£50 million on what for Gods sake.

[Gillaroo]

Here's the response I got...

 

"Thank you for your email to Seb Coe, who has asked me to respond.

 

Seb was sorry to hear your concerns about the Shooting venue for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games and he appreciates you taking the time to write to him personally.

 

The Olympic Board made the decision after a thorough review not to proceed with Bisley as the Shooting venue on the grounds of cost, operational complexity and risks associated with the proposals that could compromise the reputation of the Games.

 

Firstly, regarding cost, none of the ranges at Bisley are suitable for Olympic and Paralympic competition thus requiring new ranges to be built. The facilities at Bisley would require additional athlete and officials’ accommodation and the building of a satellite village. The costings provided for us by Bisley did not take into account accommodation, security and transport costs.

 

Secondly, land ownership at Bisley is complex requiring separate legal agreements to be made with the many different gun clubs which are based on the site for exclusive usage at Games-time.

 

Thirdly, there would also be time risks because the Bisley site lies within a greenbelt area adjacent to housing and is a designated Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). The difficulty of securing planning consent to clear this SSSI greenbelt land and build ranges upon it made the Bisley proposal significantly high risk.

 

LOCOG (the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games), which Seb Chairs, has always been clear that legacy embraces a concept that goes beyond bricks and mortar and by bringing Shooting into the heart of the Games we are confident that there will be a sporting legacy left from new audiences being introduced to the sport for the first time.

 

Thank you, once again, for writing and I hope that you find this information helpful."

 

I still think it should have been Bisley though!

 

Cheers

 

Gillaroo

Edited June 7, 2012 by Gillaroo

[fieldwanderer]

I thought Bisley already had an Olympic standard clay "range"!?

 

 

Perhaps it wasn't shiney enough seeing as they built it about 10yrs ago

 

 

 

 

Edit; Sorry, I didn't notice the second page! Still seems ridiculous to me though

 

 

Wonder if they're going to use the trampoline that is the 10mtr air range We (the junior squad when I was with them) were the first to ever use it and expressed our concerns almost immediately - the floor bounced as people walked around, especially larger people. It got reinforced but didn't really improve much - another huge waste of money.

Edited June 7, 2012 by fieldwanderer

[Salopian]

If you have a look in Sporting Gun you will see good photographs of the Olympic Clay shooting facility.

Now, could any of you who are quantity surveyors or building contractors please give me the benefit of your skills and tell me how much you would want to build that facility? What cost wooden huts and the ballistic screening because I cannot see much else that would be capital expenditure.

[smallbore]

OK, let's put a few truths into this thread and I will declare my interests straight away. My name is Bob Meadows and I am an ISSF Rifle, Pistol and Electronic Targets International 'B' Judge, CPSA Referee, CPSA Safety Officer, NSRA Range Officer, CPSA Life Member and Northants CPSA Chairman. I am involved with the Olympics as a National Technical Officer (NTO) on the clay and 10m/50m ranges. I spent two weeks at the Test Event in April 2012, where 808 competitors from 95 countries shot the Olympic disciplines. 390 competitors will shoot at the Olympic Games.

 

Let me start on the Bisley issue and why it could never be there. As already stated, Bisley ranges (clay and smallbore rifle/pistol) are all pointing in the wrong direction and have no facility to house large quantities of spectators. A great example is stand 1 on the skeet ranges, which, in the morning make it impossible to see the clays due to the sun being in your eyes! They would definately need rebuilding. The current ranges were built for the Commonwealth Games and I know for a fact, the NSRA Rifle/Pistol range has struggled to cover its running costs since then and only now can do it with weddings, roller hockey and other non-shooting events held in the shooting ranges. There is no suitable accomodation on site and the NSRA proposal to build a hotel on the triangle of land they bought where the Trench Experience was, has never been undertaken. In addition to all this, the LOCOG restriction of 10% of sports close to the Olympic village has already been exceeded due to the requirement to attract International visitors to football grounds such as Old Trafford. So, bottom line, Bisley was never going to be acceptable. Other proposals were made by numerous people, including Dartford and Southern Counties, but by then the decisions had already been made with LOCOG.

