Cocker Spaniel - Problem

[scolopax]

My brother has a two year old cocker bitch, so this is his first season working her. She has no interest in retrieving anything, not a dead bird, not a dummy, a tennis ball, a rolled up sock etc etc all she wants to do is hunt then hunt some more. She is quite hot but with alot of attention he has managed so far to rein her in and get a very useful beating dog out of her, although she needs to be watched 100% and gets very excited when confronted with a wall of birds at the flushing point, so much so he can not trust her and puts her on a lead (not a problem really).

 

He was not bothered by the lack of retrieving instinct as both his previous springers were not all that interested in retrieving but picked it up (excuse the pun) when he started beating with them and both became good all round dogs.

 

Now to the problem, the cocker has started to peg one or two, and not just peg them but kill them, the more they flap and squeak the more she bites them. We were discussing this last night and I suggested it may be an option to give her a right good ####ing when he gets to her, as she will not retrieve anyway it would hardly put her off. But then he said yesterday without any encouragement she picked up a dead hen and carried it a couple of feet before dropping it but then showed no interest in going back and completing the retrieve, she just wanted to get into the next bramble patch and find her next pheasant. This is the first time she has ever picked up a bird.

 

Any suggestions ?? He said he is not too concerned about the not retrieving bit, but is worried he has a 'bird killer' on his hands.

[rubythedog]

back to basic training on a playing field i think bud, if your dog will not pick a dummy then take the dog over to it, pick up the dummy and put it in his mouth and give the command (fetch) repeate this many times so the dog understand what your after. after you crack this! give the dog very short reteives, that way if she dos not pick the dummy you can jump on her stright away. also try and walk the dog on a lead with the dummy in her mouth to get her used to carrying. on retreves only praise her up when she gets that dummy all the back to you and make sure if she dos spit it then you put it back in her mouth to finish the retreive ( then praise) repeat is the key goal my friend. as for the killing of birds etc i think the dog is getting a little to excited and is not yet steady to game, i for one would stop hunting with her for a little while why to sort these toothing problems out. its sounds like she is a good little grafter and at two year old you have plenty of years to come hunting together so id say take a little time out from hunting and get the job done right...

 

good luck, i for one no that sometimes these things can drive you crazy but when you get it right its just a true blessing to work side by side with your dog. as you no.

[straightbarrel]

To have had one dog that isn't at all interested in retrieving would be bad luck at best. Two have had 2 or 3 begs the question- has any training at all been put in place(the hard work)? Asking advice on the basics when a dog reaches 2 or 2 and a half years old is just mind numbing. Having a dog that basically is doing nothing well apart from chase birds and then to go on to say he puts the dog on a lead when it's faced with a wall of birds, because it cant be trusted...then to follow that up with saying it isn't a problem really!!!?

 

Please tell me this is a wind up, please. What you are actually saying is he has an animal that is happy to chase birds and murder them, full stop? My mates lizard will do that.

Edited December 2, 2011 by straightbarrel

[WGD]

My advice to your brother would be to get a few decent books and DVDs and educate himself as to how a gundog is supposed to behave before ruining another one. This one sounds too far gone TBH.

[fenboy]

The thing with cockers is they love to hunt as do springers it natural for them and they should need little training in that respect. as retrievers its not so natural , so I would start all the early training based on retrieving keep the dog away from ground with game on for a start and just get them retrieving balls,toys etc before moving to dummies and dead stuff .

Having said that if the dog is pegging and killing birds I fear it may be too late.

[straightbarrel]

My brother has a two year old cocker bitch, so this is his first season working her. She has no interest in retrieving anything, not a dead bird, not a dummy, a tennis ball, a rolled up sock etc etc all she wants to do is hunt then hunt some more. She is quite hot but with alot of attention he has managed so far to rein her in and get a very useful beating dog out of her, although she needs to be watched 100% and gets very excited when confronted with a wall of birds at the flushing point, so much so he can not trust her and puts her on a lead (not a problem really).

 

He was not bothered by the lack of retrieving instinct as both his previous springers were not all that interested in retrieving but picked it up (excuse the pun) when he started beating with them and both became good all round dogs.

 

Now to the problem, the cocker has started to peg one or two, and not just peg them but kill them, the more they flap and squeak the more she bites them.

 

Any suggestions ?? He said he is not too concerned about the not retrieving bit, but is worried he has a 'bird killer' on his hands.

 

Look on the bright side...the guns will save a fortune on cartridges!

[utectok]

I sympathise with you training dogs takes time and patience. I find lessons helped me if not the dog! Unfortunately I find PW is not the best place for a sympathetic helpful hearing on dog matters. You tend to get alot of back to basics ( good advice nearly always btw) and you've ruined your dog comments. Serious dog trainers can be pretty ruthless bunch it seems? Im reluctant to advise except to keep to simple achievable tasks and repeat them half a dozen times. Anyway good luck make sure you and the dog enjoy it.

[straightbarrel]

I sympathise with you WHY training dogs takes time and patience. I find lessons helped me if not the dog! Unfortunately I find PW is not the best place for a sympathetic helpful hearing on dog matters. You tend to get alot of back to basics ( good advice nearly always btw) and you've ruined your dog comments. Serious dog trainers can be pretty ruthless bunch it seems? Im reluctant to advise except to keep to simple achievable tasks and repeat them half a dozen times. Anyway good luck make sure you and the dog enjoy it.

 

The guy has not had the time or patience to make an effort with THREE spaniels he has had. Not only that, he has asked someone else to do the dirty work for him in finding out just where he has gone wrong, and if you read the orig post...it sounds like he thinks the dog is going wrong somewhere!

[utectok]

Oops thought that might Upset some sorry :(

Edited December 2, 2011 by utectok

[kent]

Well did he expect it to just know what to do all on its own. sounds like its gonna be an uphill struggle as all the stages have been omited in its training

[eccles]

I agree with Fenboy I have had dozens of Labs ESS and cockers, i start mine as young as 6 to 8 weeks i just leave tennis balls + bits of dried rabbit skins in the garden to play and pick up.I just sit on my back side and just call them up to me.Just roll them about a few feet they all love to do this trick.All the pups i have ever sold have all been carrying tennis balls at 8 weeks.By the time they are 16 weeks they should be coming in with ball retrieves to hand happily.You must spend the time playing with young pups, lots of 5 to 10 min spells.I know a lot of the top trainers who use this method.I've got lots of pics of pups doing this.I dont let dogs retrieve the real thing till they are perfect on dummies etc. If i could only bloody find out how to add them on this Forum. :lol: Have Trialed ESS many years ago. Done years of picking up etc.

I have just ordered Today a cocker pup not born yet By FTCH Maesyderwen Scimiter dam Trial dog by FTCH x FTCH. will try to get some help on how to add pics and show you how she will be getting on. DON'T RUSH THE BASICS Terry.

[al4x]

ok in this case it sounds like the dog has had a certain amount of training the simple fact it can be taken beating suggests it isn't that far away from there. Ok retrieving sounds like its not been a focus but personally my dog won't take to dummy training bores her senseless, I like to think it shows a bit more intelligence

So you go from there with the basic obedience to beating and get a dog to hunt out game but ideally not catch it which is all asking quite a lot of them, like it or not but I'm yet to go on a shoot and meet a dog that has never pegged one. What you can't tell is whether they have been pricked before hence the sitting tight or whether they just decided to, then getting them out of thick cover can result in some marks to the birds. Mine took a while to get used to retrieving and still isn't great if the game is struggling and flapping about, she will bring back the odd one while beating but not too often considering she will flush a few hundred on a shoot day I had the first one of this season last week so one in 10 outings isn't bad. What he may find is the birds will be a bit more educated now so it may happen less. All I can suggest is keep it closer and try and pre empt it and if possible try some dogging in / walking round the boundaries so the dog sees a lot more birds and gets a bit less keen. It may well sort itself if he can keep on with the basics

[scolopax]

Blooming heck, you lot are a harsh bunch! Now if some of you were to read the post properly you might see that it is not my dog. Secondly his other two springers were not ruined, both were very good dogs, they were just extremely slow starters with retrieving, and only really started when they went beating. Thirdly - it does not chase!! I never said it did, it may want to, really want to, but he has got on top of it and it works a nice 15-20 yards quarter.

 

What I did not mention was that he got the dog at a year old, an unwanted pet from working stock. First thing he did was try and get it interested in tennis balls etc, it would not even chase one never mind bring it back. Whatever he thought of the dog at best would give it a sniff and then come back, even a dead bird was basically ignored. Not interested. From the start it was also obvious that it was very 'hot', so alot of time was spent on the basics, heal, stop, stay, and because it was 'hot', the stop was extremely important. i.e useful to stop it chasing.

