SPARKIE Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I was out with a mate the other day who was shooting pigeons. he had called the police to create an incident report so they knew he was shooting on a patch of land near houses, (police asked him to do this when shooting there)when a police officer decided to come check up on a my mate who was shooting his excuse was he was there to make sure he was who he said he was and no laws were being broken.....now 3 days before they had been to see him on the same bit of land.....we got into a discussion over the carrying of your shotgun cert and written permission slip. i told them i dont carry mine ever and there on the firearms register and some of my permissions i just have verbal permission as im open ticket ive never worried about written permissions....the police officer was arguing that he can take the guns until you prove who you are and that you have written permission....and that a phone call to the farmer isnt sufficient. my question is this do they have to have a permit or licence to take or even touch your firearms or shotguns or do they have to be a firearms officer. Can any pc plod just confiscate them as they reconned they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 I seem to recall reading to the effect that any PC can take possession of your firearms if they so wish, something on your ticket IIRC says you have to surrender it if instructed to as well I think - without looking. I was instructed by my FEO that I had to have written permission - but that may have been him taking things too far in the interests of quickly resolving issues if they are called out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 There is no requirement anywhere in law to have written permission. (I have nothing in writing). Any police officer can seize firearms if he believes you do not have authority to possess them, the only way of proving that is an original FAC/SGC. If they believe you are using them illegally they could take them (ie shooting where no permission). If you were out with guns and no FAC/SGC you could get into a lot of trouble obstructing an officer from seizing your guns. This is why I have my FAC/SGC either with me or in the car when I take my guns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yes a police officer on duty can take or handle firearms. They might wish to get their own internal 'specialist' team to do it (i.e firearms unit), but a police officer on duty can legally do so. Not sure which law it is, but if you don't show your certificate when requested by a police officer, he/she can confiscate your firearms, it's then down to you to produce your certificate. So yes, plod was right. You do not need written permission (permission is permission whether in writing or just verbal), however written permission is easily carried upon your person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Just to add (from the Firearms Act 1968): • Section 48: Production of certificates. (1) A constable may demand, from any person whom he believes to be in possession of a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of this Act applies, or of a shot gun, the production of his firearm certificate or, as the case may be, his shot gun certificate. (2)Failure to produce may result in Firearms being seized and detained Edited July 30, 2012 by bedwards1966 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPARKIE Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 cool cheers for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossy835 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 if the police asks for yours guns, you must hand them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 sooooo, how do we know a copper is a copper when he turns up in a field in uniform and not some nut job dressing up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 sooooo, how do we know a copper is a copper when he turns up in a field in uniform and not some nut job dressing up As normally these fancy dress costumes have no material around your bottom !!! Be wary of any policeman dressed as such , WPC's dressed like this is ok tho !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shotgun sam Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 If they confiscate your guns can you ask for your Scope, Bipod, Sling or any other add on to be removed? If your guns are forfeited can you sue the police for theft of your Scope, Bipod, Sling or any other add on not returned/destroyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 It would be unlikely that if the police were seizing your guns that they would allow you to strip accessories from it. Whilst in their possession they have a duty of care over your property. If they lost or damaged your property then you would be entitled to compensation. Assuming you legally own the guns and they were taken and for some reason you couldn't have them back - they remain your property. The police would release them to a nominated RFD and they would be sold. You'd get the money as they are your property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 sooooo, how do we know a copper is a copper when he turns up in a field in uniform and not some nut job dressing up If they turn up in a Citroën saxo and have no warrent card, I would think twice before handing anything over :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 This is why I always take my original tickets with me when out shooting.It's not the fact the Police have the authority to take your guns,it's the damage they can do to them while in their 'care'.Unless you have a camera on your person at the time of confiscation,it is your word against theirs if your expensive Beretta is returned with dents and scratches all over the woodwork.By the time everyone on the shift back at the station has had a play with it,who knows what state it's going to be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyb79 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Surely this is also good reason not to inform them in the first place? If they are going to come and cause grief regardless it wasn't really worth the phone call! As for certificates etc, I believe that it is for you to show that you are legally entitled to hold the guns, but up to them to prove you aren't entitled to be on the land, written permission or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiss.tony Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) bin stopped many times only once did the firearms cops evan want to look at the guns i think more cause they were better than the ones they had or nosey you pick i allways carry tickets just in case makes life so much easyer. And all ways better to carry paper work with you just for peace of mind Edited July 30, 2012 by swiss.tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDown Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I always feel a bit of concern when this subject comes up. The law is very old and doesn't take into account technology. I'll deal with the pure law first: As posted already you may be required to produce your certificate and failure to do so would allow seizure of your firearm(s) by a constable. With regards to land the police do not have to prove your lack of permission (difficult to prove a negative). If they suspect that you do not have permission and you provide no evidence to the contrary then offences/arrest will be considered. The reality (I hope): While you are required to produce your certificate by law the details are also held electronically which is easy to check - I would hope a police officer would do this if asked and they were satisfied of your identity. This SHOULD satisfy the lawful possession of the firearm(s) but as stated there remains a power of seizure without the certificate. Again I would hope that seizure would not happen if the details had been checked. Permission does not need to be written and a phone call to the landowner should be sufficient. Hope I haven't confused you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I was out with a mate the other day who was shooting pigeons. he had called the police to create an incident report so they knew he was shooting on a patch of land near houses, (police asked him to do this when shooting there)when a police officer decided to come check up on a my mate who was shooting his excuse was he was there to make sure he was who he said he was and no laws were being broken.....now 3 days before they had been to see him on the same bit of land.....we got into a discussion over the carrying of your shotgun cert and written permission slip. i told them i dont carry mine ever and there on the firearms register and some of my permissions i just have verbal permission as im open ticket ive never worried about written permissions....the police officer was arguing that he can take the guns until you prove who you are and that you have written permission....and that a phone call to the farmer isnt sufficient. my question is this do they have to have a permit or licence to take or even touch your firearms or shotguns or do they have to be a firearms officer. Can any pc plod just confiscate them as they reconned they could. If you fail to produce your cert when asked then a constable can seize the firearms. In practice I doubt this happens much, or at all, these days as everything is computerised so they can easily ceck up on you. Taking guns off people would be a paper work nightmare these days and I'm sure any copper with half a brain would want to avoid that at all costs. There is no requirement to produce a letter of persmission and failing to do so is not grounds for him to sieze the guns. I suppose he could arrest you for trespass with a firearm but I doubt he would do that until he'd established with the landowner that you were there without permission. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 if the police asks for yours guns, you must hand them over. Not if you can produce your certificate. Unless there was another very good reason (like you were doing something dangerous with them) then the police have no authority to take your guns. In fact, if they are doing a pre-planned revocation they will come prepared with a magistrates warrant to make sure everything is legit. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 If they confiscate your guns can you ask for your Scope, Bipod, Sling or any other add on to be removed? If your guns are forfeited can you sue the police for theft of your Scope, Bipod, Sling or any other add on not returned/destroyed They can't decide to forefeit your guns. They have to give them back when you produce your cert. Only a Court can order them to be forefeit. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 The following is based on experience with police in non-firearm encounters, and being mates with a few Police officers. It has no real evidence to back it up. I would think that if you passed the attitude test then they wouldn’t confiscate your guns. If you’re well mannered, if you accept that they are just doing their job, if you don’t give them any reason to suspect you of crime – then, you’ll probably just have a short chat and then they’ll leave you be. If the police thought it was a genuine problem they’d send armed response or they would approach in a very careful manner. If someone in full uniform is shouting and waving to you from the edge of a field the chances are they know it’s just a waste of everyone’s time, but they have a legal obligation to attend a firearms related 999 call from the public. It might get a bit sticky depending on how the conversation goes. It’s possible/likely that a well read shooter will know more about the firearms law than some of the police they encounter, but it’s cold comfort getting a formal apology after spending a night in the cells after being arrested under the 1864 Being a smug *** act. All that said, it’s probably in your best interests to keep some ID and a copy of your licence in your gun slip or pocket just in case you get stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Robl, you're correct in that attitude is usually the deciding factor - but it's not a guarantee, as there are some police out there who try to do people for everything they can, and often don't know the law and pretty much make it up as they go along, and who won't admit it when they get it wrong. But yes, usually if your fine with them they'll be fine with you. If the police wanted to seize your guns then, as already been mentioned, they can't dispose of them. If you personally can't get them back (i.e you don't have the appropriate certificate) then a RFD can get them, or I think that a shooter with the correct certificate would be fine. As to removing the scope and other attachments before the gun is taken off you, I suspect that would be down to the individual officer, and related to why they were being seized. If ever I had it happen I'd do my best to photograph the guns (would be a problem at night) in detail before handing them over, as I've heard that the police storage facilities have ruined many good guns (something about the guns being thrown into a damp storage area without any care). If you can get good photographic evidence that the guns were not rusty, scratched and dented before the police took them then you might have some success when claiming for the damage to them. They must give a receipt for guns confiscated. I wonder if that should include the attachments (thinking that many scopes cost more than the rifle they're on, having a receipt saying it's an xyz gun with an xyz scope might give peace of mind, I wouldn't be happy to get a gun back to find that some bent copper had helped himself to the scope). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDown Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Not if you can produce your certificate. Unless there was another very good reason (like you were doing something dangerous with them) then the police have no authority to take your guns. In fact, if they are doing a pre-planned revocation they will come prepared with a magistrates warrant to make sure everything is legit. J. Not quite. There are two other powers which allow seizure - evidence of a crime and Breach of Peace. If it has got to the point of being asked for your guns it is probably best not to argue it right there as producing your cert has nothing to do with the other two powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 There are some very good responses on this thread and as usual there are some not so! As has been pointed out they can verify now via the PNC that the person holds a ticket - BUT this does not mean that you are that person - if you have no verifiable photographic ID or another means of positively identifying yourself (for example being known with a PNC or CRO number - in which case you are unlikely to have a ticket anyway (But not impossible) then without your ticket, there is still a power of seizure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 What if your fac is in for veriation ? It's still valid so I can still shoot but it's in sheffield so I carnt produce it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robl Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I would guess the sensible thing to do it to take a photocopy of the cert, or perhaps some other form of Photo ID. Even just a copy of a passport or driving licence would be better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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