 

Its also important to understand that the shooting is a small piece of the whole Olympic Games Jigsaw. Moving somthing from Woolwich to another location was not going to be possible once agreed, due to the impact on other schedules and services.

 

On the cost front, the cost has actually reduced from its peak about a year ago, through cost cutting and careful scrutiny of expenditure. All the NTO/Referees are doubled up in hotel rooms with other NTOs and their only 'payment' is the cost of dinner in the evenings and mileage for one return trip from their home to Woolwich. NTOs have to take some two weeks time off and the ones coming early to allow the shooters to undertake unofficial training at the ranges, have to be on-site from another 10 days earlier.

 

When comment is made about the pictures of the location, I can understand the image that is presented. What needs to be remembered is that the pictures came from the Test Event, that LOCOG undertook to test the operation of the actual shooting ranges and not the bits in-between. LOCOG did not really want spectators, but they agreed about 200 tickets a day for 'friends and family' of the shooters. What did happen at the Test Event was just what LOCOG wanted, the ISSF World Cup was run VERY successfully and we found a number of issues that will be addressed before the start of the events at the end of July. I personally provided a 'snagging' list of items that need to be changed/addressed and will make sure the operation of the ranges is effective. Already, the groundworks are being addressed and we will see something that looks and feels like a professional event and something we will be proud of.

 

On the subject of legacy, there is definately going to be a legacy. At the end of the games, the equipment is being containerised and I have been told will end up at Glasgow in 2014 for the upcoming Commonwealth Games. The rumour is that after that event, it will be distributed to enhance facilities around the country. (That part has not been confirmed yet, but it would be absolutely great if we created a northern Bisley!) I have personally suggested one legacy proposal, by taking the 10m/50m artificial turf and laying it on the 50m range at Bisley. That would improve that range immeasurably. There was also a comment on wastage at Woolwich and 'inappropriate spending'. From my knowledge of the people actually undertaking the management of the development, I cannot see that being true. Seeing the quality of the marine grade plyboard being used to construct and protect the superstructure on the ranges, I can see a lot of funding being sucked into that sort of construction. I would suspect a large quantity of the funding has been spent on the construction of the buildings, the landscaping, the fencing, the netting, the construction contracts, the logistics contracts etc.

 

So, it is not a pretty picture, but 1000s of people have been involved in the event building and although I am biased, I think we will put on a World Class event and it would be great to think we might break even.

 

I will be mainly on the shotgun range and if you see someone in a dark green official's vest with Bob Meadows on the name tag, do say hello and mention PW. If you see me on the 10m/50m range in a light green vest do the same. Cheer with the rest of the crowd and think of all the effort that not only the athletes have invested, but the NTOs are all Judges in their own right and have probably invested between £2,000 and £5,000 in cash to get where there are. I am a volunteer Rifle/Pistol official (generally only receive mileage, but have to pay my own food, accomodation and wear and tear) and shotgun referee whenever I can. Between now and the Olympic Games I will referee the Jack Pyke for two days, English Open and British Open All Round, British Open Side-by-Side and put on the Beds Police 100 Sporting at Northampton Shooting Ground on Saturday 7th July.

 

I hope this helps and provides a little insight into what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Best wishes to all

Bob Meadows

[BlaserF3]

Hello Bob,

 

Thank you very much for your reply, it's good to hear from the Horses mouth, so to speak.

 

Do you happen to know anything about when lead shot is going to be banned? There is a thread in General shooting matters.

[SakoQuad]

OK, let's put a few truths into this thread and I will declare my interests straight away. My name is Bob Meadows and I am an ISSF Rifle, Pistol and Electronic Targets International 'B' Judge, CPSA Referee, CPSA Safety Officer, NSRA Range Officer, CPSA Life Member and Northants CPSA Chairman. I am involved with the Olympics as a National Technical Officer (NTO) on the clay and 10m/50m ranges. I spent two weeks at the Test Event in April 2012, where 808 competitors from 95 countries shot the Olympic disciplines. 390 competitors will shoot at the Olympic Games.

