Spaniel men

[Hup]

Just wondering how many of you chaps keep Spaniels for hunting. Do any of you run them in trials?

I have a 4 year old bitch that has just been bred for the first time, to a rather handsome fellow from Canada. I am looking to possibly keep a dog from the litter. I have run a few trials here, without much success. My bitch seems to always be down too long and get into rather strange situations. She usually winds up running out of gas on me. She also has a bad habit of being a bit un-timely in her seasons.

I see adverts for quite a few good looking dogs at stud from your side of the pond. Wondering who has the go to dogs there?

I really like the looks of Will Clulee's dogs but I just don't know the game over there. Who would you suggest?

[straightbarrel]

Just wondering how many of you chaps keep Spaniels for hunting. Do any of you run them in trials?

I have a 4 year old bitch that has just been bred for the first time, to a rather handsome fellow from Canada. I am looking to possibly keep a dog from the litter. I have run a few trials here, without much success. My bitch seems to always be down too long and get into rather strange situations. She usually winds up running out of gas on me. She also has a bad habit of being a bit un-timely in her seasons.

I see adverts for quite a few good looking dogs at stud from your side of the pond. Wondering who has the go to dogs there?

I really like the looks of Will Clulee's dogs but I just don't know the game over there. Who would you suggest?

Is the bitch you have just bred from the same bitch that has been "running out of gas on you"?

[t jack]

if youre after quality spaniels look no further than Ian openshaw at rytex kennels, hes on his 97th FTCH now i beleive, the record speaks for itself

 

He often exports fully trained dogs to America if that is what you were after

[Hup]

Straightbarrel yes -- same bitch. Not as you might be suggesting. She runs out of gas from being down 3 times longer than any other dog on the same course. more bad luck than anything... could be my Irish Luck.

Jack... I have seen a few of Ian's dogs here in the States all smashing good.

I might see if it could be possible to import just the necessary ingredients, without buying the whole dog

[straightbarrel]

I would personally say make sure you have the tools for the job within yourself first, then start to question whether or not you have a dog that is capable or not. The post above is quite right though, Ian Openshaw has a record second to none as an owner, trainer, handler and breeder. Only fair to add that his wife has played a massive part in the success of their kennels also.

Edited December 9, 2011 by straightbarrel

[Hup]

I have only been playing the field trial game for a few years. I have no illusions of making up a champion any time real soon. Just learning the game of handling a dog properly could take many more years. I do, however need to add to my kennel. A single bitch leaves few options. Even fewer when she is due to whelp.

Possibly I need to come visit with Ian and see his dogs.

[utectok]

I'd worry about breeding from a dog that runs out of gas :( my spaniel (cocker) goes like a mad thing all day long even today through rushes water thick cover she was desperate to keep on after 5 hours.. Not me though

[cracker]

I'd worry about breeding from a dog that runs out of gas :(

 

Think Hup might be conveying "runs out of gas" as exclusive to US spaniel trials. The dogs run in braces and "wiper" a bird field - as in windscreen wiper not eyewipe - and go to and fro at 100mph. Their run usually lasts a short time so it's a sprint not a marathon. His dog apparently has had some bad luck in the bird-finding department (only birds in US trials) and has apparently pressed ahead even harder to come up with a "find."

 

As a roughshooter's dog, or "hunting dog" in the US, a spaniel will tailor - and temper - its questing pattern. That means working at a more normal spaniel pace. Trials are a different story - almost as much artifice as US retriever trials (with planted birds) and the dogs are encouraged to make a "bold flush" which also accounts - thanks to the planting of birds - for plenty of pegging. (US spaniels aren't penalized for pegging, as they've been coaxed and "coached" into pouncing on the bird or going airborne in an attempt to snatch it in flight.)

 

So in short, unless Hup's not telling us a particular or peculiar reason as to why his dog "gets gassed," wouldn't think he has any worries a'tall about her performance afield - or reticence to breed by her.

