Alpha Mule Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 When I was in th eforces a few hundred years ago, firing a 7.62 SLR and Gimpy, I was told one of those rounds would go through 3ft of living oak and still kill you on the far side. Don't hide behind a brick wall either, as they go through them too. Granite headstones work well though. Trees are pants as backstops - even big ones (caliber dependant)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 It depends. If I was in a perfectly flat field and could see half a mile then yes I'd say the trajectory drop of the bullet was adequate. If there was a house 400m away then no! Each situation is different and if it feels wrong then don't pull the trigger. A nice rising bank of soft earth is ideal but not always possible. Have a play with a ballistics programme - Hawke BRC is free and lets you play. Nope forget trajectory drop taking care of backstops on flat fields. Big mistake! the round still carries a lot of energy and can and will skim across the ground, maybee deviating at alarming angles houses 400 m away is nothing depending on calibre think in terms of maximum range . Skimming bullets are pretty much like skimming stones on a lake exept with substantially more power and remember how they might curve and twist. 1/2 mile forget it! i suggest you re-asess your risk in this instance elivate your shooting posision or forget it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm not short of hills, talking hypothetically! CF bullets should break up as soon as thy hit anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm not short of hills, talking hypothetically! CF bullets should break up as soon as thy hit anything. Only if they are designed to be frangiable... a softnose bullet won't break up, they are designed specifically not to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm not short of hills, talking hypothetically! CF bullets should break up as soon as thy hit anything. Hypothetically you mean hope? sorry think about that a while. I have seen a so called safe shot exit a deer at a wacky unpredicable angle miss the intended embankment behind as a result and make a long visible trail across a field of wet grass at dawn that would make any shooters spine run cold. rely on a skim to break up the bullet? no thanks, if you think C/f bullets break up so easy go and shoot a steel rsj at 100yds with a varmint bullet my friend - you will fast rethink that statement! As we all know lead is softer than steel :o - err try first it before you speak more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 When I was in th eforces a few hundred years ago, firing a 7.62 SLR and Gimpy, I was told one of those rounds would go through 3ft of living oak and still kill you on the far side. Don't hide behind a brick wall either, as they go through them too. Granite headstones work well though. Trees are pants as backstops - even big ones (caliber dependant)! Well I've got several trees which prove this wrong. They've had hundreds of rounds and don't have a hole through them, used as target holders for zeroing in front of large embankment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 In fairness that stump looks fairly rotten and it is more or less point blank, and an FMJ(?) but as we know you should never take anything for granted. If in doubt - don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Aint this thread getting a bit scarey? it seems a few need to do some serious re-assesment. I have just become a supporter of comulasary training Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 How often do you go stalking and find a 12 foot earth bank surrounding your intended quarry from all sides? Not likely! I haven't seen the video, but assuming the stalker knows the lie of the land, and footpaths etc - I don't see too much of a problem with shooting into woodland off sticks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) How often do you go stalking and find a 12 foot earth bank surrounding your intended quarry from all sides? Not likely! I haven't seen the video, but assuming the stalker knows the lie of the land, and footpaths etc - I don't see too much of a problem with shooting into woodland off sticks. As I wasn't there I am not qualified to comment or pass judgement on this BUT.... the whole point of not shooting into woodland or dense cover is that you CANNOT be sure who or what is hiding in there no matter how well you know the land... If you cannot see where the bullet is likely to land then how can it conceivably be a safe shot? The excuse that the dog walker was trespassing as you took the shot and killed them will not stand up in court, the burden of responsibility is ALWAyS on the one pulling the trigger. Edited February 14, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 How often do you go stalking and find a 12 foot earth bank surrounding your intended quarry from all sides? Not likely! I haven't seen the video, but assuming the stalker knows the lie of the land, and footpaths etc - I don't see too much of a problem with shooting into woodland off sticks. I nearly fell off the chair when i read this, i trust its just badly worded- please tell me it is? and you not using the woodland as a general backstop? Lets be fair woodland can hide all sorts of danger and they aint all visible, for instance did you ever stray onto private land making dens and such as a kid? I sure did as did most of my mates A shot off sticks at a deer on relitively level ground can be safe (depending on other factors) as long as you can fit three fingers above its back without blocking out all the ground from vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 How does this differ to woodland stalking Muntjac and the like? Not looking for an argument, but I just don't believe the "perfect backstop" ever exists under field conditions, unless you haul a previously shot deer onto a rifle range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have a block of Oak in my workshop it is about 12 inch square I use it for fireing bullets into to test load pressures,the bullet doesnt pass through and that from basically point blank,I also have a large chuck of Cherry I do the same with, used all manner of calibers on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm not short of hills, talking hypothetically! CF bullets should break up as soon as thy hit anything. Have you considered that a bullet may pass through the animal you shoot at, exit with the bullet intact but a low velocity that would be prone to ricochet very easily on mildly sloping ground? If it loses enough power it could act like a .22 RF and bounce of anything and