 

Let me start on the Bisley issue and why it could never be there. As already stated, Bisley ranges (clay and smallbore rifle/pistol) are all pointing in the wrong direction and have no facility to house large quantities of spectators. A great example is stand 1 on the skeet ranges, which, in the morning make it impossible to see the clays due to the sun being in your eyes! They would definately need rebuilding. The current ranges were built for the Commonwealth Games and I know for a fact, the NSRA Rifle/Pistol range has struggled to cover its running costs since then and only now can do it with weddings, roller hockey and other non-shooting events held in the shooting ranges. There is no suitable accomodation on site and the NSRA proposal to build a hotel on the triangle of land they bought where the Trench Experience was, has never been undertaken. In addition to all this, the LOCOG restriction of 10% of sports close to the Olympic village has already been exceeded due to the requirement to attract International visitors to football grounds such as Old Trafford. So, bottom line, Bisley was never going to be acceptable. Other proposals were made by numerous people, including Dartford and Southern Counties, but by then the decisions had already been made with LOCOG.

 

Its also important to understand that the shooting is a small piece of the whole Olympic Games Jigsaw. Moving somthing from Woolwich to another location was not going to be possible once agreed, due to the impact on other schedules and services.

 

On the cost front, the cost has actually reduced from its peak about a year ago, through cost cutting and careful scrutiny of expenditure. All the NTO/Referees are doubled up in hotel rooms with other NTOs and their only 'payment' is the cost of dinner in the evenings and mileage for one return trip from their home to Woolwich. NTOs have to take some two weeks time off and the ones coming early to allow the shooters to undertake unofficial training at the ranges, have to be on-site from another 10 days earlier.

 

When comment is made about the pictures of the location, I can understand the image that is presented. What needs to be remembered is that the pictures came from the Test Event, that LOCOG undertook to test the operation of the actual shooting ranges and not the bits in-between. LOCOG did not really want spectators, but they agreed about 200 tickets a day for 'friends and family' of the shooters. What did happen at the Test Event was just what LOCOG wanted, the ISSF World Cup was run VERY successfully and we found a number of issues that will be addressed before the start of the events at the end of July. I personally provided a 'snagging' list of items that need to be changed/addressed and will make sure the operation of the ranges is effective. Already, the groundworks are being addressed and we will see something that looks and feels like a professional event and something we will be proud of.

 

On the subject of legacy, there is definately going to be a legacy. At the end of the games, the equipment is being containerised and I have been told will end up at Glasgow in 2014 for the upcoming Commonwealth Games. The rumour is that after that event, it will be distributed to enhance facilities around the country. (That part has not been confirmed yet, but it would be absolutely great if we created a northern Bisley!) I have personally suggested one legacy proposal, by taking the 10m/50m artificial turf and laying it on the 50m range at Bisley. That would improve that range immeasurably. There was also a comment on wastage at Woolwich and 'inappropriate spending'. From my knowledge of the people actually undertaking the management of the development, I cannot see that being true. Seeing the quality of the marine grade plyboard being used to construct and protect the superstructure on the ranges, I can see a lot of funding being sucked into that sort of construction. I would suspect a large quantity of the funding has been spent on the construction of the buildings, the landscaping, the fencing, the netting, the construction contracts, the logistics contracts etc.

 

So, it is not a pretty picture, but 1000s of people have been involved in the event building and although I am biased, I think we will put on a World Class event and it would be great to think we might break even.

 

I will be mainly on the shotgun range and if you see someone in a dark green official's vest with Bob Meadows on the name tag, do say hello and mention PW. If you see me on the 10m/50m range in a light green vest do the same. Cheer with the rest of the crowd and think of all the effort that not only the athletes have invested, but the NTOs are all Judges in their own right and have probably invested between £2,000 and £5,000 in cash to get where there are. I am a volunteer Rifle/Pistol official (generally only receive mileage, but have to pay my own food, accomodation and wear and tear) and shotgun referee whenever I can. Between now and the Olympic Games I will referee the Jack Pyke for two days, English Open and British Open All Round, British Open Side-by-Side and put on the Beds Police 100 Sporting at Northampton Shooting Ground on Saturday 7th July.