 

MG

Edited December 10, 2011 by cracker

[utectok]

Interesting Cracker thanks for that. If a normal spaniel pace is going as hard as I've seen some cockers work I hate to think what a sprint is like !!! blimey :blink:

[straightbarrel]

Think Hup might be conveying "runs out of gas" as exclusive to US spaniel trials. The dogs run in braces and "wiper" a bird field - as in windscreen wiper not eyewipe - and go to and fro at 100mph. Their run usually lasts a short time so it's a sprint not a marathon.MG

 

Running out of gas, is running out of gas, if he has trained, excercised and fed the bitch in the correct way to gain a performance from her, and she is running out of gas, does it matter whether it's in the USA, UK, Timbuktu or the moon, she runs out of gas.

Edited December 10, 2011 by straightbarrel

[cracker]

Running out of gas, is running out of gas, if he has trained, excercised and fed the bitch in the correct way to gain a performance from her, and she is running out of gas, does it matter whether it's in the USA, UK, Timbuktu or the moon, she runs out of gas.

 

Could be, straight, but again don't be so literal. Running out of gas means slowing down near the end - not coming to a complete stop. And if you've never seen a US spaniel field trial - as you hadn't with a US retriever trial - might behoove you to understand why a dog would run out of gas or be perceived as such.

 

"Getting a performance out of her" might be running a trial on a 100-degree (F) day, might be running through waist-high cover on that 100-degree day, and might also mean, as I noted above, that the dog's run was extended longer than others because she didn't come up with a find.

 

Everything you "does-it-matter'd" about above, does indeed matter given those circumstances - even more so in retriever trials but just the same in spaniel trials. You might be interested to know that a number of yours who've become "ours" by immigration - trainers - happen to live and train in Texas, in the heat, so their spaniels are proofed against such situations and "test-driven" for encountering them in trials.

 

And spaniel trials in the US are judged pretty severely on "style," which means if Hup's dog's questing flags and others don't, she gets dropped. Because there's almost never any running in, they stop - and drop - on a dime on their flush, and except for honouring a bracemate (or failing to), there's really not a whole lot to differentiate the competitors.

 

It's a big country, straight - and unlike timbuktu or the moon, lot of different weather conditions at a given time, or time of year. Trainers here - pro trainers who train most US dogs for trials - "follow the weather" all year so they can get, pardon the pun, more mileage out of it in their training. They don't often run out of gas getting where they're going - and that goes for their dogs, too.

 

MG

[WGD]

Running out of gas, is running out of gas, if he has trained, excercised and fed the bitch in the correct way to gain a performance from her, and she is running out of gas, does it matter whether it's in the USA, UK, Timbuktu or the moon, she runs out of gas.

 

He's already said the dog is down, which i assume is hunting, for up to 3 times as long as other dogs in the trial. Any dog will slow up if asked to run three times as long as a competitor. How long is a long run in UK spaniel trials?

[straightbarrel]

He's already said the dog is down, which i assume is hunting, for up to 3 times as long as other dogs in the trial. Any dog will slow up if asked to run three times as long as a competitor. How long is a long run in UK spaniel trials?

 

Why? He has already said she is continually running out of gas, if she is continually running out of gas and doing three times as much work as the other dogs in the trials, why? Sounds like she is struggling with something...no? I have also seen UK field trials where dogs run out of gas and end up plodding their way through the trial 30-40-50 mins without a find or flush. If the same dog was doing this trial after trial, is it not fair to ask the question why? Hunting, finding and flushing game to provide sport for the gun is a spaniels job.IMO

Edited December 10, 2011 by straightbarrel

[straightbarrel]

Could be, straight, but again don't be so literal. Running out of gas means slowing down near the end - not coming to a complete stop. And if you've never seen a US spaniel field trial - as you hadn't with a US retriever trial - might behoove you to understand why a dog would run out of gas or be perceived as such.

 

"Getting a performance out of her" might be running a trial on a 100-degree (F) day, might be running through waist-high cover on that 100-degree day, and might also mean, as I noted above, that the dog's run was extended longer than others because she didn't come up with a find.

 

Everything you "does-it-matter'd" about above, does indeed matter given those circumstances - even more so in retriever trials but just the same in spaniel trials. You might be interested to know that a number of yours who've become "ours" by immigration - trainers - happen to live and train in Texas, in the heat, so their spaniels are proofed against such situations and "test-driven" for encountering them in trials.

 

And spaniel trials in the US are judged pretty severely on "style," which means if Hup's dog's questing flags and others don't, she gets dropped. Because there's almost never any running in, they stop - and drop - on a dime on their flush, and except for honouring a bracemate (or failing to), there's really not a whole lot to differentiate the competitors.

