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Wind your neck in and re-read my posts... no where did I say a I "don't think .22 is a dangerous piece of kit, capable of killing someone" I also never wrote that I didn't think a .22lr was a 'real gun.' I did give CF rifles a cursory 'real' tag.... after all... we used to plink at funfairs with .22s. That is NOT the same as saying a.22 isn't a 'real' gun!! You are also confusing .22lr with 'rimfire' rounds... Rimfire came long before centre fire but they still used big heavy bullets to kill people... the .22lr was never designed as a military round or something that was intended to be used with human sized targets... work on your firearms history..

 

If you can't read and understand a post, please do not get on your soap box and start trying to be 'holier than though.' How dare you take my posts, change the words completely and then "QUOTE" those words, completely out of context and then, pretty much 'threaten' to report me to my FEO..... what planet are you on!!!!

 

A close family friend was killed 6 years ago (just about the same time you were going through puberty! sorry, I know that was immature of me but I just couldn't help myself! :lol: ) with a 12ft/lb .22 air pellet at the age of 16... why on earth would I ever think a .22lr wasn't a lethal round... I've also probably forgotten more about firearms & munitions (military and otherwise) than you will ever know....

 

re-read my posts, absorb them, perhaps go and sit in a dark room and spend a couple of hours mulling them over so you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you understand what they say and the context they were written in and THEN come back and criricize & threaten me! I would also STRONGLY suggest you copy and paste if you intend to quote me as your copy typing leaves EVERYTHING to be desired!!!! :mad:

 

Sorry Viper but it looks as though Horrocks hit a sensitive spot and you have come out fighting, maybe instead you should have eaten humble pie or at least taken a few calming breaths before letting rip as you have let yourself down a bit.

 

Whether you like it or not you did word things rather clumsily when you said:

 

"Do yu know why Bird shot his brother 11 times because it was a .22! they are designed for killing bunnies and knocking cans off walls, it is only the UK gov't who put them in the same bracket as 'real' guns! Like I said, FAR more damage could be done with 10 CF rounds than 50 RF rounds.."

 

So you cannot be too surprised at being clobbered for saying it. You got the response you deserved. I do not know anyone else who would dare suggest, as you most clearly did, that a .22 is not a real gun and of course CF does more damage than RF, what a waste of words. The reference to Bird shooting his brothers was, at best, in very bad taste.

 

As an aside (and as you know!), the extremely low powered .22 round used for plinking at funfairs bears little relationship to the .22 used for hunting so it was a silly remark presumably, and rather childishly, intended to provoke a response - which you got and did not like.

 

Finally, historically the .22 round (in short form) was developed for use in pistols (to kill people!) and over the years was further developed into long and long rifle forms as requirements changed and opportunities arose. You are correct that it was not designed as a military round but it certainly was intended to shoot people.

 

You lost me when you stated:

 

"You are also confusing .22lr with 'rimfire' rounds... Rimfire came long before centre fire but they still used big heavy bullets to kill people... "

 

The .44 Henry rimfire bullet with its 200 or 216 grain head was developed for military use and must have been quite an interesting round as the velocity was similar to a present day subsonic .22LR which, typically, has a 40 grain bullet. My guess is that the trajectory would have been as loopy as hell! Rimfire is only about 20 years older than Centrefire.

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Wind your neck in and re-read my posts... no where did I say a I "don't think .22 is a dangerous piece of kit, capable of killing someone" I also never wrote that I didn't think a .22lr was a 'real gun.' I did give CF rifles a cursory 'real' tag.... after all... we used to plink at funfairs with .22s. That is NOT the same as saying a.22 isn't a 'real' gun!! You are also confusing .22lr with 'rimfire' rounds... Rimfire came long before centre fire but they still used big heavy bullets to kill people... the .22lr was never designed as a military round or something that was intended to be used with human sized targets... work on your firearms history..

 

If you can't read and understand a post, please do not get on your soap box and start trying to be 'holier than though.' How dare you take my posts, change the words completely and then "QUOTE" those words, completely out of context and then, pretty much 'threaten' to report me to my FEO..... what planet are you on!!!!

 

A close family friend was killed 6 years ago (just about the same time you were going through puberty! sorry, I know that was immature of me but I just couldn't help myself! :lol: ) with a 12ft/lb .22 air pellet at the age of 16... why on earth would I ever think a .22lr wasn't a lethal round... I've also probably forgotten more about firearms & munitions (military and otherwise) than you will ever know....

 

re-read my posts, absorb them, perhaps go and sit in a dark room and spend a couple of hours mulling them over so you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you understand what they say and the context they were written in and THEN come back and criricize & threaten me! I would also STRONGLY suggest you copy and paste if you intend to quote me as your copy typing leaves EVERYTHING to be desired!!!! :mad:

 

Chill out Vipa! I'm afraid you HAD written what I had quoted, I'm sure out of context the sentence seemed very slightly more dodgy than it really was, but other members are more than capable of going back and viewing it in context if they so wish. The alternative is (unfortunately) having to quote you in full (as above) thereby giving further publicity to your furious musings, something that I would rather avoid, but hey-ho, I've conceded the above to stop you popping a vein.

 

You're quite right about some rimfire rounds being (in their 1800's pistol/rifle configuration) far more powerful that the .22lr, but the history of the .22 lr (according to Chuck Hawkes) goes back through the .22 short, a cartridge developed for close protection during the civil war. The .22 lr WAS also used as a revolver (and rifle) round for personal protection, before gaining credence as a hunting round. I think I'm right in saying .22lr is still used by some armed forces in pistol configuration, the US navy seals too, apparently. Also police snipers in some urban situations.

 

I'm sorry but I DIDN'T change the order of words, I also DIDN'T threaten you, I simply said that were I to hear an FAC holder (I used the word 'you' unfortunately) claiming that a .22lr was only a 'real' round because the police say so, I would be inclined to move swiftly away from them, and if they continued saying so, report them. As far as my claim about the FAO goes, try it with them next time you get a visit, I'm sure their expression would be a sight.

Vipa, I also wasn't in reciept of your personal history when I wrote my comment, and didn't know a personal friend was killed by an air rifle, even if i did it wouldn't have had much relevance on what I wrote, which was based on what you had written earlier.

 

As far as going and sitting by myself in a darkened room for a couple of hours ....and perhaps this is because of my still relative closeness to puberty you mentioned .... I can think of FAR better things to be getting on with than bothering myself with your (albeit in my opinion) false diatribe.

 

I think you need to get off've your soapbox, if you back off a little you'll find that somewhere in my comment I was trying to make a point and one that still stands.

Edited by Horrocks
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Chill out Vipa! I'm afraid you HAD written what I had quoted, I'm sure out of context the sentence seemed very slightly more dodgy than it really was, but other members are more than capable of going back and viewing it in context if they so wish. The alternative is (unfortunately) having to quote you in full (as above) thereby giving further publicity to your furious musings, something that I would rather avoid, but hey-ho, I've conceded the above to stop you popping a vein.

 

You're quite right about some rimfire rounds being (in their 1800's pistol/rifle configuration) far more powerful that the .22lr, but the history of the .22 lr (according to Chuck Hawkes) goes back through the .22 short, a cartridge developed for close protection during the civil war. The .22 lr WAS also used as a revolver (and rifle) round for personal protection, before gaining credence as a hunting round. I think I'm right in saying .22lr is still used by some armed forces in pistol configuration, the US navy seals too, apparently. Also police snipers in some urban situations.

 

I'm sorry but I DIDN'T change the order of words, I also DIDN'T threaten you, I simply said that were I to hear an FAC holder (I used the word 'you' unfortunately) claiming that a .22lr was only a 'real' round because the police say so, I would be inclined to move swiftly away from them, and if they continued saying so, report them. As far as my claim about the FAO goes, try it with them next time you get a visit, I'm sure their expression would be a sight.

Vipa, I also wasn't in reciept of your personal history when I wrote my comment, and didn't know a personal friend was killed by an air rifle, even if i did it wouldn't have had much relevance on what I wrote, which was based on what you had written earlier.

 

As far as going and sitting by myself in a darkened room for a couple of hours ....and perhaps this is because of my still relative closeness to puberty you mentioned .... I can think of FAR better things to be getting on with than bothering myself with your (albeit in my opinion) false diatribe.

 

I think you need to get off've your soapbox, if you back off a little you'll find that somewhere in my comment I was trying to make a point and one that still stands.

 

Ok... I want you to copy and paste from my original posts where I have said.... "I don't think .22 is a dangerous piece of kit, capable of killing someone" I also want you to copy and paste from my post the part wher I say ".22lr isn't a real round"

 

I wait with bated breath!

 

As I have already said... I refer to CF as 'real' guns in the same way as I would refer to a Honda VFR 800 motorcycle as a 'real' motorcycle when talking about it in the same breath as a 50cc moped... If we use that logic then you should also perhaps berate me if I refer to CFs as 'real' when talking about sub 12ft/lb air rifles too... you are pulling me up on semantics and changing the words (not just misinterpreting them) to fit and justify your response...

 

I am still waiting patiently for you to copy and paste those quotes... I don't want YOUR interpretation of my post, I want quotes of the parts you are having a pop at me about! :hmm:

 

Diadoles.... Sorry mate, not fighting due to any sensitive spots... I mentioned DBs brother not in bad taste but in direct response to the OP as it is instances such as that that he indicated he was 'concerned' about. The reference to DBs brothe 'needing' to be shot 11 times due to the calibre of the weapon was actually a quote from a firearms expert interviewed during the whole debarcle.. And I appologise Diadoles if you were close to the whole affair and my comments offended you but I don't believe in pussy footing around... It happened, it was horrific, I feel for all the victims and their families... but... that doesn't mean the events have to be talked about in dark corners, in whispers and code words because we are too afraid to bring it up! Don't mention the war!

 

What really ****** me off about Horrocks' reply was this "I honestly think you should take a step back and read that again, your FAO would NOT be happy if you expressed that view to him, you wouldn't have been issued an FAC and if I heard you (off the bat) saying that I'd feel inclined to pull you up on it or report you!"

 

Just a tad arrogant a. to presume WHAT my FAO would or wouldn't be happy with and b. to presume to know what would or wouldn't prevent me from getting a FAC! If you know so much, I suggest a career in the force is waiting for you! I guarantee if I was having this same discussion with my FAO, he would understand exactly where I was coming from and not twisted the meaning and context of what was said to his own ends... :rolleyes:

Edited by Vipa
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I see the interpretation of your original mail and kinda see where people are coming from mate. It wasn't worded very well and did suggest things I dont think you meant. Because you wrote it not meaning it that way, you are never going to appreciate how we are all reading it. I know this because I've done it myself!

 

However I completely see your point about the FAO comments and being reported. If you love your sport and you obviously do that kind of comment will feel threatening is unnecessary, is plain out of order and frankly none of Horrocks business in the context of this debate.

 

But lets not hijack the thread with side arguement about interpretation of comments. I'm a big fan of military style .22 kit. Ive found my interest short lived but they are cool bits of kit to play with in the range!

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I see the interpretation of your original mail and kinda see where people are coming from mate. It wasn't worded very well and did suggest things I dont think you meant. Because you wrote it not meaning it that way, you are never going to appreciate how we are all reading it. I know this because I've done it myself!

 

However I completely see your point about the FAO comments and being reported. If you love your sport and you obviously do that kind of comment will feel threatening is unnecessary, is plain out of order and frankly none of Horrocks business in the context of this debate.

 

But lets not hijack the thread with side arguement about interpretation of comments. I'm a big fan of military style .22 kit. Ive found my interest short lived but they are cool bits of kit to play with in the range!

 

Accepted.... :good:

 

misinterpretation in either direction I don't have an issue with, making sentences up I do!

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I've already made the point that I wasnt actually threatening Vipa with reporting him. I merely said that if he were to say what i quoted him saying, I would think about pulling him up, and if he persisted, seriously question his respect for the firearms for which he is licenced, possibly reporting that lack of respect to the police. Vipa, I am sure that were you to say what I quoted, (and the exact quote will follow) your FAO would be furious.

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Do yu know why Bird shot his brother 11 times ??? because it was a .22! they are designed for killing bunnies and knocking cans off walls, it is only the UK gov't who put them in the same bracket as 'real' guns! Like I said, FAR more damage could be done with 10 CF rounds than 50 RF rounds..

 

Stop trolling and let me get back to my dummy spat out boycott of PW....

 

If you are that concerned about future massacres performed by legitimate FAC holders then perhaps you should reduce the future risk and hand yours in... that is if you do actually have one in the first place as you don't seem to a) know much about shooting disciplines or B) have any empathy at all with your fellow shooters..

 

I'm off to bisley next weekend for the Pheonix where most of the comps are 'milteristic'... advancing man, turning targets etc... perhaps we should ban the whole thing because it doesn't involve the only true requirement for guns.... shooting bunnies!

 

Here, the reference to putting .22's in the same bracket as 'real' guns

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I've already made the point that I wasnt actually threatening Vipa with reporting him. I merely said that if he were to say what i quoted him saying, I would think about pulling him up, and if he persisted, seriously question his respect for the firearms for which he is licenced, possibly reporting that lack of respect to the police. Vipa, I am sure that were you to say what I quoted, (and the exact quote will follow) your FAO would be furious.

 

But thats how your comment could be interpreted! You cant poke at him saying youve interpreted his comments in such a way and then not accept that you are guilty of the same thing!

 

I certainly read your initial post as a threat to report (still do based on this last post) but also thought the initial post from Vipa was firearms blase, although not quite as bad as people seem to be making out!! :hmm:

 

Bored with this thread now. That is all :no:

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I have a slot for 22 on my ticket, I AM filling it with one of these so I can enter mini rifle comps (in answer to your question OP.... mini rifle... negates the need for mag changes during the course of fire... allows for better times!)

 

Almost as good as Police Pistol comps... ahhh... I'm getting all teary eyed now..

 

Mini rifle is great fun... just because you find it un-PC.. doesn't mean we should ban them... trust me matey, far more damage could be done with a 10 or 20 rd mag in a .308 than could with a 50rd clip in a .22!!! c'mon... look at some of the other threads on here... I remember the funfair at Great Yarmouth shooting .22s in the shooting gallery!

 

and here. i would expect a responsible FAC holder to treat all firearms the same and with equal respect as potentially lethal weapons. You're quite right about a .308 causing more actual damage, but what's that got to do with it?! a .22 is still perfectly capable of killing someone! it should be treated as such, a potentially dangerous piece of kit that needs to be approached with care and responsibility.

 

And I would also argue that your reaction to Newportshooters original post has been consistently bullying. You told me to read yours, I have, now read Newports, mine and the others that have come close to trying to actually approach the subject about which he was speaking, rather than getting stroppy and browbeating him. there is a serious question posed by this post and its not about breaking down solidarity within the shooting community or making it impossible to get military looking weapons. perhaps more about questioning their application and the image they create when used in the field rather than in the shooting gallery of a practical comp, also the image they give of the sport to younger people (yes younger than me) coming up into it.

Edited by Horrocks
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But thats how your comment could be interpreted! You cant poke at him saying youve interpreted his comments in such a way and then not accept that you are guilty of the same thing!

 

I certainly read your initial post as a threat to report (still do based on this last post) but also thought the initial post from Vipa was firearms blase, although not quite as bad as people seem to be making out!! :hmm:

 

Bored with this thread now. That is all :no:

 

So what?! If i heard someone with a FAC in .22lr saying it wasn't a 'real' gun, I would approach them, and if i thought their approach to firearms lacked the respect these things are due, I would THINK about reporting them. That said i am NOT going to report anyone for what they say on a forum!

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So what?! If i heard someone with a FAC in .22lr saying it wasn't a 'real' gun, I would approach them, and if i thought their approach to firearms lacked the respect these things are due, I would THINK about reporting them. That said i am NOT going to report anyone for what they say on a forum!

 

 

Still waiting for the quotes... :whistling:

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Look up Vipa, I've already posted them.

 

 

Where.... I want you to point out exactly where I said "I don't think .22 is a dangerous piece of kit, capable of killing someone." I haven't written theis or even inferred it in my posts.. again, you are just telling me what your INTERPRETATION of my post is, nothing more.. If you have read in there something that wasn't, then fine but to start questioning my fitness to hold a FAC....... completely out of order..

 

Without wanting to sound like an old ***.... I got my first civilian FAC the year you were born, 5 years before that I started receiving very high level firearms training, first in the TA and then 2 years later in the Royal Military Police.... I think, what I am trying to say is.... show a little respect for those who have considerably more experience than you and stop acting like a jumped up, arrogant little ****!

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Where.... I want you to point out exactly where I said "I don't think .22 is a dangerous piece of kit, capable of killing someone." I haven't written theis or even inferred it in my posts.. again, you are just telling me what your INTERPRETATION of my post is, nothing more.. If you have read in there something that wasn't, then fine but to start questioning my fitness to hold a FAC....... completely out of order..

 

Without wanting to sound like an old ***.... I got my first civilian FAC the year you were born, 5 years before that I started receiving very high level firearms training, first in the TA and then 2 years later in the Royal Military Police.... I think, what I am trying to say is.... show a little respect for those who have considerably more experience than you and stop acting like a jumped up, arrogant little ****!

 

Not once did I question your actual competency to hold an FAC, i disagreed with the way you responded to Newportshooters question, and i disagreed with what some of your posts inferred. Also with the manner in which you addressed the issue of .22lr, it's quite clear you didn't actually mean it in the way it was interpreted by me, just as I didn't mean to suggest that you shouldnt be holding an FAC. I honestly believe that if we stepped back a little we'd agree with alot of what the other has said. I'm sure I tried to make a point at the start, which you haven't adressed.

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So what?! If i heard someone with a FAC in .22lr saying it wasn't a 'real' gun, I would approach them, and if i thought their approach to firearms lacked the respect these things are due, I would THINK about reporting them. That said i am NOT going to report anyone for what they say on a forum!

 

I am glad you added the last sentence to this post because I can't get my head round the fact that you think you could approach someone because you heard them make a comment that makes you think they lacked respect for fire arms. If you were to go to the police making such allegations the first thing they would want to know is what qualifies you to make such a statement. They would then want to know why you found it in your mind that you would be right to approach such a person. My assumption of you, if I was in the job would be that possibly you should be the one that we should be looking at. People are allowed to make any comment they want in a private conversation and as long as they are not disturbing the peace that is fine. You on the other hand by approaching such a person with your high and mighty opinions and no doubt manner (judging by your comments in this thread) could very easily cause an innocent private conversation to escalate into such a breach of the peace or even worse an assault. So please take my advice don't go pulling people up and learn to mind your own business and in doing so you will overt any unwarranted interest in yourself from the authorities. :good:

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