 

I hope this helps and provides a little insight into what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Best wishes to all

Bob Meadows

Hi Bob, thanks for the info. which is interesting and informative. I am not sure that it deals with the question which causes the problems in many peoples mind however.

No-one doubts the commitment and indeed sacrifice made by many people such as yourself in making things happen, that isn't the issue or the complaint.

 

The issue is the spending of £50 MILLION pounds of public money on a venue which has been constructed at a place where it will have to be be pulled down after the Games offering nothing to this country's shooters. You say equipment will be stored for 2 years and re-used in 2014 then (hopefully) distributed, the criteria used for that exercise will be interesting to know nearer the time but that will be it (IF it happens).

 

I don't know if £50 million would have been enough to make Bisley usable (I see on an earlier thread there may have been just too many other complications your average man might not know about apart from what you say). I do know that this money spent on a National Centre somewhere other than the SE and somewhere that did not mean it being destroyed immediately the Games were finished, would have got resounding applause and been something ordinary folk could recognise as a true and tangible legacy.

 

As you yourself say, "I would suspect a large quantity of the funding has been spent on the construction of the buildings, the landscaping, the fencing, the netting, the construction contracts, the logistics contracts etc". Exactly, that is what many of us suspect too and THAT is the bit that makes some of us very cross in the knowledge that it is that bit which will be destroyed and not made available for ordinary people to use & enjoy in the future.

Edited June 9, 2012 by SakoQuad

[Livefast123]

As above, the problem in most peoples mind is not the staff etc but the 50 million pounds of public money that will give UK shooting diddly squat. They are spending all that money on something that is going to be destroyed and probably turned into executive flats.

 

Lets be honest, the equipment is a tiny part of the equasion. Would it not have been better to have built the centre at a location where it could have done the UK shooting community proud for years to come?

[Diceman]

Well done Bob, thanks for that, there is always another side to every story. Will be at the DT finals and keeping an eye out for you!

[rodp]

To be honest, whilst I admire the effort freely put in by the likes of Bob I do feel as though they're being used. It's bad enough Coe and co ripping the taxpayer off for everything he can but they're even using the likes of Bob as free labour :o

Talk about troughing it, they must have their snouts in it up to their feet.

[Salopian]

Bob,

Would you like to disclose how much you were paid to officiate at a World event at Woolwich? :D

[smallbore]

Bob,

Would you like to disclose how much you were paid to officiate at a World event at Woolwich? :D

 

Nothing to hide here! Initial travel from home to and from the location was paid through mileage at 45p per mile (I claimed 76 miles x 2). Breakfast was included in the hotel cost (Novatel Greenwich) and a decent size packed lunch on the range each day (either veggie or non-veggie). We were given £25 per day (known as per diem) to cover dinner and incidentals, which, as we were basically working from before 07:00 through 18:00 at the range, was enough to spend on dinner before getting as much sleep as possible! As one of the officials that arrived early to allow unofficial training, I was there for 13 days in total (10 days off work).

 

ISSF World Cups are generally self-funded, so the published entry fees were as follows:

 

€ 170 per shooter/event

€ 50 per official

€ 50 for a late entry (ISSF rule 3.7.3.4.3)

 

From that you can work out that 808 competitors would generate circa € 137,360 + say 2 officials for each of the 95 countries generates € 9,500 or a total of circa £119,000. This would need some additional support from LOCOG to cover the cost of running this particular event, as extra security, catering, cleaning, logistics, admin etc would be necessary just to run the site.

 

Other benefits we received were a rainproof lightweight fold-up Adidas rain jacket and one teal Adidas T-Shirt. We also have a Official's waistcoat style jacket which we will also wear at the Olympic Games.

 

To answer your next question, we have been informed that at the Olympic Games, per diem will be £30 per day and the same mileage as above. We also get a uniform to wear, which you might guess will be a souvenir after the event and most components not wearable afterwards due to huge logos etc. I expect to be at the Olympics for between 14 and 17 days, of which between 10 and 13 will be days off work.

 

So, hopefully that gives you the low-down on what the 'payment' is to Technical Officers and a further 'feel' for where some of the funding goes.

