     

    In 2003 the new factory at Minworth, Sutton Coldfield was commissioned and a new era in Eley‘s long and distinguished history had begun. Drawing on Maxam’s technical expertise and products, the plan was simple: To apply new technology and materials in order to take Eley products into the 21st century

     

    Eley Hawk now produces some of the finest quality products on the market anywhere in the world. Maxam’s knowledge and expertise in the production of high quality powders is well known and these are used exclusively throughout the Eley Hawk range.

     

    Information on all aspects of Game Cartridges

     

    1. SHOT SIZE

     

    The usual shot sizes often used for game would be UK shot sizes 7 (2.4mm) 6 (2.6mm) and 5 (2.8mm).

     

    Whilst the difference in the diameter might not seem great, the pellet count / pellet weight differences are quite significant and worth noting.

     

    In 1oz (28g) there are c.340 7’s, c.270 6’s and c.220 5 shot.

     

    Perhaps more significant is the individual pellet weight with 0.08g per 7 shot, 0.1g per 6 shot and 0.13 per 5 shot. This again might not seem much but it means a number 6 shot pellet is 25% heavier than a number 7!

     

    A 5 shot is 30% heavier than a 6 shot and an impressive 62% heavier than a 7 shot.

     

    What this translates to for the game shooter is the need to select the correct pellet size for the quarry to ensure clean and humane kills, especially on high birds.

     

    7 shot on a very high pheasant will simply not have sufficient energy to be consistently effective or humane and for these reasons should not be used.

     

    Use 6 or 7 on smaller game birds such as snipe, woodcock, pigeons and perhaps partridge where the distances are not excessive.

     

    6 shot on pigeons, partridge, and ‘average’ pheasants

     

    5 shot (perhaps even 4 shot) for high pheasants and ground game such as rabbits and hares.

     

    It is perhaps worth commenting that there is an increasing move by shooters towards larger shot sizes than have been used previously as they are finding the larger pellet size much more effective resulting in less wounding and more humane, effective kills.

     

     

     

    2. CARTRIDGE LENGTH

     

    The maximum length is determined by the chamber length of the gun and it is very important NOT to use a cartridge of a longer length than the gun is manufactured to take.

     

    Do NOT be tempted by the fact that a 2 ¾” or 3” cartridge will fit in your 2 ½” chambered gun to fire it!

     

    The cartridge length refers to the case length WHEN FIRED. As a rule of thumb, the longer the case, the greater the payload it can contain and the higher the payload, the higher the operating pressure.

     

    Spend a few minutes checking your gun carefully for both the chamber length and proof pressures and if you have any doubts – consult a professional gunsmith for advice.

     

     

     

    3. PAYLOAD

     

    This will depend on the quarry, range and chamber length of your gun. For most game shooting with a 12 gauge gun, 28g, 30g and 32g (1oz, 1 1/16 oz and 1 1/8 oz respectively) would be the most usual payloads. For high birds with a 2 ½” chambered gun either the 34g Eley Maximum or 34g VIP Elite are ideal whilst in 2 ¾” the 36g VIP Extreme will give you all the performance you need .

     

    The use of large payloads, particularly in smaller calibres, poses some problems, especially recoil, and raises other issues too.

     

    Very heavy payloads means the height of the shot column in the cartridge is increased quite significantly. On firing, unless a slow burning, high quality powder is used, a very large proportion of the pellets at the bottom of the shot column are rapidly compressed and damaged on detonation and the cartridge will pattern poorly.

     

    All Eley cartridges are carefully designed to balance the payload with the pattern and performance they deliver.

     

     

     

    4. PLASTIC OR FIBRE WAD?

     

    Many game shoots now specify fibre wads only. The Fibre wads used by Eley are 100% fibre and our 12 bore wads are manufactured here in Birmingham to the highest quality.

     

    Do BEWARE as some so called ‘fibre’ wad cartridges use a short fibre wad column backed with a plastic obturator (gas seal) and so do contain plastic wad components. We are aware that some shooters have been put in some very embarrassing situations with owners and gamekeepers because of this.

     

     

     

    Is it true that plastic or photodegradable wads will give tighter and often more even patterns than fibre wads?

