mr williamson Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Nobody has suggested they're suitable for 50 yards. 3rd post suggests exactly that if you read it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr williamson Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 Using 7.5s isn't wise or responsible? So, say i - when using 1oz of 7.5 shot - kill 9 out of 10 pigeons and miss 1, and someone else - using 30gm 5/6 - kills 7 pigeons out of 10 and wounds 3 that fly away. Who is the more wise or responsiblb its irresponsible end of. See what would basc advises then? How can you honestly beleive 7.5s are suitable for pigeon and crow shooting . Any 12bore shell will kill at close to medium ranges but that dont make it suitable. Imop thats rubbish to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted August 5, 2012 Report Share Posted August 5, 2012 I was shooting 7.5 today and only got ten pigeons.Only one of them was a runner and it got another barrel and came to a stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I mentioned having been a keeper 32 years as I believed it may illustrate enough experience to express an informed opinion. I suppose being a Qualified Instructor and Coach, running a shooting school and being a referee in several disciplines doesn't count for much either then? It is all about using the correct tool for the job. If there are extreme pheasants such as on my previous estate then a 36 or 42 gram in a 3 or 4 shot was the tool for the job. There a 32 gram 5 or less was the wrong tool for the job but the one the ill informed, cost conscious, or less experienced Guns tended to use. Quite honestly the number of wounded birds was disgusting and a situation which made me seriously question the whole shoots validity. I am very pleased no longer to be involved as such situations bring our sport in to disrepute and challenge my personal conscience. On another estate I have seen birds which the Guns consistently described as almost out of shot and the highest they had ever seen. When tested with a laser range finder the few which were positively "pinged" were mostly between 28 and 40 metres high, two of the very highest ranged at 79 m and 82 m and were described as "stratospheric". One of them was shot, but then again even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. I would not doubt a 28 gram 7.5 will consistently kill pigeons at up to 25 yards in the hands of a competent shot. I absolutely refuse to believe the same cartridge will consistently kill crows at 50 yards or that attempting to do so could ever be seen as humane or morally acceptable. There is a table which shows the energy needed to kill varying quarry species and the energy delivered by differing shot sizes at several ranges and the minimum number of pellet strikes required to do the job. It used to be in the excellent Eley Shooters diaries. It doesn't include .50 cal. but it is definitely enough. Agreed I refered to the penetration data in a similar post a while ago. I've been unable to locate it to publish on here, but from memory a 6s pellet penetrates about twice as much as a 7 1/2s pellet, I simply can't remember the figures. I use 7 1/2 & 9s for clays. 6s or 6 1/2s for pigeons; yes I can knock em down at some range. 5s or 6s for pheasant, depending on location. 5s for crows & rabbits. All in felt / fibre wad. The laws of physics dictate the energy that a pellet of given mass will carry and then impart into its target; energy = penetration. A further consideration is the Antimony content of the shot if useing clay loads on live quary. Antimony is added to the lead to make the shot harder. The lead used in pigeon / game cartridges is generally of low antimony content to allow the pellet to deform slightly on impact to do more damage and assist in obtaining a humane kill. As responsible shooters we have a duty to kill humanley. Many years ago McF and I experimented with 7s, 7 1/2s and 8s; after a short while we sacked off the idea. Yes we hit them, but the priest was doing overtime, and time wasted catching pricked birds. Its already been said that its tools for jobs. You can use the correct fitting spanner and complete the job profficiently, or use an adjustable spanner to get the job done, but we all know that an adjustable spanner is the tool of choice of a rag man. webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 its irresponsible end of. See what would basc advises then? How can you honestly beleive 7.5s are suitable for pigeon and crow shooting . Any 12bore shell will kill at close to medium ranges but that dont make it suitable. Imop thats rubbish to be honest. It was a BASC officer that got me into using 7.5s for shooting pigeon. For years i was fixated on using 32gm 6 and would use nothing else if i could help it. I can honestly believe that 7.5s are suitable because i shoot enough pigeons every year with them and my eyes see what i'm shooting. There have been a few that i've been shooting with that are surprised at the kills from 7.5s - but several pellets on target (which is the main advantage of smaller pellets) means a dead bird. I think someone on here wisely mentioned 'pattern fails before penetration'. As ever, a bird hit with the outside of a pattern is probably going to be wounded. By the way, you didn't answer my aforementioned question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 It is all about using the correct tool for the job. If there are extreme pheasants such as on my previous estate then a 36 or 42 gram in a 3 or 4 shot was the tool for the job. There a 32 gram 5 or less was the wrong tool for the job but the one the ill informed, cost conscious, or less experienced Guns tended to use. Quite honestly the number of wounded birds was disgusting and a situation which made me seriously question the whole shoots validity. I am very pleased no longer to be involved as such situations bring our sport in to disrepute and challenge my personal conscience. Respectfully bows his head in agreement and salutes your honesty. I would not doubt a 28 gram 7.5 will consistently kill pigeons at up to 25 yards in the hands of a competent shot. I absolutely refuse to believe the same cartridge will consistently kill crows at 50 yards or that attempting to do so could ever be seen as humane or morally acceptable.T to do the job. Correct again, 7.5's are excellent on decoyed pigeon not so good on days they flirt around without committing, I personally favour 7's and 6.5's. There is a table which shows the energy needed to kill varying quarry species and the energy delivered by differing shot sizes at several ranges and the minimum number of pellet strikes required to do the job. It used to be in the excellent Eley Shooters diaries. It doesn't include .50 cal. but it is definitely enough. I don't personally place too much faith in tables drawn up 50 years go with such things as so many pellets per bird blah blah, there are just soooooo many variables such as plumage, where you hit the bird, the shot velocity etc, as to render these near meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Agreed A further consideration is the Antimony content of the shot if useing clay loads on live quary. Antimony is added to the lead to make the shot harder. The lead used in pigeon / game cartridges is generally of low antimony content to allow the pellet to deform slightly on impact to do more damage and assist in obtaining a humane kill. As responsible shooters we have a duty to kill humanley. webber Shooting is full of old wives tales and this is certainly one of them. Antimony does have on affect on pattern density, it may even contribute to the specific weight of each pellet in an almost perceptible way, it may well do wonders for the marketability of a shell, etc, but to compare the deform characteristics of tiny shot to that of bullets is at best, well plain bizarre. It just doesn't happen. Not saying shot doesn't deform, just that 3 minutely deformed size 6 in one partridge shot at 30 yards, compared to 3 near perfect hard clay quality pellets (that would have presumably penetrated deeper) would have no measurable difference. The latter would be better if anything. I would qualify the above to say that in 30 years of pigeon shooting I've personally found fast hard shot such as found in clay loads to be superior to so called game cartridges which tend to be dearer but do come with nicer pictures. Edited August 6, 2012 by Hamster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 I think some peoples range estimation is some what inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdSolomons Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 How dead do they need to be? If you can fold them consistently to 40 odd yards with 7.5s whats the problem? If you feel better using a 5/6 then go for it. I use clay loads on the odd time I get the chance now, and its not due to cost; I have 5000 assorted Sterling game and pigeon specials sitting at home, but I choose not to use them as the pro ones do the job already. Use what your happy with, but dont tell me Im irrisponsible/daft for shooting 7.5s. Not many of them get up, most are stone dead before they find the floor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted August 6, 2012 Report Share Posted August 6, 2012 This debate moves from section to section on the Forum and is in danger of joining the list with, ".177-v-.22" , "shooting foxes with an air rifle", "shooting insurance", etc. Each to their own, please just ensure that quarry is despatched humanely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts