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Improving marking?


wildfowler.250
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I've said before retrievers/retrieving gundogs "get the picture" - especially on multiple marks - and take a line to where the bird(s) fell rather than to whomever threw the bird.

 

But since you lot value "gamefinding" so much, there should be nothing wrong with a dog running to the position where the thrower stood then hunting or working its way to where the dummy has fallen. It's not indicative of a dog being a great marker, in fact it reveals a dog without confidence in its marking ability at distance, but generally the confidence in "getting the picture" grows with each long mark the dog sees...and picks. Especially on long single marked retrieves, which are the mainstay of North American training. Here you go, WGD - from the Canadian horse's mouth: http://www.retrieversonline.com/standalone.htm

 

I'll also say that having a live body instead of a launcher in the field is far preferable essentially for what you've conversely hinted at - the person can "help" the dog to the bird if needed, whereas if the dog blows past a launcher (which may be hidden) it might keep going to the next shire. And you do not want to handle on marks if you can possibly help it.

 

MG

 

MG - I can't agree with much of that to be honest. A mark is a mark, there are no helpers to the mark, a dummy thrower standing within twenty yards of a "mark" becomes a crutch for the dog and does not represent any game shooting or picking up situation.

 

IMO a marked retrieve is only a marked retrieve if the dog can see the fall and continue to see the fall site as it makes its way there. If the dog's horizon comes into play and it loses sight of the fall site, then it becomes more complex. I would tend to leave the dog to get on with it but if it deviates then it has to be directed, there is not value to anyone in a dog expending retrieving energy hunting an area where you know there is nothing.

 

The link you posted (I will confess to having scanned it and not read it in detail) makes reference to a dog being left on the drop and the handler making their way out to throw a mark and send the dog remotely; the presence of the handler is supposed to stop the dog over-running... I'm not surprised! Or you could just train a "hunt" command, and build distance so the dog doesn't look for, or need, a visual prompt.

 

Not having a go MG, genuinely interested in the variation in training methods and their relative merits. :good:

Edited by WGD
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I had a Cocker I thought was blind :rolleyes: ..just didn't have the natural ability of the Lab ...I have access to remote launchers and started to over use it whilst at gamefairs..nice simple long retrieves with black and white streamer dummies , then moved up to red torpedoes...Made a marked ( :lol: ) difference as the dog started to look up and out up at last , plus there was no real point of reference like a dummy thrower if you sit the dog in different locations. That said they are expensive bits of kit....try a small Dokken (£28) or a Tutor Bird dummy (£14 )..you can get a good 50 yard throw from one of them..far further than anything canvas..and they dont take on water if your marsh training ..I know I train my dogs on Dee marsh that's why the smell like **** most of the time .

 

http://www.litelauncher.co.uk/tutor-bird-1-c.asp

Edited by PWD
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MG - I can't agree with much of that to be honest. A mark is a mark, there are no helpers to the mark, a dummy thrower standing within twenty yards of a "mark" becomes a crutch for the dog and does not represent any game shooting or picking up situation.

 

IMO a marked retrieve is only a marked retrieve if the dog can see the fall and continue to see the fall site as it makes its way there. If the dog's horizon comes into play and it loses sight of the fall site, then it becomes more complex. I would tend to leave the dog to get on with it but if it deviates then it has to be directed, there is not value to anyone in a dog expending retrieving energy hunting an area where you know there is nothing.

 

The link you posted (I will confess to having scanned it and not read it in detail) makes reference to a dog being left on the drop and the handler making their way out to throw a mark and send the dog remotely; the presence of the handler is supposed to stop the dog over-running... I'm not surprised! Or you could just train a "hunt" command, and build distance so the dog doesn't look for, or need, a visual prompt.

 

Can't disagree with much of that, WGD - with the exception that training for multiple marks and the memory for picking them may require help (but not a crutch) for a quick retrieve on the first, second (and sometimes third) bird. "Burning memory" by hunting ain't a good thing, trust me. You've alluded to it obliquely:

there is not value to anyone in a dog expending retrieving energy hunting an area where you know there is nothing.

Thus a helper but not a crutch - because as I say one refrains from handling on a mark if at all possible. Handling on a mark erodes a dog's confidence and induces popping - though the difference between training methodologies is we rue popping as a bad thing for a retriever while (some of) you relish it for giving you a compliant dog that's willing to be handled. That may make the dog almost dependent on you for getting to a mark.

 

The handling we relish is for precision ("stopping on a dime" when the whistle's blown) and at a great distance - again, this for the circus circuit, if you will, of N. American field trials. In reality - actual wildfowling - most of the birds fall within 20-30 yards of the hide and it's seldom that a gundog will require any handling whatsoever for picking them. Especially when they splash in the water on the way down - that's a mnemonic right there as good as it gets for any dog with desire on where to go and get the bird.

 

MG

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My birds dont mostly fall within 20-30 yds of the hide! especially not the geese are shot traveling ,setting thier wings they can go a long way and forwards motion can carry a stone dead in the air one a fair old way tumbling. The only time they do fall real close that is when they are shot with thier paddles down just over the deeks! Getting a wildfowling dog out a long way as required is therefore essential. Mark Greenhalsh filmed an execlent example for BASC called the long retrieve that illustates the point well

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A mark is a mark, there are no helpers to the mark, a dummy thrower standing within twenty yards of a "mark" becomes a crutch for the dog and does not represent any game shooting or picking up situation.

 

IMO a marked retrieve is only a marked retrieve if the dog can see the fall and continue to see the fall site as it makes its way there. If the dog's horizon comes into play and it loses sight of the fall site, then it becomes more complex. I would tend to leave the dog to get on with it but if it deviates then it has to be directed, there is not value to anyone in a dog expending retrieving energy hunting an area where you know there is nothing.

 

...You could just train a "hunt" command, and build distance so the dog doesn't look for, or need, a visual prompt.

 

Not having a go MG, genuinely interested in the variation in training methods and their relative merits. :good:

 

OK, WGD, here's your golden opportunity to help out a cousin, Antipodean, a whinger (but not a winger) - whichever s/he may be, help needed.

 

Kent may also want to pitch in, as all gundogs are allowed to run Aussie retriever trials (so, to bring this back an earlier comment, what's a "field trial standard Lab?").

 

MG

Edited by cracker
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OK, WGD, here's your golden opportunity to help out a cousin, Antipodean, a whinger (but not a winger) - whichever s/he may be, help needed.

 

Kent may also want to pitch in, as all gundogs are allowed to run Aussie retriever trials (so, to bring this back an earlier comment, what's a "field trial standard Lab?").

 

MG

 

I think my point was lost here FT std lab is meaningless, If you dog gets booted out in the first 50 ft for being wild and out of control it has still gained entry hence "FT std" what we are saying is KC reg. Another extreame a FTW could have been droped at previous trial or trials for serious fault prior to winning yet on that winning day there was no Hare to chase or similar

 

You know i would have great support for "any breed" trials, were entry was gained by merit alone.

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OK, WGD, here's your golden opportunity to help out a cousin, Antipodean, a whinger (but not a winger) - whichever s/he may be, help needed.

 

Kent may also want to pitch in, as all gundogs are allowed to run Aussie retriever trials (so, to bring this back an earlier comment, what's a "field trial standard Lab?").

 

MG

 

Cheers MG, I've been away for the weekend so not sure of the timings of your post compared to the first response on the other forum. But my answer would have been the same, put multiple dummies out. Make SURE the dog succeeds when you hit the hunt whistle. That said, the hunt whistle is something I badly need to work on :blush: in lieu of shouting "THERE" :lol:

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