 

It's a big country, straight - and unlike timbuktu or the moon, lot of different weather conditions at a given time, or time of year. Trainers here - pro trainers who train most US dogs for trials - "follow the weather" all year so they can get, pardon the pun, more mileage out of it in their training. They don't often run out of gas getting where they're going - and that goes for their dogs, too.

 

MG

 

The circumstances are the same for all the dogs that compete. It's the luck of the draw regarding certain things but swings and roundabouts.

 

Hup,

Good luck with D though, I hope everything works out.

Edited December 10, 2011 by straightbarrel

[cracker]

The circumstances are the same for all the dogs that compete. It's the luck of the draw regarding certain things but swings and roundabouts.

 

Again untrue in US trials, straight. Each brace of spaniels works new ground, theoretically at least - and certainly different than those that got a run immediately before them. You might also understand there may be as many 60 dogs in a stake, meaning 30 braces are run. That takes time - do you really think "circumstances" stay the same throughout the day until the last brace's done?

 

As untrue as your assertion is for US spaniel trials, it's even starker in contrast for retrievers. If I'm in a trial with 99 other dogs, do you really think when the first dog goes off at 8 a.m. it will be encountering the same circumstances - meteorologically speaking (wind, sun, cloud cover, perhaps rain)- as when I run dog No. 100 10-11 hours later? You might also understand that if I run dog No. 1, my dog's the "pacesetter" for knocking down cover but "gets an even break" with lower temperatures and scarcity of scent about so that it can rely on pure marking to come up with the three or four birds it must pick in succession. Capece?

 

You're good here

If the same dog was doing this trial after trial, is it not fair to ask the question why? Hunting, finding and flushing game to provide sport for the gun is a spaniels job.

 

except that "running out of gas" might apply differently to different spaniels. Some of them might even have a different sort of "supercharger" than just questing at speed - and they might also expand on what you call a "spaniel's job." This one did just that

 

 

this morning - provided something that the gun didn't require but that game does require if it's to flourish so spaniels can do their job as you described. No absolutes in gundogs - or trials - wouldn't you think by now, straight?

 

MG

Edited December 11, 2011 by cracker

[straightbarrel]

Again untrue in US trials, straight. Each brace of spaniels works new ground, theoretically at least - and certainly different than those that got a run immediately before them. You might also understand there may be as many 60 dogs in a stake, meaning 30 braces are run. That takes time - do you really think "circumstances" stay the same throughout the day until the last brace's done?As untrue as your assertion is for US spaniel trials, it's even starker in contrast for retrievers. If I'm in a trial with 99 other dogs, do you really think when the first dog goes off at 8 a.m. it will be encountering the same circumstances - meteorologically speaking (wind, sun, cloud cover, perhaps rain)- as when I run dog No. 100 10-11 hours later? You might also understand that if I run dog No. 1, my dog's the "pacesetter" for knocking down cover but "gets an even break" with lower temperatures and scarcity of scent about so that it can rely on pure marking to come up with the three or four birds it must pick in succession. Capece?

 

You're good here

 

 

except that "running out of gas" might apply differently to different spaniels. Some of them might even have a different sort of "supercharger" than just questing at speed - and they might also expand on what you call a "spaniel's job." This one did just that

 

 

this morning - provided something that the gun didn't require but that game does require if it's to flourish so spaniels can do their job as you described. No absolutes in gundogs - or trials - wouldn't you think by now, straight?MG

 

As to the first highlighted. I recognised this in my previous post and made reference to it by saying it is the luck of the draw and it is a case of swings and roundabouts, in other words, some days you will get the luck you need or the 'rub of the green'. All that said, the dogs are all in the same boat, they face the same circumstances, as a whole, throughout the trialing season.To be continuously unlucky is strange.

 

I have watched some US spaniel field trials, they are mediocre in comparison to anything else I have witnessed and of a much lower standard to that of our trials here.

 

As for the last part of your post, I fail to understand the relevance between a spaniel retreiving a fox and the running out of gas issue? If you are trying to suggest that somehow asking a spaniel to retreive a small fox for the benefit of a photo or whatever, prooves any point at all in relation to the posts made, you are very much mistaken. You have a habit of deviating from the original thread once the penny starts to drop, you seem to think that posting a picture of a dog doing something that is not normally required of it, backs up everything you have said previously.