 

So back to the original problem, not interested in dead birds, but when it manages to get hold of a live one wants to kill it, well things have moved on from last post as he had her out yesterday on the same estate. Pegged two more, which is not unusual as there are alot of return drives so pricked birds are often encountered, did not kill either but retrieved them, first one to hand, second one dropped half way. Bit bizarre but hey, thats dogs for you. So something to work with.

[straightbarrel]

Blooming heck, you lot are a harsh bunch! Now if some of you were to read the post properly you might see that it is not my dog. Secondly his other two springers were not ruined, both were very good dogs, they were just extremely slow starters with retrieving, and only really started when they went beating. Thirdly - it does not chase!! I never said it did, it may want to, really want to, but he has got on top of it and it works a nice 15-20 yards quarter.

the other spaniels he had were extremely slow starters,didn't retrieve until he went beating? A- In my opinion if he wanted them to retrieve he should have put the groundwork in first when they were young.B- You say it does not chase but wants to, we got that! The reason it doesn't chase is because he has to put a rope around it's neck...that is how he "got on top of" that little problem.

What I did not mention was that he got the dog at a year old, an unwanted pet from working stock. First thing he did was try and get it interested in tennis balls etc, it would not even chase one never mind bring it back. Whatever he thought of the dog at best would give it a sniff and then come back, even a dead bird was basically ignored. Not interested. From the start it was also obvious that it was very 'hot', so alot of time was spent on the basics, heal, stop, stay, and because it was 'hot', the stop was extremely important. i.e useful to stop it chasing.

Not enough time spent on the basics or the basics not being shown to the dog correctly.So back to the original problem, not interested in dead birds, but when it manages to get hold of a live one wants to kill it, well things have moved on from last post as he had her out yesterday on the same estate. Pegged two more, which is not unusual as there are alot of return drives so pricked birds are often encountered, did not kill either but retrieved them, first one to hand, second one dropped half way. Bit bizarre but hey, thats dogs for you. So something to work with.

Not the place to be learning/teaching a dog the basics.[/

 

 

 

Good luck.

Edited December 3, 2011 by straightbarrel

[utectok]

my dog has pegged the odd bird this year. I guess if you expect them to run down winged birds which my dog does excellently then it must be hard if they fond a hard sitter? Not sure how to prevent it though but in my case a couple a season doesn't seem too bad odviously a disater if you were trailing but hey ho im a rough shot mainly

Edited December 3, 2011 by utectok

[eccles]

Blooming heck, you lot are a harsh bunch! Now if some of you were to read the post properly you might see that it is not my dog. Secondly his other two springers were not ruined, both were very good dogs, they were just extremely slow starters with retrieving, and only really started when they went beating. Thirdly - it does not chase!! I never said it did, it may want to, really want to, but he has got on top of it and it works a nice 15-20 yards quarter.

 

What I did not mention was that he got the dog at a year old, an unwanted pet from working stock. First thing he did was try and get it interested in tennis balls etc, it would not even chase one never mind bring it back. Whatever he thought of the dog at best would give it a sniff and then come back, even a dead bird was basically ignored. Not interested. From the start it was also obvious that it was very 'hot', so alot of time was spent on the basics, heal, stop, stay, and because it was 'hot', the stop was extremely important. i.e useful to stop it chasing.

 

So back to the original problem, not interested in dead birds, but when it manages to get hold of a live one wants to kill it, well things have moved on from last post as he had her out yesterday on the same estate. Pegged two more, which is not unusual as there are alot of return drives so pricked birds are often encountered, did not kill either but retrieved them, first one to hand, second one dropped half way. Bit bizarre but hey, thats dogs for you. So something to work with.

[straightbarrel]

my dog has pegged the odd bird this year. I guess if you expect them to run down winged birds which my dog does excellently then it must be hard if they fond a hard sitter? Not sure how to prevent it though but in my case a couple a season doesn't seem too bad odviously a disater if you were trailing but hey ho im a rough shot mainly

 

Fair enough, if that is what you are happy with, you have not asked for advice via someone else on how to rectify your problem. This poster is seeking advice on a dog that can not be trusted at all and has to be restrained when faced with anything that has a pulse. Is it a coincidence that all three spaniels he (the posters brother) has owned have been not fit for purpose. Two of them were just 'slow starters' and the third has had little or no groundwork put in place before being allowed to work for real.