be lethal, don't guarantee they'll break up. Aint this thread getting a bit scarey? it seems a few need to do some serious re-assesment. I have just become a supporter of comulasary training I agree it's very concerning, unless some of these people are very bad at expressing themselves in writing then it doesn't sound like they are fit to hold a FAC. The thought of bullets whizzing thorough the countryside randomly is a bit alarming. How often do you go stalking and find a 12 foot earth bank surrounding your intended quarry from all sides? Not likely! I haven't seen the video, but assuming the stalker knows the lie of the land, and footpaths etc - I don't see too much of a problem with shooting into woodland off sticks. Regardless of knowing that there are no footpaths in the line of fire, just because it's private does not mean there will be nobody there. It's idiotic to shoot thinking that there shouldn't be anyone there, it rather sounds like you're happy to risk killing a kid etc who's looking for his lost dog etc because they shouldn't be there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Best not go walking in the woods in Herts then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 A shot off sticks at a deer on relitively level ground can be safe (depending on other factors) as long as you can fit three fingers above its back without blocking out all the ground from vision. I like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Best not go walking in the woods in Herts then Heck yes, i seriously hope this guys winding us up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have a block of Oak in my workshop it is about 12 inch square I use it for fireing bullets into to test load pressures,the bullet doesnt pass through and that from basically point blank,I also have a large chuck of Cherry I do the same with, used all manner of calibers on it You might like to hear this story then, A good few years back a guy walks into the gun shop with a 22-250 in nice condition with scope. Placing it on the counter he says the the dealer "get rid of that its now yours". Turns out it formerly belonged to his son. what had happened was he had a big old tree stump he used as a backstop on the farm. One day a bullet found its way clean through after all it was getting pretty mashed over time- (i didn't see the stump i was later informed), but nobody could say for sure. Hit his sisters horse inside the stable after passing through the stable wall- clean behind the lughole! Can i say it was a lot thicker than 12" Got away with it thus far, fine- one day you wont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Herts woodland dog walk... Cancelled! I have to say I was told that if you can see ground above the targets back you are ok as it will most likely hit that if it passes through - Riccochets are an issue but in reality you can never tell where they will go. Oak should stop a bullet at a decent thickness as it has extremely tight fibres, but will depend on a number of variables. We use Oak as a barrier for HP testing and it is rated up to 30,000psi when lining a steel wall and that replaced Bullet proof glass! (see picture) Regards, Gixer Edited February 14, 2012 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Herts woodland dog walk... Cancelled! I have to say I was told that if you can see ground above the targets back you are ok as it will most likely hit that if it passes through - Riccochets are an issue but in reality you can never tell where they will go. Oak should stop a bullet at a decent thickness as it has extremely tight fibres, but will depend on a number of variables. We use Oak as a barrier for HP testing and it is rated up to 30,000psi when lining a steel wall and that replaced Bullet proof glass! (see picture) Regards, Gixer OOOooo does anything ever 'let go' Gixer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 OOOooo does anything ever 'let go' Gixer? we once had someone ignore a procedure and launch a 40kg lump of steel 50 ft with a fair old bang....and I have to be honest and say I once had a piece of equipment come apart with 5k of N2 pressure and blow itself across a workshop...new trousers required for me and the 6 or 7 people in training i had with me....my response on "and that's precisely how it shouldn't be done" didn't go down well.... :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 we once had someone ignore a procedure and launch a 40kg lump of steel 50 ft with a fair old bang....and I have to be honest and say I once had a piece of equipment come apart with 5k of N2 pressure and blow itself across a workshop...new trousers required for me and the 6 or 7 people in training i had with me....my response on "and that's precisely how it shouldn't be done" didn't go down well.... :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 Backstops are interesting as here you'd hardly ever take a shot if you waited for the perfect backstop. Only the person who pulled the trigger and YDS know the answer, its all about measuring the risk factors before you take the shot. Shooting into random woodland may seem risky but if you know the ground its not necessarily so. Banks can be hidden in the edge the fact its 4am on a private estate and 5miles from the nearest house can all have a bearing. I've shot a fair bit with the liability member who is scaring kent from visiting herts which is probably a good thnng a nd I can't ever remember an iffy shot. If anything us herts boys are probably safer than most as we are very used to the dog walker factor and its hard to be very far from houses here.t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted February 14, 2012 Report Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Backstops are interesting as here you'd hardly ever take a shot if you waited for the perfect backstop. Only the person who pulled the trigger and YDS know the answer, its all about measuring the risk factors before you take the shot. Shooting into random woodland may seem risky but if you know the ground its not necessarily so. Banks can be hidden in the edge the fact its 4am on a private estate and 5miles from the nearest house can all have a bearing. I've shot a fair bit with the liability member who is scaring kent from visiting herts which is probably a good thnng a nd I can't ever remember an iffy shot. If anything us herts boys are probably safer than most as we are very used to the dog walker factor and its hard to be very far from houses here.t .........the fact there are a lot of felchers in herts?? Edited February 14, 2012 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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