 

Good luck with the mating Hup, I hope it all works out well.

Edited December 11, 2011 by straightbarrel

[Hup]

I think I may need to set the record straight. Crackered has it for the most part. Texas is not anywhere close to England, Ireland or Wales when it comes to weather. It is not uncommon for us to go from freezing rain and snow in the morning to 75~80 deg. in the afternoon. The joke that holds pretty true for Texas is ---If you don't like the weather ..Just wait!

And from what I can tell our trials are only mere shadows of what are run on your side of the pond. It is common practice for your imported dogs coming here to have to be all but re-trained. We use planted birds and run in braces. Our dogs pattern is MUCH larger than what yours are expected to run. The cover we run in is what you might refer to as jungle. The last trial I ran my girl in, the cover was so heavy It was nearly 10 feet high and too thick for me to walk thru. I actually had to send her through and then walk around to the other side. She had to cover her beat while I was blind as to what she was doing.

Over here your dogs would be referred to as boot polishers. You would consider our dogs nearly out of control.

Some big differences.

Now as to the running out of gas

I suppose when you have a dog down for a lengthy period and for what ever reason no birds are produced or there are missed birds. the dog is not usually given a break and recalled later. As I referred to it is just my bad luck that my bitch SOMETIMES runs out of gas. There have been times when all happens rather quickly and birds are quickly flushed, shot and retrieved and we move on.

[utectok]

Really interesting hup

[utectok]

Plenty in the uk would do well if nearly out of control dogs are required! I shot a driven day locally and someone lost their dog on drive one and only found it at then end of drive two after it had worked that drive backwards flushing all the game over the heads of the beaters !!!! Unbelievable. :o

Edited December 11, 2011 by utectok

[straightbarrel]

And from what I can tell our trials are only mere shadows of what are run on your side of the pond. It is common practice for your imported dogs coming here to have to be all but re-trained. We use planted birds and run in braces. You would consider our dogs nearly out of control.

Some big differences.

Now as to the running out of gas

As I referred to it is just my bad luck that my bitch SOMETIMES runs out of gas.

I can understand "sometimes" running out of 'gas' in the odd trial, I could not understand why you would mention in your first post that she "always" is down to long and "running out of gas". I would have though she would have the same opportunities as every other dog in the competition, especially so given the manufactured way trials and tests are run.

 

Good luck anyway.

[UKPoacher]

A lot of what has been said here is not common knowledge to many hunting dog owners. Scent is affected by wind, temperature and humidity and dogs running first thing in the cold morning air have a worse deal than those running later in the day - scent wise. Obviously if the temperature then goes into the high 80's later in the day, dogs then have double problems in there being less available scent and higher exhaustion rate.

 

Taking everything being as equal as a trial can be I'd opt for running mid-morning as by then the earth will have warmed up to a higher temperature than the air causing scent to rise and be more available on the wind. The worst time to run, excluding the US extreme heat scenario, is first thing after a cold night. Then the scent will be locked into the ground and not as readily available to air scenting dogs. In hot weather scent dries up - literally, and the dogs have to rehydrate the scent particles a process that can quickyl lead to 'fatigue'. The best scenting condtions are summer & autumn evenings just as the sun goes down. The air cools more rapidly than the earth causing convections. Scent rises to a certain level where the air then becomes too cold and flattens out. We've all seen chimneys with smoke or steam going straight up then flattening. This is what causes it. In these evenings scent is trapped in a narrow layer and is more available to the dogs. Even humans notice the smells in woodland or fields in these conditions so concentrated is the layer.

 

In the conditions Hup describes I'd question whether a spaniel is the right tool for the job. Maybe a steadier breed more prone to ground scenting would adapt to the extreme opposites in circumstances?

[straightbarrel]

A lot of what has been said here is not common knowledge to many hunting dog owners. Scent is affected by wind, temperature and humidity and dogs running first thing in the cold morning air have a worse deal than those running later in the day - scent wise.

 

In the conditions Hup describes I'd question whether a spaniel is the right tool for the job. Maybe a steadier breed more prone to ground scenting would adapt to the extreme opposites in circumstances?

