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mick miller

A mongrel by any other name...

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Look at the history of most breeds they are all cross breads and done that way for size,agility,ability etc the new injection of hybrid dogs was done for reasons at the start to maybe improve coats with a working dog or eliminate long running health issues and so on,but as we can see the dog breeders are putting a spin on breading novelty dogs to make money,you pays your money you takes your chance :good:

this is true ; after a few years of people breeding them, the KC will register them as 'breeds' :lol:

 

this is where the troube will really start :lol: ; a few generations of inbreeding, 'line breeding' and they have the health problems seen in so many of the revered 'pedigrees'. not to mention the single digit life expectancy and expensive insurance / vets bills :good:

this is why i like JRT's, good solid dog, tough as old boots. (yes they are mostly mongrels - although I understand the KC has got hold of one strain which will be ruined shortly :oops: ).

Edited by pegasus bridge

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although I understand the KC has got hold of one strain which will be ruined shortly :oops: ).

Like lakelands, borders, bedlingtons amongst others :yes:

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Don't get me wrong here, I'm no fan of the KC but they did stop line breeding years ago. Far too late I would say and also it often isn't the KC who ruins the breeds! It's breeders and show judges that either don't know the particular breed standard or go along with modern trendy fads. It's what happened to the GSD, the Chow, the Pug and the KC Spaniel to name just a few!

The breed standards are often interpreted too literally or the wrong emphasis is placed on a particular trait. This results in subtle changes which become accepted over time. Also there is a tendency for breeders to use the dog of the moment(recent Crufts winners etc) so any off-standard traits are soon passed on throughout the country(world even)

Blame lies with all breeders and owners but it's the puppy farmers who do most damage in my view not just the KC.

 

GH

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Don't get me wrong here, I'm no fan of the KC but they did stop line breeding years ago. Far too late I would say and also it often isn't the KC who ruins the breeds! It's breeders and show judges that either don't know the particular breed standard or go along with modern trendy fads. It's what happened to the GSD, the Chow, the Pug and the KC Spaniel to name just a few!

The breed standards are often interpreted too literally or the wrong emphasis is placed on a particular trait. This results in subtle changes which become accepted over time. Also there is a tendency for breeders to use the dog of the moment(recent Crufts winners etc) so any off-standard traits are soon passed on throughout the country(world even)

Blame lies with all breeders and owners but it's the puppy farmers who do most damage in my view not just the KC.

 

GH

 

i agree ; IIRC there was a boxer dog with a very serious genetic complaint, that was used to breed 800+ puppies, despite the fact it was known to the owner and the kc.

 

the exclusive pursuit of the asthetic in dog breeding is a fools journey, which is why I personally dont hold the KC in high regard. i know several people who have brought 'kc registered dogs' who have ended up treating varius ailments and weaknesses at great emotional and financial cost. its just not for me :no:

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:no: Drives me mad.

 

I have, for many years ran pure line siberian huskies, I've seen sibes that are obviously badly bred and slightly wonky to be told they are half wolf.

 

I have an absolute passion for my dogs and the breed in general, the demeanor, the mind set is so deeply seated in these dogs.

 

More annoying is the production of 'Alaskan Huskies', so they've actually bred two of the most primative breeds of dog (Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamute), with instinct so ingrained to do different jobs...so they can't run for far, or pull heavy loads...clever ****ers.

 

Just reminds me of the Fiat Multipla, what ever two cars they copulated to get that, didn't work either.

 

Does it look like these dogs need the millenia of selective breeding messing with?

 

bumholes.

post-19934-0-77733200-1335177174.jpg

Edited by kyska

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Yes, I'd forgotten the Husky. They are now so fine-legged as to be almost another breed......why?

I thought they needed as much bone as possible to make them fit for purpose!

I can see that the ones pictured are 'old school'. They look the part!!

 

GH

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Yes, I'd forgotten the Husky. They are now so fine-legged as to be almost another breed......why?

I thought they needed as much bone as possible to make them fit for purpose!

I can see that the ones pictured are 'old school'. They look the part!!

 

GH

 

Absolutely, mine would never get anywhere near a win in a KC run show, the current breed standards make them a chocolate teapot for what they are bred for, too fine, not enough frame for muscle (in the pic, they are all bitches with good frames), shallow chests, long bodies so the harnesses rip their back ends to bits...infuriating.

Edited by kyska

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Any crossbreed intentional or not is a Gyier or Mongrel to give them their proper title and Clowns are paying money for crossbreeds that decent people would put down, generations of breeding of dog's no matter what type are ****** up by people making up stupid names that others are falling for, A fool and their money are easily parted.They are makink a dicky of proper dog's, which the Kennell club is also doing with true breeds.

