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Knock down


red_stag88
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Hi

 

I'm back from the land of the free, where an all you can eat meal is £2.99, where your ammo comes on the shelf, where you are allowed to buy a twin drum machine pistol aslong as you are not a felon. In one shop (aptly named Gunland) there was a Browning .50 cal on the counter and a Norma .300 magnum (plus 6 rounds) proped up by it. You can buy a .,309 muzzelloader in a plastic package like a four yearolds plastic cap gun.

 

Odd,

 

On a different matter all together, I bought a magazine called outdoor life in the US on tthe way home. One articul was about knockdown effect of rifles on Larger game. For those of you who donw know, when you heart shoot a deer 4/5 times it will stumble on for a while, or erattically pronk off before collapsing. The other time it will beknoked off its feet and fall instantly (akin to a spine or head shot) but remember this is in the heart.

 

There may be an answer to this question of why that has puzzeled people for a while. A mass culling was being put iinto action by vets in africa, the animals were all heart shot and dissected by vets. The buffalo that fell instantly to there feet had a lot of blood around the brain due to burst blood vessels. This was because as the bullet stuch the heat it was on the beat, drastically increasing blood pressure casusing the animal to have an immidiate and fatal stroke.

 

Is this the answer, it is a topic with many conflicting views, this is only one, do you have any ideas to the answer?

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Red Stagg

 

If you shoot a deer in the heart, it is undoubtably dead so why does it run?

 

There are a number of factors that can influence this activity but I will keep to the basics as this area does overlap with balistics, energy of the bullet etc etc.

 

In very simple terms, if the deer knows of your presence, eg seen you, heard you or whiffed you it will stamp one of its front feet this does two things firstly, it floods the system with adrenaline and second warns others nearby of danger. You then slot your deer and it will then run, usually about fifty or so yards until the body runs out of oxygen and it falls over. If your deer has no knowledge of your presence and you take a heart shot it will usually just drop to shot as the adrenaline rush is a defensive mechanism in the same vain as flight or fight mode in humans and wont be present if he does not suspect any danger is present.

 

Hope this helps

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it sounds logical(not that i know nowt bout this).it doesn't need many of the bodys systems when its running away and so they just shut down, giving it more life to run on i suppose cos its not using oxygen for other parts of the body.

This probably has nothing to do with this but when i've shot rabbits that haven't a clue i'm there they generally just drop dead but if they have some idea and they are standing up or whatever they sometimes will run for a bit then drop dead.(i know this can be just the nerves inits body doin this though and its not exactly a big animal)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I don’t know a lot about deer but I brought a video recently called prepare you hunting expedition as well as Canada the fascinating north. Anyway the first video explains why some big game animals run on. It doesn’t say a lot, but it says on animals like the moose were the spine runs near to were you want to put the shot if the bullet troches the spine the animal is stunned and drops on the spot.

 

If this is the case though why do animals taken close range in the neck drop almost instantly?

Every deer I have seen my uncle take drops instantly to a neck shot.

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Of all the deer I've heart shot (60+) only two have run. A Muntjac doe which ran 35 yards approx and a yearling Roe buck which ran 45 yards approx.

 

I watched the Muntjac doe for a while, then tried to call her closer using a buttolo deer call. Alarmed by the call she just froze not moving a muscle. As she was standing prefect broadside I shot her with a well placed round at 80 yards, from a .243, totally demolishing the heart.

 

As for the Roe buck, He had no idea I was there, and yet he ran. WHY?

He was shot at a range of about 20 yards. Adrenaline may not have been a factor here.

 

Whilst on my Level 1 DMQ (Deer Qualification) A vet told us during the gralloch phase that the spleen was also a blood reserve. When the beast is shot, the body goes into shock. This oxygen rich blood reserve is then released into the body thus feeding the brain and muscles etc. On inspection of a dead beast you will always find the spleen flatten and withered looking.

 

Hope this helps...

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Like all things Elma, nothing is conclusive in this world, apart from I guess, death.

 

I too have shot many deer and have witnessed similar experiences to you, the only thing I could put it down to was either sight or smell of trouble ahead for the deer which has been corroborated by deer stalkers eminently more qualified than I on the topic.

