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illegal as standard


ballzy1978
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Every time this subject comes up there are a load of people writing that the Police couldn't / wouldn't / shouldn't nick a shooter just for having a 12ft/lb+ rifle.

 

Well I've got bad news for you, they have done it before. In fact in one case I know of the testing labs took the sub12 PCP apart and removed the valve return spring which made it go over power. The details were all in their report, but the owner was still found guilty as the judge directed the jury that the rifle was "capable" of over 12ft/lb.

 

The police are under pressure to reach arrest targets, they're trying hard not to get made redundant, and some of them just aren't very nice.

 

Keep your rifles chronoed, and keep them below 11ft/lb. The extra power won't make a lot of difference in the field but could save you a lot of aggro.

Edited by Catweazle
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I'm sure you're right about the 5 years in the clink being a rarity if ever situation. But would the conviction not cost you your SGC/FAC?

I think even a caution would, I think if they would push the caution and confiscation but there are experts in the field who can assist.....http://www.brownsexpertwitness.co.uk/expert-witness.html if they aren't working for the prosecution.

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 "In fact in one case I know of the testing labs took the sub12  PCP apart and removed the valve return spring which made it go over power.  The details were all in their report,  but the owner was still found guilty as the judge directed the jury that the rifle was "capable" of over 12ft/lb."

 

 

Every rifle in the world is capable if they start stripping it, changing and removing things. Thats stupid. My car is capable of going over 70mph, my bread knife is capable of killing someone, does not mean we will. He must have had a bad lawer, and not appealed.

 

 

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"In fact in one case I know of the testing labs took the sub12 PCP apart and removed the valve return spring which made it go over power. The details were all in their report, but the owner was still found guilty as the judge directed the jury that the rifle was "capable" of over 12ft/lb."

 

 

Every rifle in the world is capable if they start stripping it, changing and removing things. Thats stupid. My car is capable of going over 70mph, my bread knife is capable of killing someone, does not mean we will. He must have had a bad lawer, and not appealed.

 

The difference is that the law does not say you are a criminal if your car is "capable" of over 70mph. Yes, the law is stupid, but we have fat chance of changing it when the airgun industry won't fight our case.

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It's all really confusing, I would really like basc and firearms to work on a standard test procedure so we all know where we stand.

 

In a day where people are getting off with drink driving as the officer didn't have his hat on straight blar blar I can't be leave any airgun conviction would stand up in court with a good lawer. No std procedure, so many variables, different between forces, no tolerance for testing, no Machine calibrations etc etc. it's all very hit and miss.

 

My chrono and my rfd,s disagree, should I flip a coin?

 

It's stupid. We need a piece of paper, stating black and white what we need to do, what pellets it will be tested with, what machine so we can stay within the law. I bet so many guns can be put over 12 with the right pellet. But no one knows how they are tested.

 

Anyone with a firearm cert (1 or 2) should be allowed air un restricted, make life easier

 

I not long had a air gun, but it's so scary cos I don't know that am 100% legal. My rfd says I am, but how did he test it, will it be same as police. If he's wrong thats all my firearms gone...

 

 

well over here in eire to have air-rifle any lb requires fac then theres no dispute be it 12lb or 30lb now yes that would cause big dispute but surely in some ways then that wouldnt cause agro with cops provideing your liscense covers that rifle you got. ?

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With regards to the 5 years slammer quotes, the penalty for an unlicenced FAC rifle is one year - not five. Five years are reserved for the really naughty boys who possess illegal firearms - a totally different fettle of kish.

 

It should be taken into consideration that although confiscation is the minimal end result of an unlicenced firearm, plod would be committing a crime themselves if they handed one back to an unlicenced person. You could even find an occasional sympathetic copper who might be liberal enough to return a marginally over the top one in extenuating circumstances has his hands tied.

Edited by Dave-G
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Firstly, the fact that the first 'friend' had his house raided dose raise the possibility that he wasn't entirely legit' - I'm sure depression isn't normally followed by coppers breaking down your door.

 

Secondly the fuzz only seized the rifle that was over, you don't say whether he spent the next 5 years with a very strong grip on the soap, so I assume no further action was taken.

 

I am of the opinion that anything more than a slap on the wrist and a confiscated weapon is very unlikely for otherwise law abiding shooters. All these 5 years in the clink stories seem a little bit like urban myths to me, although you still don't want to find yourself in that position in th first place.

 

Yes he was legit, very legit, nothign wrong with him at all, just an overzealous anti copper who knew he had guns and liked making life difficult for him.

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With regards to the 5 years slammer quotes, the penalty for an unlicenced FAC rifle is one year - not five. Five years are reserved for the really naughty boys who possess illegal firearms - a totally different fettle of kish.

 

It should be taken into consideration that although confiscation is the minimal end result of an unlicenced firearm, plod would be committing a crime themselves if they handed one back to an unlicenced person. You could even find an occasional sympathetic copper who might be liberal enough to return a marginally over the top one in extenuating circumstances has his hands tied.