 

My Labrador is the old fashioned type, short muzzle, square head, nerves of steel and a brain like a Kray supercomputer. He is 50kg of pure muscle, no fat, admittedly he is over affectionate, but that is my fault. I wanted a Labrador like you used to see a nice large dog, that was friendly, had nerves you can trust and liked to give everybody a lot of attention. We got it! We bought a gun dog! We get accused of having a Rottweiler Labrador cross!

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My terrier, while genetically a yorkshire terrier has not got a KC pedigree and is in my mind all the better for it. If he conformed to the breed standard he would have to weigh no more than 7 lb and have a wizzened little head with sticky out eyes rather than being 20lb of lean muscle and bone with self reliant attitude.

 

IN my mind, certainly theres nothing wrong with celerbrating form but it should come third to function and health. I dont see that there are many Kennel Club Breeds that couldn't be improved upon by removing some inbred genetic material. The one thing that worries me though is that some people are breeding dogs to create a silly name dog rather than for the purposes of attempting to acheive certain characteristics.

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My wifeys grandfather ran the stud book for the kc in the seventies, eventually left due to infighting about breed standards, his pet hate was how king charles cavaliers were being bred so heads were to be smaller and rounder, as a result they put too much pressure on their brains resulting in serious problems. He wrote a book on breed standards and the difference between dogs then and now is amazing.

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Some bloke on here crossed a Patterdale with a Cocker. Lord only knows why :blink:

 

was it a packer or a catterdale :lol:

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When i started buying and using "sprockers" they were always sold to me on the understanding they were "crossbreeds"...i used to pay £100-£130.00 for them...now they are going for £300-£350.00 a piece !...the none shooting fraternity has been responsible for this, all to do with having the right "fashion accessorie"

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I'm sure this has been done before but...

 

Soooo, since having my new dog I've encountered many an odd mix on my travels. The thing that puzzles me is the owners insistence on conflating the two parent dogs (of pedigree more usually) into a new and unknown (to me) breed. I've learnt to bite my lip as the last conversation I had got a little strained and went something like this:

 

'How old is he?' they said,

'She's 9 months'

'Oh, isn't she pretty, she's quite small isn't she, what is breed is it?'

'It's a working cocker'

'Oh, she's small for a cocker isn't she, I thought they were bigger... This is a cockerdor'

'You mean it's a mongrel'

'NO! It's a cockerdor'

'Yes, there's no such thing as a cockerdor, what you've got there is called a mongrel' Followed by owner flouncing off into distance in a huff with said cockerdor towing them along.

 

Thus far I have met the following gun dog mixes; cockerdor, labradoodle, cockerdoodle, springerdor, but today takes the dog biscuit, today I met a.... wait for it... A BULLWEILER!! :w00t::yahoo::yay:

 

Anyone care to explain the conflation phenomenon because I'm at a loss. :eh:

I have a good one!!! my friend for some unknown reasen baught a YORKIE POO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Feel the same x breed = mongrel

 

Bumped into a old boy the other day walking what looked like a cocker, chatting away i said it was a freindly lttle cocker to which he replied "its not a cocker but a springer x cocker" ah a sprocker i said no no its a mongrel, great :good:

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In my local shop window

 

A litter of first generation Jack Russel X Miniature Poodle. Dogs £650 Bitches £750 :blink: :blink: It also go's on to say that both parents are pedigrees and these will be registered with the IDCR

 

http://designercanineregistry.com/ Sad isn't it!!

 

 

If you get 5 mins have a look on the designer dog website pictures at some of them, some just look completely wrong and unhealthy. Not a dog I would consider designer :no:

 

I did like the story on hear a while ago about the person in the vets who belived his dog was a cross breed with a wolf :lol:

Edited by ferguson_tom

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when pedigree dogs are having such trouble as hips,eyes etc, then I belive cross breeding is a good idea to some extent.

 

But in the same breath some cross breeds are stupid and pointless and there are some good pedigree breeders.

 

It's up to you what dog you buy.

 

I have a cross, Springer cross weimerana, she is a good dog that works well. My friend has a cocker that won't retrieve and runs off. He paid a a lot more than I did for my dog. Another friend has a black lab and she is a fantastic dog.

 

My point being it doesn't matter if you have a full pedigree dog, if your not committed to.its training then the dog just won't be that good

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As a newbie to the working dog seen, am i asking for probs with a kc registered dog?

i have just read this complete thread and am a bit confuzzelled.

i want an English springer for flush and retrieve.

some peeps say get a kc dog, some say it doesn't matter.

all i want at the end of the day is a steady dog that i can bond with in a working environment and enjoy the results of my training when in the field for real.