 

If we now consider neck shots, this type of shot is completely different in its execution than that of the heartshot. through the neck runs the spinal cord which (for the want of a different phrase) is the main route for the nervous system to co-ordinate and run the body. Essentially it is no different to yours or any other animals. So if you shot through it, you sever it and the brain cannot give instruction to any part of the body so it cant move and thus everything just stops, similar to a power cut.

 

Another way of describing it is to consider humans who have damage to their spines, if it is damaged at the neck, the whole body is paralysed, if it is damaged below the shoulders he/she cannot use her legs and so on, so if you shoot through the neck you cut the spinal cord.

 

Hope this this helps

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As from a stalkers point of view. I will always take a neck shot when offered. As Col Pol states the beast will drop on the spot if done correctly. Thus saving following up through scrub. Also when you take the deer to the game dealer he will give you top dollar for the carcass.

 

Col Pol. Have you found when taking neck shots you may have to take a second shot to dispatch the animal, as the eyes still twitch when you approach the animal.

I've had to do this on a number of occassions. :lol:

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Im alot clearer on this now thanks to this topic.

Its nice to know how much you all know about the animal you are hunting and the amount or respect you have for it.

Im going deer stalking for work experience in a months time and I have to say Im looking forward to it.

Also I have noticed that when animals are heart shot the jump forward I dont know much as this topic its new to me but I just thought I would add that. :lol::lol:

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BigDave15

 

Good luck on your work experience. You are already learning. Watching for reactions to the shot. A lot can be learnt by watching and listening. As you mention the animal jumps forward kicking sharply with rear legs. The follow up would indicate plenty of bright red blood and chest hair (pins) etc. If it were a gut shot then a plop sound will be heard and the animal will hunch its back, then walk/trot into cover. Remember give it at least 30 mins before trying to follow up the animal. As this allows the animal to cease up. Any quicker than that and the animal may carry on walking further into cover.

 

:lol:

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I must say most of what I have learnt is form this Forum! Still I brought a few books for my birthday and Im going to read up a bit more. I want to get in to deer managment full time so iv got a lot of learning to do!

Do any of you have dogs for deer just for pointing them out or maybe for tracking just incase? Thanks Again. :lol:

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At the moment I'm training my labrador to find deer once they have been shot. My lab. is 8 years old and I am now giving him an easier life in his twilight years. I also have a 7 year old border terrier who is mustard at finding deer. The only problem is that when he finds them, he bites into the rump of the deer, thus spoiling the meat.

 

As mentioned before, I've only had two deer run from a shot. I leave the dogs in the car, and once I've shot a deer, and know the location of the deer myself. I allow the dog to work the ground until he finds it. Then I praise him for his find. A problem that I have encountered is that neither dog will speak once they've found the animal.

 

A friend of mine uses a Hungarian Viszla. Once again this dog is only to find shot animals and not to hunt/point them out.

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i use my lab for tracking deer he has found every deer he has been sent after the furthest he has tracked one is about 300yrds he will also keep deer at bay if they are still alive but unfoutunatly he has started retreving roe deer if they are light enough which couses damage to the carcass.

 

my friend uses a GWP and it is a great dog for deer if i was going to have a dog just for deer i would have one this dog has also helped add countlass deer to the bag by pointing them .

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry Elma this is a bit of a late reply,

 

There could be two reasons why the eye twitches following a neck shot:

 

Firstly: I am assuming you walk stright up to your deer when shot? What basically happens as you know is this; when the spinal cord is servered completely the brain has no method of sending messages to the vital organs to perform. Therefore one by one, albeit very quickly, that quickly it is almost instantanieous, the vital organs cease functioning and the beast is declared dead.

 

The eye twitch could be the electical impulses surging from brain activity as the brain will cease functioning following oxygen depravation which could take a few seconds to take place after the sever has happened. The beast is already dead, its a bit like the chickens neck syndrome.

 

The other is possibly shot placement, with neck shots you are effectively aiming at a very small target which requires highly experienced and skilled attributes to achieve a level of consistancy worthy of taking shots of this nature. Please do not think I am criticising you Elma I am not. So if you damage the cord sufficiently to render the animal dead some electrical impulses could still get thro to the muscles surrounding the eye hence the twitch for a few seconds.

