wildfowler.250 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Is there any way to improve a dogs marking? Or do they just pick it up at they go along? I chucked a dummy into thick scrub and the dog marked it fairly well but still went out 5 yards to the right of where it landed. She picked it up after using her nose a bit but a quick retrieve took a couple of mins. It's not really a massive issue but any tips for improvement are always appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 judging a dog on one retrieve is poor form, scent is a funny thing. When you send a dog remember give it time and give it practice let it learn the art over time. My own new pup is just learning the game but i do a lot in the dark with him generally the only help i give him after the run out is genrally a "there" when he is close and thats only if i can see him and have 100% marked the fall down. The fact is throw me the same retrieve and it will take me a darn sight longer to find it, indeed without a torch i would mostly fail at night The pup is 5 mnths or so and maybee gets 9-12 retrieves a day, but never more than about three a session. By 12mnths we will be getting somewere. so be patient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 judging a dog on one retrieve is poor form, scent is a funny thing. When you send a dog remember give it time and give it practice let it learn the art over time. My own new pup is just learning the game but i do a lot in the dark with him generally the only help i give him after the run out is genrally a "there" when he is close and thats only if i can see him and have 100% marked the fall down. The fact is throw me the same retrieve and it will take me a darn sight longer to find it, indeed without a torch i would mostly fail at night The pup is 5 mnths or so and maybee gets 9-12 retrieves a day, but never more than about three a session. By 12mnths we will be getting somewere. so be patient Cheers Kent, It wasn't based on one retrieve,(although I can easily see why you thought that). I also use there "there" signal when she is basically on the dummy. I'll just keep plugging at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Marking is a skill that some are better than others at, but it is still a skill you teach a dog. Build up the distance and a dogs confidence - use shortish cover at first and simple 40-50 yard single retrieves, adding a second over time, will teach the dog to "mark" and "memorise" that mark - a very easy skill to improve in any dog. If you want a more in depth explanation, let me know and I'll write something out for you when I get 20 minutes. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 That's great, thank you! I was thinking I should do longer range retrieves in light cover shorts in thicker cover till she improves. She's coming along quite nicely though. How many retrieves per day is recommended? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Depends on the dog, but never too many for the dog in question IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Depends on the dog, but never too many for the dog in question IMO. Thanks, I've been sticking to about 2-4 at a time. Although I often chuck one in the mix that I get myself and keep the dog sititng. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 What breed is it? How old is it? What level is it trained too? I've done a session with a Lab tonight (one I intend to trial next season), he is 13 months old and has done about 30 retrieves tonight, ranging from 100-150 yards, with splits, unseens and distractions - he would do ten times that if I let him. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'd say she is 10/11month old lab. She is steady, not shy of the gun and swims and retrieves well. I just really want a solid wildfowling dog,(as well as a bit of rough shooting but thats almost by the way!) so really I need good marking and the ablility to send her out a very long way. I have done enough that she knows left and right when I stop her,(althouh I am still going to work on this a bit more). And if I do the whole memory retrieves/go back she will do it. However I think that she hasn't actually differentiated between "back" and fetch. ie she knows there is one dummy and if I said 'go back' along a line, she will go and get it. But if I stopped her on a blind retrieve the word hasnt fully registered yet. Any tips? or just keep working at longer memory retrieves and using the word 'back'? Hope that makes sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Wildfowling dogs must use there own head and be competant in the dark were they cannot be seen let alone directed spot on the spot so train in the dark. i am doing the same presently and i have to say i value persistance and the ability to work things out unaided a lot more than presice distance handling (though i will still teach it) There are loads of ways to achieve your goal, if you want staight line "get backs" try running back along a fence line to a previously hidden (you might need to phyically walk the dog back the first time or two) Dummies in a line to be picked, dummiies thown directly over dogs head while sat facing you, in the latter case a colledge student dog looks at you and the fowlers dog spins to see the drop " get out" as in range further out is maybee of more use when looking for distant wingtipped goose etc. as you want the dog to run out and range not run out blindly to your direction Decide what you actually want and train for it is what i am saying to some degree ignoor the books. A lot of the dog men who write the books have never sat out on the marsh on a moonflight and had to trust thier dog which bird needs picking first or had a duck diving in a trecherous and dangerous tidal flow and had to call the chase off. Sure the basics are the same but after that..