 

And what is an unlicensed over 12 ft lb air rifle if it is not an illegal firearm if it is in the possession of somebody with no FAC and it not being listed on the non existent FAC?

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The gun has to have the potential to produce more energy than 12 foot pounds.

 

Well wave goodbye to all your guns then. They ALL have the potential to fire a pellet at +12ftlbs, you just need to put the right pellet and oils in there.

 

(Remember you're measuring the pellet, not the gun)

 

You're wrong, but just out of interest, what should we be measuring?

 

The measure is of muzzle energy, and that legally is not allowed to be over 12ft/lb, that's the law. If they (the police) chrono your gun with your super pellet at 20ft/lb then they can do you for it, simpla as that.

 

This is stupid. You can't measure something with such variables and ANY scientifically orientated person will see the utter stupidity in this.

 

BASIC Physics here:

  • The air gun transfers X amount of potential energy on a pellet. (keep in mind that this is a reasonably consistent amount of energy)
  • The potential energy is converted to kinetic energy and transferred to the pellet - it begins to move.
  • The energy it has been given is lost through friction (heat) and sound as its pushed along the barrel, until it exits. Here, the bullet is measured for speed and what remaining energy it has.

So the police will do you for what remaining energy the pellet has, not what the consistent output of energy the rifle exerts...

 

As I said, you're measuring the wrong thing. If you add oil to the barrel, or swap your ammo - the rifle will still exert the same amount of energy on the pellet, it's just that the variables have changed for the pellet travelling down the barrel, but not ones which affect the rifle on such a scale.

Edited by Billy.
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I think this discussion is wavering between ‘what should be’ and ‘what is’.

We have heard that some people have received a ####ing for overpowered weapons, but there’s been no mention ( that I recall ) of prison sentences, loss of licences or any other long term problem.

The few stories that are mentioned seem to me to be just individual episodes of larger stories, so it’s hard to take them as conclusive.

 

One serious question though, if anyone knows.

If the police confiscate an air rifle do they test it as a matter of course?

If a chap was found to be depressed in hospital and temporarily lost the SGC I would expect the police to take the guns (especially if all in the same cabinet or room) but I’d be surprised if they bothered to test them before putting them away – unless they were looking for evidence of a crime.

 

I would be amazed if the CPS prosecuted someone for having a 12.5ftlbs rifle if there wasn’t something else going on too.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't be suprised if they handed out cautions or warning and confiscated weapons.

Although, unless desroyed, the guns could be returned to someone with a valid cert for them - like a gun shop.

Edited by Robl
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The question of the power is determined by the pellet weight, and the speed it's moving at over the chronograph.

The police can and do change things to get the results they want, they may not always do this, but they can and have done.

Whether the pellet speed is changed by dieseling, putting in different pellets, running the tank down to a certain level, it makes no difference. What matters is the speed the pellet comes out of the barrel at, not what causes that.

The question comes about what is reasonable for the police to do in order to achieve the results to make the rifle 'capable' of exceeding the limit.

 

If anyone is getting worried that the police might try putting different pellets in to get your rifle tuned to 11.9 to go over the limit, the solution is simple. Get it turned down to a sensible limit. If turning it down to 10 is an issue, stop and think about it - does 2 ft lb's really matter?

Robl, I'm not having a go at you, but you seem to take the view that the police will only do people if they have a real reason to, and that someone slightly over the limit would be fine unless the police had a real reason to have a go at them. While this may sometimes be true, the police are known to have a go at everyone in an many ways as possible, shall we say there are 'good cops' and 'bad cops'.

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That’s fine bedwards, different opinions are all good.

 

I’m generally of the opinion that the police are not the enemy.

In nearly all situations where someone complains about the police it only take a small amount of digging to find a larger story or some significant gaps in the story.

 

That’s not to say that sometimes the police have to go through the motions, the recent example with BigJohn for example, but I believe in the end it was settled well.

 

I agree there are good and bad coppers.

There are also good and bad people.

But there is also a huge IPCC, and if someone really feels they have been done wrong they would be winning a complaints case in court, not just talking about it on the t’interweb.

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It is immaterial as to whether you agree with what's being measured Billy, and you may well be right, but the Law is definitive and the definition is pretty straightforward.

 

"Air rifles which produce muzzle energy higher than 12 foot pounds and air pistols higher than 6 foot pounds at the muzzle, are classed as firearms and an FAC is necessary to possess them legally. If the gun is below the stated figures then no certification of any kind is required to either, buy, possess or use them. The onus is on the owner of the gun to ensure that it does not exceed those power levels. If the gun does exceed those levels, even if the owner is completely unaware of the fact, then the owner is guilty of illegal possession of a firearm." Courtesy of 'The Law in England & Wales relating to Firearms, Shotguns and Airguns' which while not being the complete relative section, purports to have taken the bones from the relative section.

 

Air rifles which produce energy higher than 12ft/lbs ...at the muzzle, are classes as firearms and an FAC is necessary...If the gun does exceed those levels, even if the owner is completely unaware of the fact, then the owner is guilty of illegal possession of a firearm.

 

All fairly succint, and utterly disregards personal opinion.