 

Best regards

 

Bob M

[tiganut]

The whole thing is a massive waste of OUR money.10 billion my backside.Surrey County Council are spending 100 million on the roads for the bike race,Elmbridge council 15 million,none of this from the olympic budget.This will make the RBS scandel seem like small change.

I would like to know Seb Coe's nett worth 5 years ago,& again at the end of this.

Rant over

[rodp]

The whole thing is a massive waste of OUR money.10 billion my backside.Surrey County Council are spending 100 million on the roads for the bike race,Elmbridge council 15 million,none of this from the olympic budget.This will make the RBS scandel seem like small change.

I would like to know Seb Coe's nett worth 5 years ago,& again at the end of this.Rant over

 

 

Yep, that would make interesting reading. That's supposing you could actually find where he's stashed it.

[Salopian]

Bob,

I certainly was not begrudging you whatever you got paid ( don't forget HMGIR 20% to 25%) but is it really worth that much to be officiating at a money making event for the likes of Coe & Co to work 11 hour days for £2-27 an hour?

McDonalds give you a free uniform and more than double that per hour + you can earn silver stars. :D :D

[Zapp]

Whatever our feelings about the Olympics and the decisions taken with regard to it, it is probably not a bad time to point out that we should all think very carefully before making posts on a public access forum that we could end up having to defend in court at a later date.

[denniswebb]

As a sporting shooter and been on the B.I.C.T.S.F and involved in the Olympic Disciplines, Selection process and the rest of the ****, i am disgusted that my discipline will never be included in the Olympics, despite being bigger that all the Olympic shooting disciplines put together, nearly 20,000,000 million shoot sporting in some form in Europe, yet we will never be in the starting blocks.....Whilst We continue to allow other shooters from other disciplines talk on our behalf we will never be included. What we should be doing is campaigning, demostrating and making our voice heard, there will never be another better time....

 

Dennis Webb

[EdSolomons]

As a sporting shooter and been on the B.I.C.T.S.F and involved in the Olympic Disciplines, Selection process and the rest of the ****, i am disgusted that my discipline will never be included in the Olympics, despite being bigger that all the Olympic shooting disciplines put together, nearly 20,000,000 million shoot sporting in some form in Europe, yet we will never be in the starting blocks.....Whilst We continue to allow other shooters from other disciplines talk on our behalf we will never be included. What we should be doing is campaigning, demostrating and making our voice heard, there will never be another better time....

 

Dennis Webb

 

Check your numbers Dennis I recon 20 billion might be a bit strong.....!

[huffhuff]

As a sporting shooter and been on the B.I.C.T.S.F and involved in the Olympic Disciplines, Selection process and the rest of the ****, i am disgusted that my discipline will never be included in the Olympics, despite being bigger that all the Olympic shooting disciplines put together, nearly 20,000,000 million shoot sporting in some form in Europe, yet we will never be in the starting blocks.....Whilst We continue to allow other shooters from other disciplines talk on our behalf we will never be included. What we should be doing is campaigning, demostrating and making our voice heard, there will never be another better time....

 

Dennis Webb

 

I was thinking about this the other day. Somebody asked why the sporting discipline is not in the olympics. I could only really think of one reason (and that took me all of a 3 course meal and copious drinks at the bar). All other sports/events in the Olympics are laid out, or constructed to exact 'universal' distances, measures, heights etc.. This is for obvious reasons - all athletes are training to the same standards regardless of where they are so it is fair, and even across the board. How could you replicate a sporting layout across the globe? There are too many differentials and varying factors - you'd never get the same presentation. Of course you could bring guidelines, sizes, measurements etc.. to a universally agreed standard... but then you'd have something like, I dunno, Olympic Trap or Skeet. Surely 'universalising' (that's an actual word) sporting layouts would take away the true essence of the discipline...?

 

But, I am merely an armchair shooter. What the hell do I know. Anybody else know why it can't be classed as an Olympic Sport? What are the checkboxes the IOC need to tick?

Edited June 13, 2012 by huffhuff

[BlaserF3]

Whatever our feelings about the Olympics and the decisions taken with regard to it, it is probably not a bad time to point out that we should all think very carefully before making posts on a public access forum that we could end up having to defend in court at a later date.

 

So long as you do not tell lies you can say what you want. At this moment in time we still have freedom of speech.

[rodp]

So long as you do not tell lies you can say what you want. At this moment in time we still have freedom of speech.

 

 

True, but bear in mind you can't afford the lawyers they can .........and unfortunately money counts in the legal system.

[PhilR]

As a sporting shooter and been on the B.I.C.T.S.F and involved in the Olympic Disciplines, Selection process and the rest of the ****, i am disgusted that my discipline will never be included in the Olympics, despite being bigger that all the Olympic shooting disciplines put together, nearly 20,000,000 million shoot sporting in some form in Europe, yet we will never be in the starting blocks.....Whilst We continue to allow other shooters from other disciplines talk on our behalf we will never be included. What we should be doing is campaigning, demostrating and making our voice heard, there will never be another better time....

 

Dennis Webb

 

Hello Dennis,

 

Remember me? I was the BICTSF President who invited you onto the Board to try and set up Compak Sporting selection shoots in the UK. That, or a variance, was the discipline that would've been the most appealing to the ISSF instead of trap or skeet. Sporting itself has no chance of being selected instead of the current disciplines due the wide variance of targets. Huffhuff hit the nail on the head about this in an earlier post. However, it seems that the forecast demise of Double Trap as an Olympic discipline is not to be and is being re-vitalised for the 2016 Olympic Games, so you've even less chance of having your wish granted.

 

Going back to your brief time on the Board you had the golden opportunity given to you to work from the inside instead of bleating about it from outside. Sadly you chose after five minutes to revert back to the latter on your now defunct website Claysporter.com or whatever the name was. I do hope that you're not going to try the same thing on this forum.

 

Phil Rowley

[Zapp]

So long as you do not tell lies you can say what you want. At this moment in time we still have freedom of speech.

 

You are General John Sedgwick and I claim my £5

[BlaserF3]

You are General John Sedgwick and I claim my £5

 

Aww, come on, you know I'm not him, but tell me your bank details and I'll send you 50 pence

[Salopian]

Isn't it frightening when you see all these millions of £'s costs.

How is it all explained that we are in a 'double-dip' recession with high unemployment but worse of all young couples unable to get on the property ladder, builders on short time or redundant and we hear about this vast waste and 'consultants' dipping in the trough of plenty. Sadly at the end of the day we the taxpayer will pay yet again.

[smallbore]

...... However, it seems that the forecast demise of Double Trap as an Olympic discipline is not to be and is being re-vitalised for the 2016 Olympic Games, so you've even less chance of having your wish granted.

 

The demise of the Olympic shooting disciplines is certainly on the cards, if we do not support them. DT150 (Double Trap) numbers are very small and it cannot be long before it goes. On the rifle and pistol side, 25M Rapid Fire Pistol is not so well supported. The Olympics is commercial and any event that does not attract spectators is really of limited interest. Other more exciting events (like BMX) attract the younger crowds and have an element of risk to the athlete. That is why the ISSF is changing the shooting discipline finals into 'knock-out' style procedures and building up the excitement with commentary being done through the shoot-offs.

 

I think the question on Sporting as an Olympic discipline has already been answered and I believe correctly cited consistancy of target and delivery.

 

On the comment regarding being paid per hour, I can reveal that for normal Rifle and Pistol Judging/Refereeing at anything lower than National level, we are lucky to get a sausage roll for a day's range control and sometimes mileage. At my last National event about 10 days ago, I received petrol money and £10 per day for a total of £60 for three days 'volunteering (08:00 through 17:00 x 2, plus 08:00 through 14:30 for the third day). For clay refereeing, it averages £60 for a full day's ref'ing, but then these are at commercial establishments with commercial entry fees.

 

Whatever our thoughts about cost of running events, for the Olympics we must support our sport and not try and destroy it. Other people are trying to get their sports into the limelight and as soon as the Olympics stops a discipline, UK Sport's funding will evaporate. I hope we can all support all the Shooting events at the Olympics and Paralympics for the next 10 weeks.

 

Regards

 

Bob M