 

so kc or not?

 

what are your thoughts?

 

PS i am not jacking this thread it seems relevant to the general context.

 

HB

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I briefly thought about crossing a crocodile with a sh.t-zu

.

.

.

but on reflection

.

Who'd wanna buy.. a Croco-**** :lol:

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After so many generations doesn't a dog becomes a breed in its own right anyway? so really your pedigree dogs are just old mongrels and dogs like labradoodles are new pedigrees, I don't see the point in been snobby about it, dogs have always been crossed to bring out the best of each breed which is why we have the 'pedigree' dogs people are so snobby about now.

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As a newbie to the working dog seen, am i asking for probs with a kc registered dog?

i have just read this complete thread and am a bit confuzzelled.

i want an English springer for flush and retrieve.

some peeps say get a kc dog, some say it doesn't matter.

all i want at the end of the day is a steady dog that i can bond with in a working environment and enjoy the results of my training when in the field for real.

 

so kc or not?

 

what are your thoughts?

 

PS i am not jacking this thread it seems relevant to the general context.

 

HB

 

Just buy the one with the decent pedigree, but also look at the pedigree and where you've bought it from. Are they breeding the occasional litter or making a living out of it? A pedigree lets you have some element of idea whats in the dogs history and a fair bit can be checked up on regarding health tests etc with the Kennel club. You'll get the mockers on here who don't believe in them and that everyone is crooked in the kennel club but usually they are from oop North and don't like paying the registration and have non registered dogs.

With a springer they are fairly free of genetic issues and the normal things more associated with Labs but do research first. Then try and see both parents and also where the dog is kept etc and build up a picture of the sellers as well.

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After so many generations doesn't a dog becomes a breed in its own right anyway? so really your pedigree dogs are just old mongrels and dogs like labradoodles are new pedigrees, I don't see the point in been snobby about it, dogs have always been crossed to bring out the best of each breed which is why we have the 'pedigree' dogs people are so snobby about now.

Yes and no.

A lot of current breeds were bred for a specific purpose and their actual appearance mattered little (in the beginning). What was important was their ability to do their work. Yes, a lot started off from crosses, but by careful selection the characteristics (physical and mental) could be honed to give the perfect working animal for each situation. Eventually those characteristics would become typical and the animal would breed true, with each generation being identical. That would establish a particular breed, as such.

 

The problem with the show circuit is that the characteristics are often taken to exaggeration, and this is when problems arise with a lot of breeds. Similarly, some of the small time breeders don't do the research on their own dogs or aren't prepared to travel to use the right animals. They may even have bought inferior stock in the first place, which really shouldn't be bred from at all! This is also where problems can arise. A KC reg means nothing on either health or fitness for purpose.

 

Kyska's dogs look magnificent and as one person has said 'old school'. I'll wager those weren't developed using the nearest dog available or the current vogue for extra-lean 'working' style show dogs?

 

To answer your question more fully, the crosses like the cockerpoo could really only be classed as 'designer' crosses because there is simply no benefit or purpose towards it's establishment as a breed. They are also not breed typical, just an F1 cross. Now, if someone really wanted to develop a new breed, then it is possible, but you would have to get them breeding true to type (if you could ever establish what that breed standard would be) and it's really a lifetime's work to get to that point. I'm not saying it can't be done (take the wire-haired vizsla, for example) but with the current crosses for short-term cash gain, it's unlikely.

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Like your post Paul T.

i am not a fan of cross dogs, though i have met some quite nice ones, I do agree that if you were looking to change a characteristics within a breed to improve its funtion, and another breed had that desired characteristic then crossing is the answer, however it is a long term project and any that didnt have the desired trait need to be removed from the future breeding line.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and ones mans WHV is soft and fluffy, but who will prevent this from going forward?

and only true wire coats being bred from.

there is such a diverse quality of breeds out there, why not do their homework and buy the type of dog that they hope and pray to achieve by crossing...

( i will leave the lurcher out of this argument...)

accidents happen, and i am glad someone will give the strange little dogs a home, and maybe work, but to plan them as designer / fashion for now dogs is cruel. Esp when they are shipped off just cos next seasons dog is ...green...

jan

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my friend had a labradoodle and this was crossed with a cocker and became a cock a doodle, which was crossed with another doodle of some type and now wakes me up early every morning, it is a cocker doodle doo

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my friend had a labradoodle and this was crossed with a cocker and became a cock a doodle, which was crossed with another doodle of some type and now wakes me up early every morning, it is a cocker doodle doo

 

Chuffing hell Terry!

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:yes: I keep them and just call them mongrels although they are deerhound cross greyhound :good:

what you have got there is a lurcher.which means mongrel.les

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