     

    It is true, as the shot is contained in a plastic cup and so is protected from the barrel walls when fired. Damaged pellets, caused by this or too rapid an initial acceleration on firing, will result in less even patterns and perhaps ‘fliers’ – pellets outside the main shot pattern area..

     

    This however, can be greatly reduced by using an Eley fibre wad cartridge which accelerates the shot smoothly resulting in less pellet deformation and less disrupted patterns.

     

     

     

    5. VELOCITY

     

    It is worth remembering that muzzle velocity tells you little about the speed of the shot where it counts – at 20-50 yards. 1450 feet per second does sounds impressive but is the shot decelerating quickly and how fast is it where it really matters?

     

    In addition, very high muzzle velocity can disrupt the pattern badly resulting in gaps and grouping of shot within the pattern leading to missed or wounded birds.

     

    All Eley cartridges are checked to ensure the observed velocity (at 20 yards) and the pattern thrown is consistent shot after shot and sufficient to provide good clean kills at range.

     

     

     

    6. SHOT

     

    Eley manufacture both lead shot and our Bismuth EVO III shot here in Birmingham under very strict quality controls.

     

    Our lead shot for game cartridge contains 2% Antimony. This hardens the shot slightly helping reduce deformation during firing and as it travels down the barrel but means it is still malleable and will deform on impact thereby delivering very effective knockdown performance on game. Higher levels of Antimony, such as 5% used in premium clay cartridges, are ideal for breaking clays but harden the shot too much making it generally unsuitable for game shooting.

     

     

     

    7. RECOIL

     

    Many shooters use the adage “If it kicks it must be fast” as a measure of the speed of a cartridge which unfortunately is not a very good yardstick and is often untrue. Recoil is not only uncomfortable whilst shooting it can cause permanent problems over time. It also means the second shot can be delayed momentarily while you recover from the first one.

     

    High recoil in a cartridge can be due to the use of a very fast burning powder which does not accelerate loads smoothly and more importantly often results in very disappointing downrange speed and effectiveness despite what you may expect.

     

    Recoil can be minimised by using various recoil reducing aids, perhaps a heavier gun or even a semi automatic where appropriate. Try and match the gun with a realistic payload for it – 36g cartridges in lightweight game guns are likely to kick and be uncomfortable!

     

    Eley cartridges are manufactured using an exclusive range of high quality powders manufactured by Maxam our parent company. This means we can use exactly the right powder for the task in hand.

     

    VIP cartridges are loaded with a premium quality powder which provides smooth acceleration and outstanding downrange velocity. It is not referred to by Lord James Percy as “Simply the best game cartridge ever made” for nothing.

     

     

     

    8. DIRTY BARRELS AND CARTRIDGE STORAGE

     

    Fast burning powders burn very cleanly on firing and leave very little residue in gun barrels. However, they do not always provide the best way of accelerating shot in a quality cartridge where low recoil and high performance downrange is essential, particularly in the heavier loads.

     

    Very low temperatures can cause cartridges to leave what might appear to be some un-burnt powder or residue in the barrel but the effect on the actual performance is not significant and should not concern the shooter, especially if the gun is cleaned correctly after use.

     

    Cartridges are best stored at room temperature and it is best to avoid extremes of heat and moisture, such as loft spaces and garages which can be very cold in winter and rather warm in summer.

     

    It is also important to ensure that cartridges are stored safely and securely at all times.

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    Have a look here.

     

    http://gunsonpegs.co...information.php

     

    Then decide if you think that you are doing the quarry justice by shooting it with 7.1/2s

     

    webber

     

    You can absolutely do the quarry justice by killing it with 7 1/2 shot. However you are not doing the quarry justice by wounding it with any shot size. I've seen plenty of people wounding pigeons with 5 shot. I will always maintain that if you can shoot straight, a 7.5 loaded cartridge will kill out to good ranges, as i do time and again.

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    You can absolutely do the quarry justice by killing it with 7 1/2 shot. However you are not doing the quarry justice by wounding it with any shot size. I've seen plenty of people wounding pigeons with 5 shot. I will always maintain that if you can shoot straight, a 7.5 loaded cartridge will kill out to good ranges, as i do time and again.

     

    Absolutely agree with you, the original poster questioned whether 1oz will kill pigeon and of course it will. You would have to assume he meant over decoys where I personally believe it to be as good as anything else if you`re managing to decoy them in well where 32gram can be too much if anything. Also agree that 5`s in the wrong hands can lead to a feeling of invincibility and bravado and actually lead to wounding at range.

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    28g 7.5's will be fine out to 30 yards or so. It's shot placement and range that matters. I find it useful to place a decoy at the maximum comfortable range as a reminder. I personally use 30 or 32g no 6's but have used 28g 7.5's on occasion.

    Edited by Dr_T

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    Have a look here.

     

    http://gunsonpegs.co...information.php

     

    Then decide if you think that you are doing the quarry justice by shooting it with 7.1/2s

     

    webber

     

    That is really just an Advert for Eley cartridges and contains the same information that use to be in their Diary.

    I personally prefer No6 shot for pigeons, but know someone who not only kills decoyed birds cleanly with 7.1/2's, but also 24 gm loads.

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    Ive used 21 7.5s over decoys within sensible range to a very good effect i got these for one of my daughters for the less recoil very fast cartridge cycles through my Remington 1187 semi auto fine what a surprise i had to try :good:

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    I use eley first 1oz 7 1/2 for most things, and that's in a 26" improved cylinder side by side. I don't chop and change cartridges, I have got used to that load. If I go roost shooting in taller trees I would move to eley pigeon 1 1/16 6 shot. I am a great believer in your gun fitting correctly too. If it don't you would cause more wounding than any wrong cartridge selection.

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    I have no qualms at all in using 28gram 7 1/2 shot for decoying pigeon, for me killing cleanly is all about where you put it not the size of shot or load. 7 1/2 or 4s if your not shooting straight the result will be wounded birds.

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    I have no qualms at all in using 28gram 7 1/2 shot for decoying pigeon, for me killing cleanly is all about where you put it not the size of shot or load. 7 1/2 or 4s if your not shooting straight the result will be wounded birds.

    thats me coverd then lol i only ever use 42g 4s if its dead its dead

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    yes 7.5 shot will kill them cleanly at decoying ranges,use them meself from time to time if running low on 6s but personally i like to take longer shots on so, like to know the carts i,m using will do the job at range consistently and find 6s better for that,and they are normally used for game shooting you won;t see 7.5 game loads on the market for a reason.

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    If you're decoying and waiting for the pigeon to commit to land at up to 25 yards and you can shoot straight, even absolute clay carts should be just fine - lighter weight pellets but multiple strikes.

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    In order to get a kill, we necessarily must hit vital organs! It is often said an average of 3 to 6 pellets is necessary.

     

    At the limit of normal ranges the pattern will fail before the shot penatration.

     

    Pluck a pigeon and you will see just how small a target the bird represents.

     

    On a small target a more dense pattern higher pellet count will increase the chance of hitting a vital.

     

    On this basis No.6 shot, No.7 and even 7.5 has a greater chance of hitting a vital at sensible ranges.

     

    I apply this to pigeons, partridge but not pheasants which are a larger target.

     

    On the subject of Antimony in lead shot, it is said a softer shot deforms on impact and therefore has more "shock" leathality.

     

    I'm not convinced because:-

     

    a) You need penatration to hit a vital

    b) You need a good pattern

    c) Soft shot deforms in the barrel impacting on a) and b) above.

    d) Soft shot deforms more so in fibre cartridges & if your not using fibre then you should be

     

    Additional factors:

     

     

    1. Don’t shoot at extreme range

    2. Don’t shoot beyond your capacity to hit

    3. Practice on clays

    4. Remember, the art of decoying is to bring your birds to you so that you can kill those you shoot at whatever your catrridge or shot size

    5. Remember, these are living creatures that deserve humane dispatch.

     

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    Guest stevo

    Christ sake ......... this was a stupid thread back in 2011. Don't think anything has changed

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    in 12 bore 28 g are more than enough on decoyed pigeons; i would even stretch it to #8 (which i love for doves and summer pigeons) but 7-7 1/2 are good to me;

     

    TBH in 20 bore, i started shooting really heavy (30 g 5) due to old fashion thinking but now dropped down to 25g #6 which does most of my shooting; i found 28-30 overkill the bird

     

    Things are slightly different when roosting or flightlining; for peace of mind i'd go up in payload and pellets size to the 28-30 level and a straight 5; this will help keep the pattern filled even when going through foliage and branches.

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