Edited by -Mongrel-
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And what is an unlicensed over 12 ft lb air rifle if it is not an illegal firearm if it is in the possession of somebody with no FAC and it not being listed on the non existent FAC?

 

It's an unlicensed section 1 firearm. Unlicensed possession of a section 1 firearm is subject to 1 year jail.

 

Illegal firearms (pistols/machine guns etc are section 5 firearms)... amongst others. Unlicensed possession subject to 5 years jail.

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You boys might want to try reading this...

 

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php?618934-Full-house-search.-15-Police-Officers.-6-of-which-armed-response-unit.-1-van-3-cars!&p=5626794#post5626794

 

Now remember the owner had doen nothing wrong, nothing at all, none of his guns were removed for testing on this occasion, but if they were and one had been even 0.1 of a ft lb over....

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I would like to think that a common sense approach would exist, please don't mock.

 

Like others have said there's a huge difference between something clearly modified and something that has just crept over because of a pellet type.

 

Yes it's an offence but believe me it isn't as black and white as some of you think, common sense and discretion depending on the circs.

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This is briefly. what happens when a gun is submitted for testing... The lab opens the accompanying file and sees what's required, these days there is a set routine of tests conducted such as outstanding ballistic matches and the like, the weapon is test fired through a crono around 5-10 times with different ammunition and the results recorded. There is no tampering however if the gun has a method of turning up the power as on some pcp rifles and is easily accessible and looks to have been tampered with then I would request it is tested with the power turned up in addition to the first round of tests.

The lab completes the report that gets sent to the officer investigating who in turn decides if there are any offences and if so will pass the file to the cps for charge.

Should u have an over the limit rifle and are charged then your defence solicitor will no doubt order those tests repeated by another lab of his choosing who invariably repeat the tests and from experience the results won't differ. If the gun is 0.5 of a ft lb over I can't see the public interest to charge but u would lose the gun as to return it would be an offence of supplying a sec1 firearm to someone without a licence. You could probably have it put on a licence if u already had one. I do not know of anyone being prosecuted for having an airgun over the limit unless it was well over the limit.

The starting point at crown court for possessing a firearm without a licence is 5 years. The judge can award whatever sentence he likes after all he is the judge.

There is no better way of seeing if the gun is capable then to actually fire it and diesleing etc are ruled out as anomalies.

Normally police won't take and test the gun unless they have a good reason but that's not to say they can't seize it and test it if they decide its prudent.

 

 

 

Yes, at least 2 users on THL!

 

 

yes, if the measured enery reads over 12 foot pounds, with no matter what pellet the lab uses, you get done, end of. We have had this discussion on here before. What you have to remember is that the law is so loosely written they could with very little effort find most if not all of us guilty. Why?

 

The gun has to have the potential to produce more energy than 12 foot pounds.

 

That is a quote from the very act! So if they take your gun in, tinker, use a pellet, voila it has demonstrated the potential to go over 12 foot pounds, You in court, nasty man, up to 5 years in jail.

 

Please remember there is no standard procedure for testing, no standard equipment specified nor standard ammunition specified, they can and do test with any and all pellets and may also tamper to get a prosecution. It has allegedly happened before and until we can get a standardised test procedure, equipment and ammunition it will happen again. You have to use an approved machine to get an evidential breathalyser test, one that is calibrated to a known standard.

 

No such luck in firearms testing!

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The above sounds like common sense dare I say it.

 

I can't see any reason why the gun can't be released to an RFD so it can be de tuned then given back? If it's only marginally over. I have to say I wouldn't just bend over and lose a £500 rifle for the sake of 0.5ftlb

 

Is there any case law on this as that is what defines most real world situations, or is everyone getting their knickers in a twist over nothing?

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The above sounds like common sense dare I say it.

 

I can't see any reason why the gun can't be released to an RFD so it can be de tuned then given back? If it's only marginally over. I have to say I wouldn't just bend over and lose a £500 rifle for the sake of 0.5ftlb

 

Is there any case law on this as that is what defines most real world situations, or is everyone getting their knickers in a twist over nothing?

 

Once its on ticket it stays on ticket. Proving it in a lab as a sec1 means it will remain on ticket.

There's case law on pretty much everything these days so I guess so but cant say I spend much time on airguns.

If the gun was bought brand New and was over then you could claim from the manufacturers who would also be breaking the law.

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This is the problem I have.

 

Surely the gun isn't on ticket until it has been registered as a firearm?

 

What would happen if I take my HW100 in for a service and it's found to be over the limit? It doesn't get confiscated and destroyed because it's now a firearm, surely it's adjusted and returned?

 

It's a wonder any of us leave the house with the amount of laws that can be broken lol, still I'll persevre :)

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Yes- try another pellet before you panic. If it is still over it is quite esy to vary the power. Speak to Hull.

 

 

 

 

Good advice. Test it again. If over take it the gunshop for a service and tell him its slightly ove on occasion. He will fix it and hand it back. Happens a lot. If you've had it a bit then a service is probably a good idea anyway as they normally run better with a proper lube and tune by a professional

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