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want a .17 but been told will not get granted


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Guys

 

People are going off all over the place here, lets stop the debate.

 

It doesn't matter a jot what the FEO likes or not, if you have the appropriate need, and fulfil the legal requirements he is in no position to argue.

 

I fully understand the reluctance of many people to question a FEO, but many need a kick up the **** and straightening out.

 

Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted!

 

:good:

 

 

Dekers I do not think its up to you to 'stop the debate', you have your little rant about how you see it but don't wind people up and get the post closed which so often happens. We are sharing our experiences from various policing locations on the posted topic. Facts are that the Gloucester FA dept took fox off my hmr, I questioned it and was told they had a change of policy, do you think it will change things if I ring them tomorrow and say Dekers off PW says yr wrong :lol:

 

 

Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again!

 

That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted!

 

After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? :hmm:

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I understand why you've bolded the 'guidelines' bit and yes, it now doesn't state HMR. However, whilst they may only guidelines, you have to remember that the vast majority of FEOs are just police officers who have worked up through the ranks and made it to a niche role.

 

They will look on it as their bible. If it says (in previous editions) that it's recommended that HMR is not good for foxes, they'll use that when people apply for an HMR for foxes. They have the right to go against this 'guidance' but a lot of them will just want to follow the book as it would mean that their backside was covered if anything went wrong - say for example if an Anti managed to get a video of a shooter who only has HMR for fox on video and he's filmed shooting and injuring a fox which gets away. Does he want the grief that would follow, no.

 

 

Billy, I see where you are coming from but the HMR was not in the guidelines for fox because, in effect, it was not in existence when the last guidelines were drawn up, so it was simply not considered. There is no reference to it in any previous guidelines before 2002, as it existed even less then! It may or may not be deemed appropriate in the next guidelines but simply because it does not appear, does it mean it should be excluded from that purpose......what mention of the .204 etc is there in the last guidelines, but thats accepted for fox! :good::good:

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Billy, I see where you are coming from but the HMR was not in the guidelines for fox because, in effect, it was not in existence when the last guidelines were drawn up, so it was simply not considered. There is no reference to it in any previous guidelines before 2002, as it existed even less then! It may or may not be deemed appropriate in the next guidelines but simply because it does not appear, does it mean it should be excluded from that purpose......what mention of the .204 etc is there in the last guidelines, but thats accepted for fox! :good::good:

 

Well in those circumstances then, an FEO without practical firearms experience (God, I can't believe that makes a factual sentence) would err on the side of caution.

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Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again!

 

That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted!

 

After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? :hmm:

Now theres a change Dekers,seeing what others are on about. :lol: Of course the FEO has some say in what happens,you cant just decide on what rifle you have or conditions etc its really out of your hands. Ok it may seem that I like engaging in battle with you, but all this' Do not stand for any bull, don't just roll over and get shafted' advice will not help anybody especially those who are new to firearms. Its far more important to build a trusting relashionship with your local FA dept and FEO,and, from my experience will help you in the long run and prove your good nature. Ok, yes point out Home Office guidelines, offer your experience etc but don't start shouting the law, at the end of the day, even if you belong to an organisation like BASC, with matters like variations and license opening you will find yourself suddenly standing on your own.

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Well in those circumstances then, an FEO without practical firearms experience (God, I can't believe that makes a factual sentence) would err on the side of caution.

 

 

Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that.

 

I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it.

Edited by ordnance
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Guys

 

People are going off all over the place here, lets stop the debate.

 

It doesn't matter a jot what the FEO likes or not, if you have the appropriate need, and fulfil the legal requirements he is in no position to argue.

 

I fully understand the reluctance of many people to question a FEO, but many need a kick up the **** and straightening out.

 

Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted!

 

:good:

 

 

Come on Redrum, I'm struggling to see what you are on about, what on earth have I said that is likely to get the post closed, chill out and read it again!

 

That is an appropriate and realistic response, and like I say, ........ Do not stand for any bull, and if they refuse something (or suggest they are likely too) then QUESTION THEM, don't just roll over and get shafted!

 

After all, which part of their policy has any force of law? :hmm:

 

 

Now theres a change Dekers,seeing what others are on about. :lol: Of course the FEO has some say in what happens, you cant just decide on what rifle you have or conditions etc its really out of your hands. Ok it may seem that I like engaging in battle with you, but all this' Do not stand for any bull, don't just roll over and get shafted' advice will not help anybody especially those who are new to firearms. Its far more important to build a trusting relashionship with your local FA dept and FEO,and, from my experience will help you in the long run and prove your good nature. Ok, yes point out Home Office guidelines, offer your experience etc but don't start shouting the law, at the end of the day, even if you belong to an organisation like BASC, with matters like variations and license opening you will find yourself suddenly standing on your own.

 

 

Flippen ek Redrum, have you been on the juice tonight, may I once more suggest you read my post again.

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Sorry but I dont consider .17 HMR a suitable fox caliber it will kill fox but not always humanely .22 center fire much better try for a .222 or .223 just save up a little more

 

Deershooter

 

 

Deershooter, we are all entitled to an opinion, but this thread is not about whether you or anyone here consider 17HMR humane for fox, it is about what a region may do.

 

You are opening up another whole can of worms with this post, and as you correctly say IT WILL KILL FOX. :yes::good:

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Redgum, I realise you had some strife with your HMR; you should have argued. Simply why - the guidelines and law state each case should be considered on its own merit, sympathetic to the needs of the shooter. On that basis, it matters not a jot what their policy is - if the condition for fox is on there originallly and nothing changes with you then that condition should stay.

 

Please note - there are ways of arguing things. Don't have to throw toys out of pram - you can be constructive. Knowing and arguing the law is your right; being an #### is not. Firearms departments will in the main respect this.

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I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it.

 

No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol.

 

If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm.

 

I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO.

Edited by Billy.
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Redgum, I realise you had some strife with your HMR; you should have argued. Simply why - the guidelines and law state each case should be considered on its own merit, sympathetic to the needs of the shooter. On that basis, it matters not a jot what their policy is - if the condition for fox is on there originallly and nothing changes with you then that condition should stay.

 

Please note - there are ways of arguing things. Don't have to throw toys out of pram - you can be constructive. Knowing and arguing the law is your right; being an #### is not. Firearms departments will in the main respect this.

 

As I stated in a previous post the fox condition was removed from hmr condition when the license was in for an increase in centrefire ammunition holding, I called the department the second I recieved my license back and asked why and the response was that the department had some new legislation,I commented that this seemed a little odd as I had not heard of any law change but the FEO was sticking to his version of events. Maybe Gloucester Police dept had made a mistake in the first place in puttin fox on for hmr, after all it was also on the 243.

 

Whatever is said about ones rights and knowing the law, what happens when there isnt any law eg hmr and fox's, fox's not being vermin etc. There is NO law that says hmr is legal or not legal to be used for fox, nor 22lr and what about shotgun pellet size, but if its not down on your license then surely it then becomes a matter of law ( does that make sense ). One thing is for sure and if your department don't like HMR's being used for fox then they will not put it on your license, whether you go out and use it for fox under the cloak of vermin is up to you, and if you do I'm sure you won't be the first along with many thousands of .22lr owners.( as stated in a previous post, there has been no conviction as yet.)

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Oh to live in your world ordnance !

 

Simple answer get a .22LR and a shotgun! Job done for rabbits and fox!

 

Shotgun could be section 2 or 1 or a combi gun? Really want to wind the FEO up ask for .22LR, .17HMR multishot shotgun and slug. I bet they'll give you a .22LR and .17HMR if you drop multi shot shotgun and slugs as long as Fox is on your .17HMR

 

BASC offer great advice do join up and ask their firearms team for the proper info to back your claims

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No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol.

 

If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm.

 

I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO.

 

Thank goodness you don't listen to Deckers Billy,this is how it works.

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I am in Kent and they do allow the 17HMR for Fox. My FAC says

22lr for pest/vermin

17hmr for pest/vermin/fox

223 for pest/vermin/fox

The question is not whether the 17HMR is suitable for fox or if the FEO likes/dislikes a certain calibre. The question is can you demonstrate a good need for the 17HMR and can you satisfy the enquiries officer of that need. I had to get my rifles in stages, 22lr, then added the 17hmr and 223. My FEO wanted me to "gain open land experience" with the 22lr before he would grant the 17hmr and 223 even though I had been using shotguns on open land for 25+ years. He suggested I wait 3 months then reapply, i did and got them. Sometimes you have to just play the game.

Edited by Bradders
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Sorry but I dont consider .17 HMR a suitable fox caliber it will kill fox but not always humanely .22 center fire much better try for a .222 or .223 just save up a little more

 

Deershooter

 

I am with you on that one, the most unpredictable gun i ever owned on terminals. Very different behavour at different ranges. If i only ever used it for Rabbits at 100-130yds in conditions of very light predictable wind i would have another any day but as an all round vermin, fox and ground game gun it cannot hold a candle to the Hornet

 

The guidelines start with .17 rem c/fire and .22 Hornet, why not just go for one of them? Your gonna be lucky to find a good used .17 rem for under £300 though you might just manage it with an older Hornet, you cannot realy shoot the barrel out on a .22 hornet so just look for and avoid ones with sighns of DIY "improvement" or total neglect. The Hornet is everything the HMR was origonally billed as and more besides. The only downside is the extra cost of ammo if you don't reload your looking at double or more, reloading makes it very slightly cheaper than the HMR

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the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin.

 

However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues.

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the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin.

 

However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues.

 

From the Homeoffice guidelines to Police

 

The term “vermin” is not

defined in law, but it may include destructive

species that cause damage to crops or

property such as rabbits, mink, stoat, weasel,

brown rat, and grey squirrel, as well as some

birds such as wood pigeon, rook and crow.

Foxes are dealt with in paragraphs 13.23 and

13.24.

