Cost of making your own ammo??

[kent]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/05/09/ read this ,i did see one on this site about a chap that cleans after 1000 rounds and he was a benchrest shooter champion

and i am sure you found WD40 making guns rust on another site also. there are always mavericks, its not the norm thats what you need to remember when you come across this sort of stuff. i have shot with a few who use rifles cometitively they have never cleaned BUT its just a teeny, tiny minority. like i say you cannot replicate a state of dirtyness and shooting well is all about repeatability. No doubt there will be an odd bore with a fault that is exposed when clean and improved when filled with copper and crud

[kent]

yes we shot a comp with them in june ,tell me after you clean your barrel and go back to the range how many sighters do you shoot before you shoot your comp card and as for the same degree of dirtyness ( copper fouling ) what you will find is when your groups start to tighten up about after 30 rounds your groups will stay tight until your rifling needs cleaning ,what happens is after about 250/300 rounds the groups start to wonder this is when you give your barrel a good clean and the crown,and start over again with the fouling set up , i will try and upload some photos for you i have taken of the groups settling in

For a competitive shot thats a non question as you have a given number same as everyone else there. the main reason a centrefire dont shoot when clean is it aint properly clean and the copper and crud has just been moved into worse areas. The norm in f-class etc is two sighters with one convertable, dropping one shot from your allocation

[pigeon pete]

here is 2 photos of 2 targets shot ,the first one is after the barrel has had about 100+ rounds through it and won a comp @100m 5rounds with home loads,

and after a few weeks i shot another comp but we had a bad rain storm so i cleaned the barrel out as i could see water in the bore !!

i put 20 rounds of FMJ home load down range jut to start the fouling up ,then on target 1 i put 5 rounds in

on target 2 i put 5 rounds in with my comp loads and it target 2, then on target 3 the same

target 4 was some hunting loads i use ,just to see who these were doing ,

then target 5 back to comp home loads ,so the barrel had 45 rounds through it to get the group were i want it ,it will now stay like this until about 200/300 rounds when she starts to open up and the i will just run 1 or 2 dry patches down the barrel

[pigeon pete]

and i am sure you found WD40 making guns rust on another site also. there are always mavericks, its not the norm thats what you need to remember when you come across this sort of stuff. i have shot with a few who use rifles cometitively they have never cleaned BUT its just a teeny, tiny minority. like i say you cannot replicate a state of dirtyness and shooting well is all about repeatability. No doubt there will be an odd bore with a fault that is exposed when clean and improved when filled with copper and crud

nope WD40 i was told use by someone on the range !!! never again like i said it rusted out a old k98 i had ,and as for faulty barrels there must be a lot on are range ,some lads or paying !000s for them ,mine was £600 ,so southern gun must be selling crud barrels ,well the proof is on the photos and i will and many others are going this way ,try it you might be pleasantly surprised ,and one more thing dont worry about cleaning your flash hole out as this dont make one bit of difference ,proven by rail gun shooters

[pigeon pete]

just to make things clear for safety ,i do clean the chamber and action and rifle ,just not the bore ,and forgot ive never cleaned my cz.22 in 7 years ,shoots a dream

[kent]

here is 2 photos of 2 targets shot ,the first one is after the barrel has had about 100+ rounds through it and won a comp @100m 5rounds with home loads,

and after a few weeks i shot another comp but we had a bad rain storm so i cleaned the barrel out as i could see water in the bore !!

i put 20 rounds of FMJ home load down range jut to start the fouling up ,then on target 1 i put 5 rounds in

on target 2 i put 5 rounds in with my comp loads and it target 2, then on target 3 the same

target 4 was some hunting loads i use ,just to see who these were doing ,

then target 5 back to comp home loads ,so the barrel had 45 rounds through it to get the group were i want it ,it will now stay like this until about 200/300 rounds when she starts to open up and the i will just run 1 or 2 dry patches down the barrel

 

stop being silly these aint even approved comp targets and frankly they aint even very good

[pigeon pete]

stop being silly these aint even approved comp targets and frankly they aint even very good

 

the first target is a tightest group comp we shot in are club the second one is just a zero target ,did i say it was an approved target ?? i think your giving me a bit of negativity here kent ?? you seem to slate everything i say on this forum ?? ive giving the proof and please prove me wrong,all iam trying to do is help a fellow shooter who want to get into reloading ,trying to save someone lots of time and his hard earn cash ,have you got any targets to show us ? forums are here to help them ,its a shame there are a few that spoil it ,well every forum has one anyway back to reloading ,here is another TEST target i found ,4 rounds shot @100m 3 rounds through the same hole and i dropped one !