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Wildfowling dogs must use there own head and be competant in the dark were they cannot be seen let alone directed spot on the spot so train in the dark. i am doing the same presently and i have to say i value persistance and the ability to work things out unaided a lot more than presice distance handling (though i will still teach it) There are loads of ways to achieve your goal, if you want staight line "get backs" try running back along a fence line to a previously hidden (you might need to phyically walk the dog back the first time or two) Dummies in a line to be picked, dummiies thown directly over dogs head while sat facing you, in the latter case a colledge student dog looks at you and the fowlers dog spins to see the drop " get out" as in range further out is maybee of more use when looking for distant wingtipped goose etc. as you want the dog to run out and range not run out blindly to your direction Decide what you actually want and train for it is what i am saying to some degree ignoor the books. A lot of the dog men who write the books have never sat out on the marsh on a moonflight and had to trust thier dog which bird needs picking first or had a duck diving in a trecherous and dangerous tidal flow and had to call the chase off. Sure the basics are the same but after that..... Kent, My best 'fowling companion ever was my FTCH lab bitch The biggest hindrance to a dogs marking ability is the handler!- too may people try and train a robot - let the dog get on with it, as Kent as said - yes it needs to be handled at some point, but if you keep sticking your oar in every 10 seconds it will stop the dogs natural drive. At that age, I would be doing 10/15 retrieves per session now (twice a day) one session would be on pure marking exercises if I felt my dog was lacking in this area. Another good way to teach and reinforce marking is using two dummies - put one out before you bring the dog out (car/home wherever) Sit the dog up about 50 yards from the hidden dummy (This will be a blind) - throw a seen retrieve at about 60 degrees to the hidden one - send the dog for the blind (Of course your dog needs to be doing blinds first!!) Once the blind has been picked, send the dog for the seen/marked retrieve - this is a good way to develop marking too, as well as control and blind work. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Kent, My best 'fowling companion ever was my FTCH lab bitch The biggest hindrance to a dogs marking ability is the handler!- too may people try and train a robot - let the dog get on with it, as Kent as said - yes it needs to be handled at some point, but if you keep sticking your oar in every 10 seconds it will stop the dogs natural drive. At that age, I would be doing 10/15 retrieves per session now (twice a day) one session would be on pure marking exercises if I felt my dog was lacking in this area. Another good way to teach and reinforce marking is using two dummies - put one out before you bring the dog out (car/home wherever) Sit the dog up about 50 yards from the hidden dummy (This will be a blind) - throw a seen retrieve at about 60 degrees to the hidden one - send the dog for the blind (Of course your dog needs to be doing blinds first!!) Once the blind has been picked, send the dog for the seen/marked retrieve - this is a good way to develop marking too, as well as control and blind work. Mike I am speaking out of my comfort ground as regards trials and a good dog is a good dog, but i do firmly believe if you took the best fowling dog in the country and it had never been trained with trials in mind it would quickly be put out and many (ok not all) top scoring retrievers in trials would be at a serious disadvantage proper wildfowling without having had specific training for the game. Note: not talking shooting ducks round a pit here. I do not think the fact that most fowlers dogs run in like lurchers and cannot be stopped and called back is a good thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I am speaking out of my comfort ground as regards trials and a good dog is a good dog, but i do firmly believe if you took the best fowling dog in the country and it had never been trained with trials in mind it would quickly be put out and many (ok not all) top scoring retrievers in trials would be at a serious disadvantage proper wildfowling without having had specific training for the game. Note: not talking shooting ducks round a pit here. I do not think the fact that most fowlers dogs run in like lurchers and cannot be stopped and called back is a good thing My 'fowling was at Bridgewater, Langstone, The Dee and Gower coast - not quite "pits" I would say that any FT standard Lab, would do the job on the 'shore without blinking an eye! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccles Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Totally agree with Mike Shot the Dovey estuary for years taking up to 4 dogs with me.All the dogs that iv'e had would sit until they where sent for the retrieves.The number of time iv'e been shooting there when other wildfowlers also shooting.And have heard the (come here you (bad words) :lol: Shot fired hit or miss dogs off followed by the shouting and spoiling the flight. :angry: A good dog trained is great one untrained pain in the backside. It has not got to be trained to trial standards but should sit and stay and be able to be handled to their retrieves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Thanks for all the replies guys! I've taken notes and will keep at it! I'll try the blinds and marking and I'll also do some retrieves in the dark. That wing tipped goose is exactly the thing I'm working for,(nightmare especially if the dog hasn't seen it come down!). Cheers again! Much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 My 'fowling was at Bridgewater, Langstone, The Dee and Gower coast - not quite "pits" I would say that any FT standard Lab, would do the job on the 'shore without blinking an eye! Mike Without specific training and experiance being gained for the job at hand i simply don't believe that. For the first thing the ratio of water and land rerieves are so much different and waiting in the dark for a few hours is not part of any trial- neither is staying in the hide in cold water while shooting the tide. I am sure there are rarely waves in the water test and they are sure as heck going to stuggle if they cannot predict current and use it to thier advantage rather than try and fight it In the words of a most repected cometitor in your field. " a FTCH champion has prooved itself to have a soft mouth, a good nose and will enter water" Ok it takes a bit more but thats what it prooves FT std? what the hecks that? one trialer i know told me / complained of one competitor who got a run with a dog that had never picked a real bird before (nobody had any knoledge of that till it messed with the bird and got put out). Do you mean winner? Mike, i wasnt suggesting i doubted you expeiance on a marsh - the only way to show that is to shoot together, were do you know on the Dee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 In the words of a most repected cometitor in your field. " a FTCH champion has prooved itself to have a soft mouth, a good nose and will enter water" Ok it takes a bit more but thats what it prooves FT std? what the hecks that? one trialer i know told me / complained of one competitor who got a run with a dog that had never picked a real bird before (nobody had any knoledge of that till it messed with the bird and got put out). I would say that any FT standard Lab, would do the job on the 'shore without blinking an eye! Might Mike have meant any American FT standard Lab? - which have proved a little more than just willingness to enter the water, as trials are won (or lost) in it - and which pick plenty (plenty) of "real birds." That being the case, I've said before white objects are a boon to any dog's marking ability, nothing better than white for getting a dog to focus (and retaining that focus - which is called memory). Usually, in training, the "white" is a dummy and if you're talking extreme distances for marking, you enhance the dog's ability to mark attaching a flag (streamer) to it. But that's only in excess of 300 yards. The marking the original poster's seeking help with is a piece of cake - albeit a prettier piece of cake for the dog by using white dummies in training. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have a dummy that's half black and white that I can use so I'll stick with that. How do you go about 300 yard retrieves? Thats a good throw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I have a dummy that's half black and white that I can use so I'll stick with that. How do you go about 300 yard retrieves? Thats a good throw! Get someone else involved I dont think such marking is needed for shooting the marshes (though it might be usefull for some picking up?) When a duck or goose has a leg down an experianced dog tends to know and watch it. Sometimes even the shooter dont see it actually fall just the skien or the part thats behind plane down and the rise as they follow it. Personally i should consentrate on sending your dog out a long way on command. Not knocking the method just the uses importance for you over other things, with which you can achieve similar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Black & white dummies are good for any conditions, wildfowler - I used them in the driving snow at the weekend.(Side note that N. Americans use orange dummies for blind retrieves because dogs don't "see" orange, but see an orange dummy as a variant of grey. The philosophy behind what colour dummies you use for blind retrieves is arcane, however.) As for those 300-yard throws, we enlist NFL quarterback Aaron Rodgers to play "bird boy" whenever possible - actually, we have training groups in which everybody takes a turn hiking out those 300 yards then making 15-20 yard throws for the working dog. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian g Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 i bought a 4 year old lab last year so this gone season was my first with him all he had ever seen was standing on a peg seeing phesants dropping in day light one of the first times out with him on the marsh i shot a duck sent him for it was a blind unfortunaly it was also a flapper so he got to it an it scared the **** out of him so after that i took him on a few duck flights on small ponds and let him watch the ducks come in and that was him some of the retrives were unbeliveable in that we didnt even see a few of the birds drop but he came back with a duck on more than one occasion i also spent 3weeks in orkney being lucky enough to have a mate who is a goose guide up there the dog wouldnt go near a goose at the start by the end of the 3 weeks he was hitting runners at full speed doing 200 plus yard retrives there and back somtimes 20 retrives a morning sometime i think its best to let the dog work it out for themselfs as long as they aint going to far wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 actually, we have training groups in which everybody takes a turn hiking out those 300 yards then making 15-20 yard throws for the working dog. MG You boys should club together and invest in a remote launcher! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Do have, WGD - including "12-shooters" http://www.bumperboy.com/tech_12shooter.php - but if I'm hiking out I'm also "training" myself (exercising). That's the hidden blessing of the "circus" retrieving circuit - keeps you active, fairly fit and (way) out and about to a ripe old age. The median age of one group I train with is almost 75 - and that includes my being the youngster by almost 20 years. Many of them also prefer to "travel" by ATV to their places afield; Kawasaki is the vehicle of choice. But when training alone or with one other handler to work on marking, "hoofing it" is the way to go - and it's not a bad thing for the working dog to sit at the line and "follow" you, with its eyes, all the way out. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Do have, WGD - including "12-shooters" http://www.bumperboy.com/tech_12shooter.php - but if I'm hiking out I'm also "training" myself (exercising). That's the hidden blessing of the "circus" retrieving circuit - keeps you active, fairly fit and (way) out and about to a ripe old age. The median age of one group I train with is almost 75 - and that includes my being the youngster by almost 20 years. Many of them also prefer to "travel" by ATV to their places afield; Kawasaki is the vehicle of choice. But when training alone or with one other handler to work on marking, "hoofing it" is the way to go - and it's not a bad thing for the working dog to sit at the line and "follow" you, with its eyes, all the way out. MG MG, we are talking about improving marking. I have found that the only way to improve marking is to have the dog beside me and either throw/launch a dummy or have a dummy thrown by someone unseen. I don't have a remote launcher but that would be another way. If I leave the dog sitting, walk say 200 yards and throw the dummy from there (whether it be behind me or to the left or right) the dog invariably takes the line I have walked to the position I threw the dummy from then deviates to where I have thrown the dummy. Similarly, if someone is standing a couple of hundred yards away the dog soon learns to run to the dummy thrower in the first instance then make for the dummy. How do you overcome that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I have found that the only way to improve marking is to have the dog beside me and either throw/launch a dummy or have a dummy thrown by someone unseen. ... If I leave the dog sitting, walk say 200 yards and throw the dummy from there (whether it be behind me or to the left or right) the dog invariably takes the line I have walked to the position I threw the dummy from then deviates to where I have thrown the dummy. Similarly, if someone is standing a couple of hundred yards away the dog soon learns to run to the dummy thrower in the first instance then make for the dummy. How do you overcome that? I've said before retrievers/retrieving gundogs "get the picture" - especially on multiple marks - and take a line to where the bird(s) fell rather than to whomever threw the bird. But since you lot value "gamefinding" so much, there should be nothing wrong with a dog running to the position where the thrower stood then hunting or working its way to where the dummy has fallen. It's not indicative of a dog being a great marker, in fact it reveals a dog without confidence in its marking ability at distance, but generally the confidence in "getting the picture" grows with each long mark the dog sees...and picks. Especially on long single marked retrieves, which are the mainstay of North American training. Here you go, WGD - from the Canadian horse's mouth: http://www.retrieversonline.com/standalone.htm I'll also say that having a live body instead of a launcher in the field is far preferable essentially for what you've conversely hinted at - the person can "help" the dog to the bird if needed, whereas if the dog blows past a launcher (which may be hidden) it might keep going to the next shire. And you do not want to handle on marks if you can possibly help it. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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