 

and......

 

13.23 Common rifle cartridges considered

suitable for the shooting of foxes range from

.17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250

and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range

of suitable similar calibres commercially

available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets

aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to

use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes

they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or

6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfire is generally

too low-powered to be used against fox

except at short range, but may reasonably be

permitted for use against such quarry in

certain circumstances. However, sole use

against fox would not normally be sufficient

“good reason” to acquire such a rifle (see

paragraph 13.15).

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the condiions on my ticket state i can control vermin with both my 22lr and 17 hmr , its quite open to interpretation but i have been told that the fox is classed as vermin.

 

However i know that North wales firearms dept will NOT grant you a .17hmr for the destruction of foxes but seem to be keen to push the 17 hmr as a replacement for the .22 LR due to riccochet issues.

 

unfotunatly lead by the hype- they still bounce :rolleyes: this leads to people pushing the safe limits IMO rather than erring on the side of caution

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To be quite honest I think that the HMR is running a bit short on power for Foxes. Yes it will do it, I've had one and shot Foxes with it but a lot don't go down well. Some drop on the spot but some isn't the result I'm looking for.

 

I really think the Hornet would do a perfect job for you. It certainly does for me and it sounds like what you want to do is similar to my situation. Coiuld you not perhaps stretch the budget a little to do things right first time? :unsure:

 

Edit... Have a look here

Edited by njc110381
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I think I'm going to replace my hmr with a hornet, especially as I really enjoy reloading for other calibres and bar a set of dies just about ready to go. I agree with hmr being underpowered for fox, definatly past 100yds anyway, I originally had fox on my hmr to shoot trapped animals (they would let me have it for .22lr, crazy) and am not fussed about the condition being off, the 243 is an extremely effective long range tool for the job.

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Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that.

 

I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it.

 

Nonsense. Your FEO has the ability to decide whether you get a firearm or not. If he deems you to be unsuitable then you won't get it. If it was as simple as you, or as you make it out to be, we could all have armouries full of guns if we did so wish. La la land comes to mind :lol:

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Well if i am in a gun club and i want a new pistol. All the FEO has to do is check all my paper work is correct then i get my new pistol. What firearms knowledge dose the FEO have to have to do that.

 

I will say again he doesn't deside weather i get it or not if everything is in order then i get it.

 

 

No, you are wrong. He does decide if you get it or not. It's got nothing to do with you being eligible to own one. He is employed to ensure that things don't get out of hand and that someone doesn't secretly amass a small arsenal. Fair enough, if you've got a good enough reason and you are able to satisfy the FEO/Chief of Police, then yes, you can get another pistol. If he decides you can't have a pistol, he can say no. You might not agree and you're welcome to take it up with his chief, but at the end of the day they will fight you through the courts if they don't want you to have another firearm.

 

I am interested then. Who, apart from the FEOs chief decides that you can or cannot have a firearm? The Chief of police may sign off a firearm to an individual, but they don't want to get their hands dirty with the refusal of firearms, so they give that task to the FEO.

 

 

Thank goodness you don't listen to Deckers Billy,this is how it works.

 

 

Guys, try reading what ordnance said, you diss him and then agree with him and Redrum just jumps on the bandwagon again without any thought.

 

It goes like this Redrum......I have the FAC and SGC tools I want, (7 on the FAC currently, just approved for the 2 additional I asked for, that will make 9 in total on the FAC) conditioned for ALL purposes on an Open FAC, including Fox on ALL my Rimfires, it seems you don't, so, just who do you think is in the best position to offer advice as to how to get what you want?

 

Will you stop sniping take a chill pill and grow up, what is the matter with you recently?!

Edited by Dekers
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Oh to live in your world ordnance !

 

Simple answer get a .22LR and a shotgun! Job done for rabbits and fox!

 

Shotgun could be section 2 or 1 or a combi gun? Really want to wind the FEO up ask for .22LR, .17HMR multishot shotgun and slug. I bet they'll give you a .22LR and .17HMR if you drop multi shot shotgun and slugs as long as Fox is on your .17HMR

 

BASC offer great advice do join up and ask their firearms team for the proper info to back your claims

 

Not sure what you mean if i apply for a firearm the only contact i have with my FEO is when he comes out to check my gun safe and security if its for a.22 ect then he will check the land is suitable. If its for a handgun then he will take it for a ballistic test. The form goes to the firearms branch and if everything is in order then they the certificate is issued. As for 12 bore slugs they are baned here.

Edited by ordnance
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Nonsense. Your FEO has the ability to decide whether you get a firearm or not. If he deems you to be unsuitable then you won't get it. If it was as simple as you, or as you make it out to be, we could all have armouries full of guns if we did so wish. La la land comes to mind :lol:

 

You mustn't of read my post i said if everything is in order suitability ect. Its not my FEO that would deside it would be firearms branch Lisnasharragh PSNI.

 

How Manny guns would you need for you to have an armoury of guns 2 -10- 20. ?

Edited by ordnance
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