 

I think you are missing the point a bit mate. The dogs are all spaniels and they all have the same circumstances throughout a trialing/testing season. Regardless of the time of day,air temps, air pressures, humidity, early morn runs late in the day runs.

 

A spaniel is the perfect dog for this type of work IMO.

[UKPoacher]

I think you are missing the point a bit mate. The dogs are all spaniels and they all have the same circumstances throughout a trialing/testing season. Regardless of the time of day,air temps, air pressures, humidity, early morn runs late in the day runs.

 

A spaniel is the perfect dog for this type of work IMO.

 

I know that the dogs have to cope with the luck of the draw, but we all have our opinions on what is the best dog for whatever. I've seen quite a few GWPs & GSPs work similar temperatures to what Hup describes in Cyprus and if you could combine their steadiness and conservation of energy with the ability to flush without command the dogs would not 'run out of gas' so easily on a long search. Spaniels have a tendency to run about like headless chickens and that is negative energy expenditure in a lot of cases.

 

If its a spaniel only trial then he's stuck with what he's got.

[cracker]

If its a spaniel only trial then he's stuck with what he's got.

 

Doggone it, straight - every thread you cling to like a snapping turtle with a crooked bite and somebody's got to come 'round and "straighten" you out.

 

Clive's got this one sussed, but it's even "onlier" than that - in the US only two breeds are eligible to compete in spaniel trials: springers and cockers.

 

The other seven breeds have "hunt tests" - but airedale terriers and now flatcoats and curlycoated retrievers have been made eligible to run spaniel (or renamed "flushing") tests. For the simple reason of the money-grubbing KC, and to try and prop up a faltering programme.

 

But being literal once again you also failed to see what a spaniel retrieving a fox had to do with spaniel trials. For some of them it might be their "trial" - them that cannae run the actual trials. It weren't retrieving Mr. Charlie (or Ms. Vixen) anyhow, it was offing him - then retrieving. Same as my Boykin did with another yesterday

 

 

 

- yes, 23 pounds of "rompin', stompin' hell" on four legs. So much so in fact that AKC has just put the Boykin (and their cousin the American Water Spaniel) into the frame for retriever hunt tests, which are a pale shadow of nothing and have their own OTT aura. And great fun to run. And Clive, the best dog to run them if it were or weren't retrievers-only or come-one, come-all would be the wachtelhund, Germany's national spaniel *and* national retrieving breed - and hog catcher and blood trailer. What a dog!

 

Hup, know this has gone a little circuitous and know Texas is a Texas-sized state, but have you been in touch with Dave "Strong" Jones or Martin Bell by any chance about training for trials?

 

MG

[UKPoacher]

Doggone it, straight - every thread you cling to like a snapping turtle with a crooked bite and somebody's got to come 'round and "straighten" you out.

 

Clive's got this one sussed, but it's even "onlier" than that - in the US only two breeds are eligible to compete in spaniel trials: springers and cockers.

 

The other seven breeds have "hunt tests" - but airedale terriers and now flatcoats and curlycoated retrievers have been made eligible to run spaniel (or renamed "flushing") tests. For the simple reason of the money-grubbing KC, and to try and prop up a faltering programme.

 

But being literal once again you also failed to see what a spaniel retrieving a fox had to do with spaniel trials. For some of them it might be their "trial" - them that cannae run the actual trials. It weren't retrieving Mr. Charlie (or Ms. Vixen) anyhow, it was offing him - then retrieving. Same as my Boykin did with another yesterday

 

 

 

- yes, 23 pounds of "rompin', stompin' hell" on four legs. So much so in fact that AKC has just put the Boykin (and their cousin the American Water Spaniel) into the frame for retriever hunt tests, which are a pale shadow of nothing and have their own OTT aura. And great fun to run. And Clive, the best dog to run them if it were or weren't retrievers-only or come-one, come-all would be the wachtelhund, Germany's national spaniel *and* national retrieving breed - and hog catcher and blood trailer. What a dog!

 

Hup, know this has gone a little circuitous and know Texas is a Texas-sized state, but have you been in touch with Dave "Strong" Jones or Martin Bell by any chance about training for trials?

 

MG

 

Err. Could someone translate into English please? :blink: