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Guest rimotu66

Syndicate insurence for beaters

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Guest rimotu66

I am looking for insurence for 8 beaters on my syndicate shoot, I have rang NGO and am waiting to hear back from them with a price.

I just wondered if anyone else here has done similar for next season and what the costs where, I need to make a good case to present the other members as one or two of them are shall we say 'thrifty' with there money and are reluctant to cough up the extra cost no matter how much I tell them we need it.

Your thoughts and advice please.

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Guest rimotu66

Thanks Al4x , waiting on them ringing me back, also waiting on BASC insurers Newmoon.

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Just in case anyone thinks being a member of BASC or any other organisation that provide insurance cover for this then think again. Read the small print!

 

As a shoot owner you should have insurance to cover yourself against any claims (where you might be judged to be negligent) from Guns or Beaters or anyone else for that matter. This will not be cheap like BASC membership is, this is more like a commercial insurance.

 

IMO Guns should also be insured (through the likes of BASC) because if they cause a problem/make a mistake where they could be judged to be negligent I see no reason why the shoot should cover that from their insurance...next season you can bet their premiums would go through the roof.

 

For insurance against cancellation/s that has to be taken out by the Guns, a shoot owner cannot do so. You also need to read the small print of these policies as it's no good deciding you can just not turn up on a day. You must be at the shoot to claim for cancellation! Yes I know, insurance company get out of jail free clauses!

 

If employing (I believe) more than 5 people on a shoot then you also have to have a Risk Assessment in place. You can get some of this info from the BASC website (now I'm even doing Davids job (:unsure:)

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Guest rimotu66

Highlander, thanks for your input, our syndicate is a members only one, we do not sell days. All guns have to have there own insurance 'BASC, NGO' or similar as a condition of membership of the syndicate.

What I am trying to get is 3rd party & employers liability cover for the beaters.

 

NFU are asking questions which I do not feel is relevant (how much do the members pay per season) and I am not in a position to give that imformation and do not see why they would want it so thats them out of the running.

I am waiting for BASC and NGO's insurers to get back to me with quotes.

 

I am also having a look into the risk assessment as well.

 

Hope this clears things up a little :good:

Edited by rimotu66

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Hang on a mo, you may not need extra cover - you may already have it.

 

Highlander is 100% correct to point out that if you are running a commercial venture then this would not be covered by the BASC policy.

 

However, as I understand it you are running a recreational shoot, so you are covered for your activities under the BASC policy.

 

All BASC members have public (PL) AND employer liability (EL) cover.

 

The EL cover is there to protect you against claims made by shoot employees such as beaters and pickers up.

 

I suggest, from experience, that the employer on the day will be vicariously liable for the actions of the beaters, as such any PL claim directly related to their work will fall back on the employer.

 

So if the beaters are employed by a BASC member you already have the PL and EL cover in place.

 

David

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how are the economics set up to rule between commercial and recreational for small syndicates David? If you just cover costs then I take it making sure all the guns and the holder of the shooting rights are BASC members makes it fine

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There is no hard and fast definition of where recreational ends and commercial starts in the context of our PL policy.

 

However, as you say if it’s a shoot simply set up by a group of people who share the costs of running the shoot then that is a classic example of a recreational shoot.

 

If you own the sporting rights over a bit of land and you put down birds and then sell off days to others to cover the costs and make money out of the venture then that is a good example of a commercial shoot. You do not need to be making a profit for the shoot to be commercial.

 

If you are a recreational shoot as in the first example, but say let a day or a gun or two on a day to help cover the costs then that’s not commercial, but if you are letting half or more of the days then you are past being recreational!

 

Hope that helps.

 

David

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Guest rimotu66

David, thankyou for your input :good: .

 

We are indeed a recreational shoot by your definition , we are a group of people who are equal members in a syndicate. We do not sell days and almost 100% of the money in is paid out.

I guess our problem with been covered by our own insurance is that not all of us are BASC members, some are members of NGO.

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The issue is who is in charge of the beaters? As no formal written contract is in place, just like almost all recreational shoots then then it boils down to this:

 

The 'control test' - where someone decides how the work should be carried out as opposed to just what is to be done, a master and servant relationship exists, making the employer (master) liable. In the case of shoot the 'keeper' or other delegated person will be in charge of the beaters, tell them where to start, where to stop, which way to go etc. - this person is in control and would pass this test as the employer.

 

The 'integral to business' test - if the employee's work is directly relevant and important to the shoot rather than unimportant, the employer is considered liable for any accident at work. There is no doubt that the beaters are important to the shoot!

 

So you need to check who is in charge of the beaters or indeed other shoot workers. If that person is a BASC member then you have EL and PL in place and do not need to spend extra money on more EL and PL cover for this activity.

 

You are quite right to double check your insurance cover for the activities of the shoot, as I have said many times before, all insurance policies are not the same. So check the full policy wording, by law your insurer has to give it to you, even before you part with your cash, if they don’t do this…wonder why!

 

Some carry and excess you have to pay, for property damage claim – most shooting accidents result in property damage.