[kent]

 

 

the first target is a tightest group comp we shot in are club the second one is just a zero target ,did i say it was an approved target ?? i think your giving me a bit of negativity here kent ?? you seem to slate everything i say on this forum ?? ive giving the proof and please prove me wrong,all iam trying to do is help a fellow shooter who want to get into reloading ,trying to save someone lots of time and his hard earn cash ,have you got any targets to show us ? forums are here to help them ,its a shame there are a few that spoil it ,well every forum has one anyway back to reloading ,here is another TEST target i found ,4 rounds shot @100m 3 rounds through the same hole and i dropped one !

#

 

Sorry i seriously thought you were just on a wind up mission, with the previous mention of WD40 creating rust and all. try and bear in mind when you talk about what does and does not go on in a sport you dont know anything about like benchrest and benchrest smiths people tend to assume Comp means a proper comp not a few guys down the club plinking. This event when its 5 shots through one calibre size hole is termed a screamer, you wont win a comp with it but you could reasonably expect to be awarded best group . Benchrest is scored on the best average. Three shots through the same hole happens from time to time, 5 is a different matter. 5 shot groups are measured pretty small though so one mans screamer is another mans group.

I have never posted pictures here as i am an old ludite but there are plenty others on here who have seen what i can do first hand at my home ranges .

[pigeon pete]

#

 

Sorry i seriously thought you were just on a wind up mission, with the previous mention of WD40 creating rust and all. try and bear in mind when you talk about what does and does not go on in a sport you dont know anything about like benchrest and benchrest smiths people tend to assume Comp means a proper comp not a few guys down the club plinking. This event when its 5 shots through one calibre size hole is termed a screamer, you wont win a comp with it but you could reasonably expect to be awarded best group . Benchrest is scored on the best average. Three shots through the same hole happens from time to time, 5 is a different matter. 5 shot groups are measured pretty small though so one mans screamer is another mans group.

I have never posted pictures here as i am an old ludite but there are plenty others on here who have seen what i can do first hand at my home ranges .

we have over 100 members in are club and we take part in other club comps we have shooters from all over and shoot in all aspects of shooting ,this is not just a bit of plunking my findings are from 7 years on the range with one rifle and its tuning ,i also look after other people and there shooting ,ive been a RCO for 5 years ,yes we all have are differences,but iam trying to help others and there's no need to have trolls trying to get one up on you ,if i was some young whipper talking bull i would back down , i have spent lots of cash and time to get to this and i still say don't clean your barrel ,i shoot along side benchrest shooter,and take in all they tell me ,ive looked into wind ,loads ,temps you name it ,have a good day

[gixer1]

 

 

there are a lot who will disagree with your cleaning practice- i am certainly one of them and just about every bench rest shooter on the planet

 

Yet I also know a lot of people who never touch a cleaning rod and thier rifles shoot ragged holes at 100yards no problem...

 

It's what you feel comfortable with - if it ever gets to the stage I spend more time cleaning my guns than I do shooting them then I'll pack it in altogether!

 

Regards,

Gixer

Edited August 11, 2012 by gixer1

[pigeon pete]

Yet I also know a lot of people who never touch a cleaning rod and thier rifles shoot ragged holes at 100yards no problem...

 

It's what you feel comfortable with - if it ever gets to the stage I spend more time cleaning my guns than I do shooting them then I'll pack it in altogether!

 

Regards,

Gixer

great comment

[henry d]

And secondly, Is it really worth all the effort for some fox control and long range vermin shots?

 

After building up a good load and spending time punching paper, I found that my trust in my homeloads made me shoot better, before then I wouldn`t shoot a fox at 150 and now I am confident to shoot foxes to 250+ and crows to 200+. Not earth shattering by any means and I probably could have got that kind of performance out of factory ammo, but these loads are flatter and better IMHO.

[hillmouse]

Advantages are more apparent in tuning a round to your barrel once you know what you are doing rather than on costs.

I bought my loading kit over 20 years ago and it all still works well, RCBS Rockchuker and dies.

 

You will get plenty help and advice but best bet is get someone you trust to show you the techniques, be methodical, never guess and NEVER copy a load somebody tells you is fine even though it exceeds Max. data. Accuracy is not totally dependent on velocity and fastest is very often not the best. Work loads up from say 2-0grn below listed max (For a .22-250) and try 0-5 grn increments test shot in batches of 3 rounds and see the difference it makes to grouping. Pick the best and tinker OAL and jump to get tack drivers.

 

Knowing you are using a round tailored to your barrel does increase confidence and the first step to accuracy is consistency.

[SPARKIE]

I very rarely clean the barrel on my .22-250 it as said takes a while to settle in again...i dont want to be messing about shooting targets and wasting reloaded ammo checking zero. i want to be able to take the gun from the cabinet and shoot foxes first shot without having to check zero everytime.......if the guns shooting well while im out im happy to wipe the externals and put it back in the cabinet knowing that it will shoot the same next time out the cabinet. i beleive when it comes to guns and scopes you get what you pay for my set up is a tikka t3 laminate with optilock rings and S&b 8x56 and pes 12 mod and only if i miss a target does it get checked then its usually me.

[gixer1]

I think a lot of people may get a shock at how good and consistent factory ammo is nowadays....

 

And with the selection you get I bet there is a factory load to match just about every rifle...

 

Regards,

Gixer

[kent]

I think a lot of people may get a shock at how good and consistent factory ammo is nowadays....

 

And with the selection you get I bet there is a factory load to match just about every rifle...

 

Regards,

Gixer

 

it certainly shocked me a while back when i couldn't reload due to my home being in bits. I think the key to this is increased use of bullet heads from the likes of Nosler etc. In truth and without pointing any fingers some wouldn't know a good load if they fell over it. The norm of shooting three shot groups at the range over 100yds and picking the tightest group is pretty meaningless IMO and is only realy of use in checking for pressure indicators

Although we all started that way

Edited August 12, 2012 by kent

[pigeon pete]

I very rarely clean the barrel on my .22-250 it as said takes a while to settle in again...i dont want to be messing about shooting targets and wasting reloaded ammo checking zero. i want to be able to take the gun from the cabinet and shoot foxes first shot without having to check zero everytime.......if the guns shooting well while im out im happy to wipe the externals and put it back in the cabinet knowing that it will shoot the same next time out the cabinet. i beleive when it comes to guns and scopes you get what you pay for my set up is a tikka t3 laminate with optilock rings and S&b 8x56 and pes 12 mod and only if i miss a target does it get checked then its usually me.

yep must agree there ,mind you do get the odd green wellie noobs that stand there pushing the rod up and down up and down ,then when they get back to range they have to fire a few shots to fowl the rifling in ,i seen a lot of this at bisley and a few keyboard warriors

[hillmouse]

it certainly shocked me a while back when i couldn't reload due to my home being in bits. I think the key to this is increased use of bullet heads from the likes of Nosler etc. In truth and without pointing any fingers some wouldn't know a good load if they fell over it. The norm of shooting three shot groups at the range over 100yds and picking the tightest group is pretty meaningless IMO and is only realy of use in checking for pressure indicators

Although we all started that way

 

I have found this gives me a good idea of which load to refine. I am interested to hear what other indicators of a good load you can suggest.

I would also like to stress this isn't a dig but a genuine enquiry.It's a method I have used and it has worked for me but very open to other methods and always willing to learn more.

 

edited to add: yes I too used factory rounds when loading wasn't possible due to domestic situation and factory rounds are none too shabby and more than adequate for normal use.

Edited August 13, 2012 by hillmouse

[kent]

 

 

I have found this gives me a good idea of which load to refine. I am interested to hear what other indicators of a good load you can suggest.

I would also like to stress this isn't a dig but a genuine enquiry.It's a method I have used and it has worked for me but very open to other methods and always willing to learn more.

 

edited to add: yes I too used factory rounds when loading wasn't possible due to domestic situation and factory rounds are none too shabby and more than adequate for normal use.

 

 

the fact is any well constructed load with a bullet the gun likes will shoot at 100yds regardless of quite a fair difference in small to medium variations in powder fill or type, which shoots the tightest is much down to luck or the mind telling the trigger finger this is the one - BEFORE ITS ACTUALLY FIRED!

 

Very,very few factory chambers are cut to be jump fussy with normal hunting bullets. take the .243win for example you will not get anywere near the rifling with a 55 grn bullet till its to the stage of falling out the darn case on handling. Yet many get good results with them, simply loaded to the recomended COL.

 

standard deviation and velocity can be measured at 100yds though. If your rounds are deviating 50 fps and over then its a forgone conclusion that at extended range they will not be as predictable as those with a sub 10 fps deviation as trajectory will be effected creating vertical differences in any group, it also leads to a constant vibration from the level performance or "harmonics" if you like. If you think you always get more velocity with more powder then you are also going to find out this isn't always the case and that extra 0.5 grn aint gonna make things faster unless its all burnt and bunt efficiently each time. If your getting substantaly more speed then your data suggests then your also pushing the pressure so the chrono is a very usefull tool in load development. without a chrono reference you stuck to calculate your dope anyhow.