 

I personally stalk wild deer and do not think myself competent yet to consistantly take neck shots especially broadside, my stalking buddies think I am, but for me its a personal thing, I need to know the exact range to ensure correct bullet placement and a clean kill. Being on the portly side of medium, I am not built for tracking a wounded beast for potentially miles :D so unless the beast is either square on at me or walking directly away from me, I usually opt for the engine room everytime.

 

Hope this helps

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Columbus Polumbus

 

Like you I will only take neck shots when I know I will place the bullet exactly into the spot that I'm aiming at, usually at close range. This type of shot is also usually taken from a highseat or with the aid of sticks, when the deer is walking away from me. This way I know I can aim at neck certain in the knowledge that I will server the spinal cord.

 

Up to now, all deer that I've neck shot have dropped to shot. However on the occasions I’ve taken side neck shots. I've noticed that the shot inflicts a server muscle wound so much that you can see the neck vertebrae. It is on these occasions that the eyes may twitch. After taking the shot I usually wait a minute or two before advancing towards the deer. This way I can ascertain that the deer is truly dead, and should it get to its feet then I’m there to give it a second bullet.

 

BigDave15

 

What is also worth a mention is that you should always approach the deer from the rear. The reason behind this is that the deer may just summon up some extra adrenaline and bolt for cover. You can assess the deer on your approach. Once at the deer, if you have sticks then touch the eyeball. If the deer blinks then dispatch the deer immediately. Either with a second shot, or with a knife. If you decide to shoot the deer make sure that you shoot into soft earth and not onto stones that may ricochet.

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When you look at the wound damage Elma, can you see if the spinal cord is completely severed?

 

I will ask some of my professional stalking buddies for their opinion on why it happens and hopefully get back to you.

 

A word of apology Elma, I have re-read my msg and it could be read as me lecturing etc please accept my apologies if this was the case, it was not my intention to either lecture or indeed to upset anyone. Brevity is not my strong point, I wanted to write chapter an verse on it to try and help.

 

Big Dave15

 

I support Elma's advice and would only add, if you planning to use a knife please be careful especially with stags with bloody great antlers. To use a knife you have to be "Up front and personal" with it and if still alive, can inflict some serious wounds with those antlers.

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Thanks you Guys. Iv seen one deer killed with a knife it was a road accident A big fallow doe was laid up in the woods and there was a big smash up I was with my mates dad at the time. The deer was laid up in the woods a woman at the scene told us as my mate’s dad got out of the car. He walked over to the deer after he had talked to the woman telling her what he was going to do. I didn’t know whether to watch or not but I did. The worst part was the animal had been smacked broadside on and some of its ribs had stuck through its skin.

It didn’t run struggle proberly because it had lost quite a bit of blood. He held its head and did something with the knife, its head just slumped and it was all over. It was the kindest thing he could do, as he didn’t have his rifle with him. I was shocked to see how quick it was I guess how ever big an animal is if you know what your doing you can kill it quickly. :D

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I know someone who shoots road accident deer, he got a call at about 3am, packed up his gun and drove to the scene. When he got there there was a police car, a written off estate car and a nice stag. He speakes to the police man and goes over to his car and gets the gun out, to which one police man said "oh my god, he's got a gun" and fainted.

 

How dumb can you get :D

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Talking of RTA's Road Traffic Accident's

 

Even if the deer is not physically injured in an accident, the deer may still die of stress. This is called MYOPATHY. Roe deer are very prone to this. They may walk off and die under a bush somewhere. I have never come across this condition myself, I've mearly read about this condition. If I'm called out by the police (usually MoD Police) the animal will be known to be in a poor state of health. Usually when I perform the gralloch there will be evidence of trauma. I imagine with myopathy there will be very little blood or tissue damage?

 

Every time a deer is culled I have to send the MoD a Cull card with information pertaining to that animal.

 

 

MOD DEER MANAGEMENT – CULL CARD (MALE) (Revised Mar 2000)

 

1 Stalker: Grade:

 

2 Assisted by: Grade:

 

3 Cull Serial:

 

4 Management Area:

 

5 Date: 5A Time:

 

6 Grid Reference: ( 6 Figures ) Sht.174

 

7 Habitat: DECIDUOUS

 

8 Plantation Name:

 

9 Species: Roe / REd / Sika / Fallow / Muntjac / CWD **

 

11 Age: (Yrs / Mths) ____

 

12 Grouping: Alone/In Company of (Age and sex of companions):

 

13 Activity: Feeding (Static) / Feeding (on move) / Travelling/Fighting / Lying / Ruminating

 

14 Manner of death: Shot / RTA / Poached / Found Dead **

 

15 Range of Shot: (Metres)

 

16 Calibre: 16A Bullet Weight: (In Grains)

 

17 Firers Position: Standing / SItting / Kneeling / Prone / Highseat **

17a Support:

 

18 Wound Area:

 

19 Animals Reaction to Shot:

 

20 Toothwear: % (Smooth 100%)

 

21 Premolar III: 2 Crown / 3 Crown ** (Muntjac Only)

 

22 Canine Length (Muntjac only) cms

 

23 Coat Change: % Summer % winter

 

24 Weight: (Head & Legs on) Lbs

 

25 Antler Shape: Deformed / Wide / Normal / NArrow*

 

26 Antler Weight: Heavy / Normal / Light **

 

27 Pearling: Heavy / Normal / Smooth / Velvet**

 

28 Left Antler: 28A Points:

 

29 Right Antler: ___________ 29A Points: ________

 

30 Kidney Fat: % (Volume )

 

31 Ticks: Nil / Light / Moderate / Heavy ** Date: 10/06/02

 

32 Lice: Nil / Light / Moderate / Heavy **

 

33 Keds: Nil / Light / Moderate / Heavy **

 

34 Patches Seen on lungs?: Yes / No **

 

35 Worms Seen?: Yes / No **

 

36 Diseased Liver?: Yes / No **

 

37 Diseased Kidney?: Yes / No **

 

38 Flukes Seen?: Yes / No **

 

39 Other Growthes / Tumours Yes / No **

 

40 Stomach Contents: Twiggs/Woody Browse/Leaves/Shoots/Heather/Grass/Herbs/Crops** (Other details)

 

44 Did you Skin / Butcher it yourself?: Yes / No **NOTES:

 

45 Any Other Wounds/Deformalities?: Yes / No **

 

46 Disposal of Carcass: Own use / Gift / Game Dealer / Unsaleable**

 

47 Dealers Name:

 

48 Weight Sold: (Head and Feet off) Lbs

 

49 Price per Pound Weight: £ P

 

50 DDM Fee: £ Cheque No:

 

1. ** Circle as necessary. (Supervisor)

2. If you have answered ‘YES’ to questions 34-39 or 45, please

expand overleaf Signed: (PDM)

 

 

It looks a lot but it is very easy to fill in, and only takes a few minutes to complete.

 

 

I bet I get a whole page to myself with this reply...... :*)

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The MoD has around 400 stalkers up and down the country. Every time a deer is culled, or even if a deer is found dead, a cull card has to be filled in.

 

Every year we get together for a symposium and AGM. At these meetings we try to book guest speakers. Most are well known in the stalking fraternity or they are professors specialising in a certain field to do with deer.

Talks vary from the

1. Spread of Lyme’s disease

2. Big cats

3. Aging deer

4. New proposed meat & hygiene regulations

5. Scoring Antlers etc

6. Foot & mouth

 

Getting back to your question.

 

We had a professor talk to us about our cull cards and the information given.

Basically this information builds up a picture of structure, density, health showing peaks and troughs etc, year on year.

 

Questions are raised like......

 

Are the deer bigger and healthier than they were say 10 years ago?

 

What effect does an active cull plan have on a deer herd, against a herd with a no stalking policy?

 

Do we need a change of policy to enable a sustainable healthy herd etc.

 

Usually we get an idea of what deer are on our ground during February. I personally lamp the fields and woods. Breaking our area in sub areas i.e. 1 - 6 then what species are there. How many males and females there are, and approx age if possible. We then look at local problems i.e. poaching RTA's mortality etc. Taking this into account we then submit a proposed cull plan to the MoD. They in there wisdom either agree, or they may seek further guidance on any local issues then come up with a revised figure.

 

Basically we aim for 1 x 1 Male to Female ratio

To cull 20% Mature

20% Middle age

60% Young

As I say these figures can be some what manipulated.

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