 

Most will not cover you if you have any other liability in place and will make you claim on your home insurance for example rather than the 'shooting' association policy, this comes as a nasty surprise when you have an accident and thought you were covered!

 

So in a nutshell it’s almost certainly cheaper for you to make sure whoever is in charge of the beaters / pickers up is a BASC member for the EL and PL cover and spend your money on birds and feed!

 

Regards to all

 

David

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David, thankyou for your input :good: .

 

We are indeed a recreational shoot by your definition , we are a group of people who are equal members in a syndicate. We do not sell days and almost 100% of the money in is paid out.

I guess our problem with been covered by our own insurance is that not all of us are BASC members, some are members of NGO.

 

be cheaper to pay for them to become members than get insurance elsewhere or by Davids definition make someone gun captain and make sure they are a member and in charge of organizing the beaters

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be cheaper to pay for them to become members than get insurance elsewhere or by Davids definition make someone gun captain and make sure they are a member and in charge of organizing the beaters

 

 

Even cheaper if you get the syndicate to affiliate to BASC.

 

webber

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There is no hard and fast definition of where recreational ends and commercial starts in the context of our PL policy.

 

Isn't that always the way with insurance companies though...must have some get out clauses somewhere. You can bet before they'd pay out they'd be looking for some way to avoid liability altogether.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to bash BASCs insurance (it's actually something I always recommend)just be aware of what you might have to deal with when claiming from an insurance company.

 

Good of David to point out that you don't need to spend any more money. Every little helps!

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To be honest I know some insurance providers have a bad rep for trying to wriggle out of paying claims, but as the FSA are now actively policing insurance policies and providers I can assure you that insurers now have to be very up front with the exclusions to cover before you pay up you premium / sub.

 

This is why I find it more than a bit irritating that almost every shooting association apart from BASC do not send out key facts papers and full policy wordings to their members! So without that how the hell do you know what you are covered for?

 

These days the underwriter has just 90 days to accept or deny liability, this helps speed things up, and I have not come across any claims in the last 15 years that have been bounced due to it being a commercial activity…

 

…up till now when a claim landed from a chap a few weeks ago, who admitted he was training gundogs for profit and then tried to make a claim against our policy for damage one of his dogs have done…sorry pal if you run a business you should have business insurance –simple as that!

 

But all boils down to this – any questions about the BASC policy, even after we have sent you a copy etc, please just ask and I will do all I can to help.

 

David

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I know that the person who set up the SACS Insurance Package, which is also sold by NOBS, has categorically stated that it does not cover employees and remember that payment in kind as well as money may be deemed to make a beater an employee. I believe that the package is underwritten by the NFU and I did write to their Head Office for clarification before stumping up my money - never did get an answer!!

Always insist on details of the cover provided and any get out clauses, sometimes even your household policy may cover you as well, check with yout insurers.

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You are correct that payment in kind can make someone an employee, but there does not even need to be any payment, as I said above there are ‘tests’ to see who is an employer / employee, and none of them mention payment.

 

I could not agree more that it’s important to check what is and is not covered under your shooting association policy and what if any excesses you have to pay. Otherwise you may well get a nasty shock when you come to claim.

 

It’s also worth remembering that just about all of the cheap shooting insurance policies only pay out if you can prove no other insurance will cover you.

 

David

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No you are not. The basic NOBS package, to the best of my knowledge, has no insurance cover what so ever.

 

To get insurance with NOBS you has to pay an extra fee to be insured under the SACS policy...

 

 

David

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No you are not. The basic NOBS package, to the best of my knowledge, has no insurance cover what so ever.

 

To get insurance with NOBS you has to pay an extra fee to be insured under the SACS policy...

 

 

David

see my previous post I believe that the cover is for "recreational" use only so a beater is not covered as an employee not for recreation!

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Without getting bogged down about which insurance is best. Can anyone tell me if the NRA insurance would cover me for recreational beating? If not, does the BASC insurance cover this, or would I have to pay a premium to get extra cover?

 

Phil :)

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The BASC insurance certainly would cover you.

 

Can't say for sure with the NRA, as its not clear from their insurance flyer what 'normal shooting' activities are- but a quick call to their brokers should answer this point for you.

 

David

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bear in mind thatb you should be covered by the shoot insurance - in the event of an incident only ONE payment will be made by any insurer - ie if shoot cover pays up then yours wont!

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True unless there is a caveat in the shoot policy that says it won’t pay if ANY other cover is in please. A common exclusion I am seeing these days.

 

David

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Without getting bogged down about which insurance is best. Can anyone tell me if the NRA insurance would cover me for recreational beating? If not, does the BASC insurance cover this, or would I have to pay a premium to get extra cover?

 

Phil :)

 

might be a silly question but why do you want to be insured to go beating?

 

I don't get insured to walk the dog or go for a stroll in the countryside. Sometimes I feel the insurance issue gets taken a bit far, bearing in mind if you get shot it is the guns liability. Most other situations will be covered by a shoots insurance after that you're left with falling over etc

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