 

Primer choice, different case prep can all have effects on standard deviation, but which ones improve it? which make it worse? also which make no difference at all? testing one thing at a time will tell you this. The result is no time wasted in the loading room and no counter productive proceedures. not all rifles are the same though one might like lapua brass another Norma, fedral or remmington etc. powder choice likewise. data comilation is paramount so keep notes

 

if you realy want to test a load by shooting it then you realy need a few potential good loads and an ideal day over the longest test range practical 300yds being good testing range for most non competitive shots with .223 rem and up . A box of say 30 of each candidate and your cleaning kit and a few home made wind flags will then sort the wheat from the chaff. Yes i did write "cleaning kit" if you gun just dont shoot clean then the damage is already done by your lack of cleaning and you want an equal test bed for each load. Record the average group size not the best as the best can be a fluke "you might have actually pulled a wayward shot onto target as well as off target" to produce that bragging group. Yes it aint always the rifle or the load that at fault!

 

When we talk of harmonics, jump lengths and .2 grns difference of powder fill in facory rifles shot at only 100yds from deer calibre rifles its quite frankly a crazy misleading indicator and i will put money on the better shooter producing better or at least equal results with some off the shelf qualty ammo.

[gixer1]

the fact is any well constructed load with a bullet the gun likes will shoot at 100yds regardless of quite a fair difference in small to medium variations in powder fill or type, which shoots the tightest is much down to luck or the mind telling the trigger finger this is the one - BEFORE ITS ACTUALLY FIRED!

 

Very,very few factory chambers are cut to be jump fussy with normal hunting bullets. take the .243win for example you will not get anywere near the rifling with a 55 grn bullet till its to the stage of falling out the darn case on handling. Yet many get good results with them, simply loaded to the recomended COL.

 

standard deviation and velocity can be measured at 100yds though. If your rounds are deviating 50 fps and over then its a forgone conclusion that at extended range they will not be as predictable as those with a sub 10 fps deviation as trajectory will be effected creating vertical differences in any group, it also leads to a constant vibration from the level performance or "harmonics" if you like. If you think you always get more velocity with more powder then you are also going to find out this isn't always the case and that extra 0.5 grn aint gonna make things faster unless its all burnt and bunt efficiently each time. If your getting substantaly more speed then your data suggests then your also pushing the pressure so the chrono is a very usefull tool in load development. without a chrono reference you stuck to calculate your dope anyhow.

 

Primer choice, different case prep can all have effects on standard deviation, but which ones improve it? which make it worse? also which make no difference at all? testing one thing at a time will tell you this. The result is no time wasted in the loading room and no counter productive proceedures. not all rifles are the same though one might like lapua brass another Norma, fedral or remmington etc. powder choice likewise. data comilation is paramount so keep notes

 

if you realy want to test a load by shooting it then you realy need a few potential good loads and an ideal day over the longest test range practical 300yds being good testing range for most non competitive shots with .223 rem and up . A box of say 30 of each candidate and your cleaning kit and a few home made wind flags will then sort the wheat from the chaff. Yes i did write "cleaning kit" if you gun just dont shoot clean then the damage is already done by your lack of cleaning and you want an equal test bed for each load. Record the average group size not the best as the best can be a fluke "you might have actually pulled a wayward shot onto target as well as off target" to produce that bragging group. Yes it aint always the rifle or the load that at fault!

 

When we talk of harmonics, jump lengths and .2 grns difference of powder fill in facory rifles shot at only 100yds from deer calibre rifles its quite frankly a crazy misleading indicator and i will put money on the better shooter producing better or at least equal results with some off the shelf qualty ammo.

 

You base most of your theories on range work - when the most common reason for rifle ownership is sporting shooting - for this reason most people zero a centrefire at 100 yards - saying this procedure is meaningless is a silly statement - it's the "check" for most sporting rifles and also the reason it is used in DSC. and it's not a case of picking the "tightest" group, you take an average.

 

if is shot 5 targets with my rifle and all are within an inch of each other and on the point of aim - then I can pretty much make a safe assumption that I can point and shoot or use minimal hold over on a calm day out to 250-300 with the round I use.

 

All this waffle about factory loads being "awful" for sporting use are laughable - if you think this you are doing something wrong as I have never owned a rifle that didn't shoot factory ammo to a good standard - in any caliber.