[eccles]

Re read your problem.Ok get your point on pegging birds.Yes most dogs will peg a bird but if it had been trained a bit more a simple shout of leave it should be enough.If mine dont leave it i check if not pricked or wounded and make the dog watch it go away with repeated leave it.It sounds like his dog is getting better with a bit more experience

[kent]

Blooming heck, you lot are a harsh bunch! Now if some of you were to read the post properly you might see that it is not my dog. Secondly his other two springers were not ruined, both were very good dogs, they were just extremely slow starters with retrieving, and only really started when they went beating. Thirdly - it does not chase!! I never said it did, it may want to, really want to, but he has got on top of it and it works a nice 15-20 yards quarter.

 

What I did not mention was that he got the dog at a year old, an unwanted pet from working stock. First thing he did was try and get it interested in tennis balls etc, it would not even chase one never mind bring it back. Whatever he thought of the dog at best would give it a sniff and then come back, even a dead bird was basically ignored. Not interested. From the start it was also obvious that it was very 'hot', so alot of time was spent on the basics, heal, stop, stay, and because it was 'hot', the stop was extremely important. i.e useful to stop it chasing.

 

So back to the original problem, not interested in dead birds, but when it manages to get hold of a live one wants to kill it, well things have moved on from last post as he had her out yesterday on the same estate. Pegged two more, which is not unusual as there are alot of return drives so pricked birds are often encountered, did not kill either but retrieved them, first one to hand, second one dropped half way. Bit bizarre but hey, thats dogs for you. So something to work with.

 

 

Realise its not yours but a third party. Yet consider he got the dog as a year old cast off and in another year its in the field. He failed to get it to retrieve anything so gave up and its now doing it on its own, whatever anyone suggests will not be worked through with any conviction by the owner- the retrieving issues encountered makes this fact glaringly obvious, any sucesses with this dog will be pure luck

[rubythedog]

come on lads, some posts here are indeed very harsh and even boardering on insulting. its a fair point that the basic training has not been layed down right and its plain to see but were all like minded lads so why not give some good advice to get this lad back on track? fact is very few of us have a near perfect dog, were not all ian openshaw and run with top class dogs so give the lad a push on and help him or his brother enjoy working there dog a little more.

[rubythedog]

and what kent says is true, the handler has got to whant to make this happen.

[kent]

come on lads, some posts here are indeed very harsh and even boardering on insulting. its a fair point that the basic training has not been layed down right and its plain to see but were all like minded lads so why not give some good advice to get this lad back on track? fact is very few of us have a near perfect dog, were not all ian openshaw and run with top class dogs so give the lad a push on and help him or his brother enjoy working there dog a little more.

 

Believe it or not the guy you mention don't fall over good dogs either, he trains them . The bit that upsets me here as it sounds like this dog will end up being re-homed yet again as to get back from W to A and start again takes a lot more from the trainer than starting at A and quite frankly few trainers amature or pro and also few dogs can actually achieve it.

[scolopax]

Why would he want to re home it ? Not everybodt desires a dog of field trial standard. Believe it or not for a beating dog retrieving is not the be all and end all. As for killing/ pegging, definately not desirable but on the big shoot we go on a couple of brace a day is no problem whatsoever, in fact most of the dogs present will pick7peg that many during the course of a shoot day. A couple of brace a drive may be problem but we are not there yet.

[rubythedog]

Believe it or not the guy you mention don't fall over good dogs either, he trains them . The bit that upsets me here as it sounds like this dog will end up being re-homed yet again as to get back from W to A and start again takes a lot more from the trainer than starting at A and quite frankly few trainers amature or pro and also few dogs can actually achieve it.

 

 

hi kent, i agree that its mutch harder to go back over and start again with a dog, for a amature it can be a very testing time and that guy will need bags of patients. i realy think its all about what you whant out of the dog, 99% of us use them for general hunting purpose and not trialing! therfor the dog dos not need to be perfect but dos need to be at a fair standerd otherwise the dog is more of a hinderence than help. i personaly dont like to right a dog off at two years of age and strongly beleave in the right hands a good partner can be made of that dog. hopefully this will work out for the dogs sake! its a shame for them to be pushed from pilla to post but to be fair, no one has said its going to be re homed as such.

 

fingers crossed

[cocker boy]

scolopax, whats the dogs breeding?