denniswebb Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 If you go to an international fitasc event, there is a code of target setting, In the UK English Sporting seems to have almost no controling body that sets standards. Keith Roe should have been clearly told what is expected as to the level of difficulty laid down for a selection shoot, as an experienced course designer you have to consider that he knew full well what he was doing, i consider the level of difficulty was generally 10 targets lower than what it should have been. Imagine if it had been a windier day than it was, in my opinion the course was hastely put together, black fast clays on dark backgrounds Orange midi's on bright skies. I saw some shooters giving Keith stick and spoke to many Northerners who were moaning, there were a few who like it as it was, but they were younger shooters with good eyesight. My biggest grip was a fantastic ground, but **** trap settings, all in a line, no thought or imagination put into the targets. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Dennis, for Christ's sake grow up. You've ruined your own website don't try and ruin this as well. If Keith Roe is such a good mate, moan at him about the targets, he set them. He probably did what he thought was right only to be dragged over the coals by the likes of you. No wonder Sporting is in such a sorry state. Perhaps it would be good for clayshooting if you stayed at Southdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 The trouble with a code for setting target difficulty is how do you judge difficulty in sporting? We all have our bogey targets, there are a few of us of PW that often shoot together Anni hates loopers but loves to take things on the drop, Chard hates things on the drop, canthitathing can only shoot left handed stands and I hate fast low overhead incomers. I for one don’t want to pay international fitasc prices at a selection shoot just so the course can be vetted by a committee, and if the committee was made up of us lot you would be struggling to find a target we could agree on. The wind can badly affect any course on the day, it’s the nature of the game unless you just want all low birds or rabbits, I agree about colour of targets and background though. The thing we have to remember is Keith Roe and Coniston have put on many good shoots in the past, this time they dropped the ball, they could have easily rectified it for the next shoot but unfortunately due to the morons we will not find out if this was the case. If people had complained properly through the correct channels then maybe we could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I made my feeling clear to the ground manager Keith Roe, i thought the refs did a good job,when i had problems seeing the impossible tower orange midi against a bright sky Forget about the stupid targets i consider the level of difficulty was generally 10 targets lower than what it should have been. Imagine if it had been a windier day than it was, in my opinion the course was hastely put together, black fast clays on dark backgrounds Dennis - if Keith was my mate, I would not be critical of him on an open forum. What you said to him or your opinion of his "errors" should have remained private. As for Mungler taking stick. He is big enough and sharp enough to look after himself, but where did that come from? He posted in an initially humorous manner, but had serious points to make. Anyone listen? :no: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) He posted in an initially humorous manner, but had serious points to make. Anyone listen? :no: I listened to the bit about looking for an excuse to bail and I agree. I wasn't at the shoot, so I'm talking heresay out of my harris, but word is that ONE person moaned about last years comp being too easy. So they spit the dummy out and punish everybody by putting on a ballbreaker. Personally, I don't think many people mind a hard shoot, but they want an imaginitive one. A definition of "severe verbal abuse" would be interesting.....was it just people saying the targets were naff? They didn't hold a lot of registered shoots before, another ground that likes the "Premier" label but doesn't want to put the shoots on, a la Grimsthorpe..... Would be a shame to see any reduction in registered shoot availability up here, but if it's anything to do with dummy-spitting or churlish reaction to past criticism, I'm neither sympathetic nor interested. Edited April 24, 2012 by Chard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Dennis, for Christ's sake grow up. You've ruined your own website don't try and ruin this as well. If Keith Roe is such a good mate, moan at him about the targets, he set them. He probably did what he thought was right only to be dragged over the coals by the likes of you. No wonder Sporting is in such a sorry state. Perhaps it would be good for clayshooting if you stayed at Southdown. I like to get up north now and again, if you had been paying attention, i never minded the shoot as i won the old ****, the problem i have is over 40 years i have never really seen much progress in English Sporting, when i started, these shoots were premiour events, but now they just seen to be an earner. As far as the website goes , it had run its course, it was set up for a specic reason and 5 years was more than enough......My shooting has imporved no end since its demise and i am really past it, running websites are a young mans game. I cannot remember how many times i have sat on committees and the thought for the day is 'we can all learn from this' We never do, at least by airing this on websites, other grounds will think twice before going down this road.....Its supposed to be a discipline, this event should be de-registered, as it bore no resemblance to averages, the only good thing is there are provisions to drop 10% of the scores at the end of the year....this will certainly one to be dropped.. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratman2 Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Hey up Dennis, have you managed to get on the new shootclay site. :lol: They won't let me on :D Edited April 24, 2012 by Ratman2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Chard - a balanced post. :good: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 sadly i think they probably dug there own grave. the shoot was fairly hard (thats no big problem in itself aslong as its enjoyable) but the targets were all very samey, it just lacked variety imo. it was all a bit too much queueing on every stand, it really would have been better over 2 days or opened up the entry window over the one day (entries were 10-12:30 i think that day). i did see one scorer screw up big time and manage to keep adding new cards above those who were waiting. my friend waited over 1hr30min on that stand before quizing the scorer about where there cards were, he then just gave her abuse which wasnt exactly fair. and to cap it off there was a rotund, miserable, old ex-webbsite owning essex chap lucking around which spoiled everyones day at the end of the day people are travelling a long way and paying a lot of money to shoot these shoots, so at least make it enjoyable. hardly suprising they got a few complaints, but any decent ground would try and learn from there mistakes and come back stronger and better, sadly this doesnt look like they can be bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Does the relatively early closing time add to the problems on a Sunday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil moss Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Its supposed to be a discipline, this event should be de-registered, as it bore no resemblance to averages, the only good thing is there are provisions to drop 10% of the scores at the end of the year....this will certainly one to be dropped.. Dennis Dennis, suggest that you do your homework 1st as the winner of this event shot 4% above his current average !! :blush: :good: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Does the relatively early closing time add to the problems on a Sunday? yes because of the small entry window all the entrants end up on the course at the same time, rather than being staggered through the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I think we are nearer now to knowing why Keith screwed up, it seems that he had his hands full setting up the 2 day fitasc selection shoot in Wales last week-end. He was probably more focused on that, and Phil the winner must have been to only one? Dennis And Ratty i did try to join but kept getting knocked back....I forgot how enjoyable the banter was on these sites, i never knew how much i missed it. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 I am dissapointed that no-one from the ground or Keith has bothered to apoligise, grounds are in the entertainment buisness, if its a **** show who will come back for a repeat show another year. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Keith screwed up Is there some particular reason why Keith Roe keeps getting a slagging? Whether the clays were poor or brilliant, I see no reason to keep on about him. Some friend. :no: :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted April 24, 2012 Report Share Posted April 24, 2012 Well, I for 1 would have been going back for a repeat in May if it hadn't have been cancelled along with maybe another 100 people. I hope that Keith and Peter from the ground will recognise how they are valued in the North and will come on board again in the future. I would suggest that anyone on here that values their " local " grounds sends an E- Mail to the ground letting their feelings be known. We cannot afford to lose quality grounds like this because of a few mindless loud mouthed bullies.I would also hope that someone on the North Committee writes an article in Pull about the spin off that these people create long after they have left the ground. from Auntie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 We all keep going on about how gratefull we should be that ground owners dish out there charitable deeds as if sporting shooters are a basket case and we have to rely on there benevolance....What was the entry to the shoot....300 to 400....about £10,000 turnover for a days work, not bad for a recession...every thing going for it, weather, good entry great location...where was the problem. There was a time when i had a lot of sympathy for ground owners, but this is there buisness, like Southdown had to learn the hard lessons, so do the rest....Its just like any other buisness...The punter is king, you are in the entertainment game......Bums on seats....Sporting shooters are a fickle bunch, get it right, i may not like him but Dyson knows exactly want shooters want and he gives it to them.....1100 shooters at the Essex Masters.....£80,000 income, if the fiddler & Southdown can get it right so easily why haven't many of the rest....don't blame the shooters, it should be a simple job to give them what they want...they only want good targets, reasonable toilets, access and hot food, nothing really much there....In my buisness i produce a product if the punter don't like it they don't pay...shooters pay in advance...what a buisness and its nearly all cash..... Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Dennis - don't hide behind a carefully chosen phrase what a buisness and its nearly all cash If you are hinting at something - just spit it out. Edited April 25, 2012 by Gordon R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian E Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Well guys I think there's been some good points raised in this thread, but we are clearly drifting away from the main point. That being that a small number of people have been rude and abusive to the staff on the day, to the degree were a large amount of shooters will miss out in the future unless Coniston have a change of heart. I'm not a mod here, but may I request, that we leave it now to avoid doing anymore potential damage, as this is clearly a very delicate situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Dennis, please get your facts correct, I would think that the entry was nearer to 250 than 300. Showing what a popular venue this was. Also the ground was open to entries from 9-30 untill 1-30, I had personnally finished shooting at 11-45 and indeed had no queueing on a number of stands. It is not indecent to make profit but it is despicable to abuse staff. from Auntie. :yes:Sorry Ian i was typing this and your post came up wheni had just done mine.. Edited April 25, 2012 by 100milesaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denniswebb Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 To finish this topic, all i can say is we shoot a discipline thats supposed to be governed in this case by the Northern Regional Committee, targets should be set as laid down by the rules, clearly owing to the restrictions imposed at having to finish by 1.30 pm it should as Westfield did staged over 2 days or demoted to later in the series, but rotation dictates who gets what at what time of year. You should only be eligable as a ground if you can meet the conditions, clearly Coniston couldn't. The rest is incidental, yes the targets were not acceptable and should be de-registered, because they never met the standard required. But personally i didn't mind them except the poor eyesight stands, from my own point it cost me 25 gallon of fuel, night in a hotel all in all about £500....Over 40 years in this game its happened many times that shoots don't live up to expectations. There is always the next one. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 To finish this topic, all i can say is we shoot a discipline thats supposed to be governed in this case by the Northern Regional Committee, targets should be set as laid down by the rules, clearly owing to the restrictions imposed at having to finish by 1.30 pm it should as Westfield did staged over 2 days or demoted to later in the series, but rotation dictates who gets what at what time of year. You should only be eligable as a ground if you can meet the conditions, clearly Coniston couldn't. The rest is incidental, yes the targets were not acceptable and should be de-registered, because they never met the standard required. But personally i didn't mind them except the poor eyesight stands, from my own point it cost me 25 gallon of fuel, night in a hotel all in all about £500....Over 40 years in this game its happened many times that shoots don't live up to expectations. There is always the next one. Dennis £500? Somebody saw you coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmsy Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 advertised last entries were 12:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timps Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 To finish this topic, all i can say is we shoot a discipline thats supposed to be governed in this case by the Northern Regional Committee, targets should be set as laid down by the rules, clearly owing to the restrictions imposed at having to finish by 1.30 pm it should as Westfield did staged over 2 days or demoted to later in the series, but rotation dictates who gets what at what time of year. You should only be eligable as a ground if you can meet the conditions, clearly Coniston couldn't. The rest is incidental, yes the targets were not acceptable and should be de-registered, because they never met the standard required. But personally i didn't mind them except the poor eyesight stands, from my own point it cost me 25 gallon of fuel, night in a hotel all in all about £500....Over 40 years in this game its happened many times that shoots don't live up to expectations. There is always the next one. Dennis The OP was about abusive competitors causing a shoot to be cancelled I fail to see how your post addresses that. How was it not governed by the Northern Regional Committee? How were the Targets not set out to the rules for English sporting? Why should it be deregistered, the whole enjoyment of sporting is to shoot varying grounds of different toughness. If you want to shoot the same toughness of shoots throughout the country then shoot skeet or a similar discipline that has standard targets. Also by the same logic would you deregister an easy event where everyone shoots above their average? Also isn’t the selection worked out off the H/G so the toughness of the shoot is factored in? I have had to endure queues at British Open this year, not good but it happens. The main rule that should have been adhered to is: 2.58 ALL QUERIES AND PROTESTS SHOULD BE MADE IN A QUIET AND ORDERLY MANNER. And finally on your last point there is not a next one for us Northerners as its the Northern selection shoot that has been cancelled and we don’t have many grounds willing to hold them the whole point of the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100milesaway Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 advertised last entries were 12:30 Sorry, Emmsey I was just going off what was advertised in Pull and Clay Shooting Mags. from Auntie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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