 

Why make it more complicated?

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

Edited August 13, 2012 by gixer1

[al4x]

Interestingly I was reading a sporting rifle test on ammo the other day Gixer and the test ammo was all within a 1/1000th of an inch, gives a slight indication of how poorly assembled some of it is. I reload mostly due to cost and for sporting purposes if it does half inch groups at 100 I'm happy and don't tend to faff about as whatever you hit certainly can't tell the difference. If I was bench rest shooting or competing I'd try more variables but I have a couple of loads that just work in my rifle and kill things and that is what its all about.

[gixer1]

Interestingly I was reading a sporting rifle test on ammo the other day Gixer and the test ammo was all within a 1/1000th of an inch, gives a slight indication of how poorly assembled some of it is. I reload mostly due to cost and for sporting purposes if it does half inch groups at 100 I'm happy and don't tend to faff about as whatever you hit certainly can't tell the difference. If I was bench rest shooting or competing I'd try more variables but I have a couple of loads that just work in my rifle and kill things and that is what its all about.

 

I fear someone will still come back and say "1/1000th - thats awful" - i think people paint a picture that could put people off shooting and even reloading - the people who claim to have "been there, done that" seem to over complicate things, you could pick up most rifles and slot a factory round in it and - as long as it is zeroed - put a hole in a 3" target...I just don't buy that is you don't measure the wieghts/lengths/powder/case wall/annealing/neck stretch to the width of a pube that your rifle will be "fit for the bin"

 

have a look on youtube at the guy consistantly hitting steel buffalo targets at 900-1000yards with a muzzle loader - lets see you measure that reload accurately! bet he'd look at you all confused if you mention all the bumph that people worry about...

 

why people need to shoot any fox/rabbit deer at over 300 yards is beyond me as there are very few foxes/Deer/Rabbits in the UK that you cant get within 300 yards of, regardless of ground! we don't have a lot of "open plains" here....

 

If you want to clean constantly and shave 1/4" and spend 3 days preping for a shot and 0.5 seconds taking it - Great - but don't poo-poo those that want to close the bolt, pull the trigger and repeat...I'd bet this is the most common occourance of the two!

 

Regards,

 

Gixer

[hillmouse]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

 

I have used my method and off a bench, with an Uncle Buds Bull bag and knowing when it was me who messed up more often than not, so dicounting that shot, I have used the 3 shot group method effectively to find loads which group tightest at 100M, which I take as a working method. I have seen 0-5 grn make a difference between a one holer and a 0-75" best group.

 

I then develop the one holer/ best group (as long as it is workable).

 

Then I move on to 200, 300 and 500m by which time the weather and I are more variable than any load.

 

Obviously this is keeping all other things equal and one very good point made is only ever change one thing at a time when developing loads.

 

I have a couple or 3 loads for the .22-250 that serve me very well and can take the left nut off a gnat at 250 yards and seriously damage the middle of a fox at 350 yds if absolutely pushed to do so, which normally I am not, preffering to wait for it to be dumber another night.

Ditto my .243 plus deer loads that cover anything out to 200 yards as a rare maximum.

 

I know these are consistent and accurate for my needs.

[pigeon pete]

the load i use for the range with my 223 is

 

win brass full length sized & trimmed

rem benchrest 7.5 primer

21gr VIT N133

69gr SMK BTHP

full mag length

 

 

for hunting ive worked up a load so i dont have to move the MOA on scope

just load and shoot and the POI is the same within 3/4" @100m

same as before but using a 50gr splizer FBSP

 

the range load will shoot 5 round ragged hole @100m & the hunting rounds will shoot a 1MOA @100m

this saves a lot of work at the reloading bench and having to adjust scope or using mildots & I DONT CLEAN MY BARREL UNTIL ABOUT 200/300 ROUNDS or until the group starts to open up

Edited August 13, 2012 by pigeon pete

[kent]

Yes i fess up i do most of my testing as range work, paper is sooo much better for telling you whats happening than just having a crack live quarry. I am a member of precisely Nil target clubs and shoot at no official ranges and havent for a few years. It aint exactly difficult for me to test something as i have over 1000yds of safe ground from the front or back of my house and i fully understand how hard it is for some to only have 100yds club ranges to shoot on as i have been in that situation. Even when i shot at Diggle regulary you couldn't always get access to the range you wanted due to weekend comps and needed to have the appropriate number with RCO to shoot midweek etc

 

DSC lowland 100yds zero test has very little to do with this thread as it has nothing to do with cost of loading your own ammo or load development