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clay shooting lesson today = selling my new gun!


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Yes I do have a vested interest, as I work for BASC ' Hands UP'

 

The difference, as I am aware is that a CPSA 'instructor' is trained primarily to fault find, where as a BASC Coach is mentored to Coach. Without doubt the further levels of training that the CPSA provide are far more specific to disciplines and superseed to a certain extent the BASC Award in this fact. The CPSA deliver training courses for the various grades of instructor and Coach and BASC bases its award on the NVQ system - you learn in the workplace and are assessed in the workplace.

 

APSI - Have some excellent coaches, some of the best! In fact many of our more experienced coaches are APSI members. What I'm not so sure about is how they assess their coaches - it has been in the past, rather subjective - maybe someone could enlighten us?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply Peter.

 

When I started shooting about 5/6 years ago I had lessons with a CPSA level 1 instructor. Most of what we did concerned safety and learning to hit fairly straightforward targets, mainly on the skeet range. After a couple of months I moved on to shoot a few other disciplines with varying results.

 

Anyway, to cut a long story short I soon started to become more interested in wildfowling and pigeon shooting and my clay shooting took a back seat.

However, now I'm thinking of going back into clay shooting and was wondering the best route to take as regards to lessons.

 

Would I be better with a BASC coach, a CPSA discipline specific instructor or a top competition shooter?

 

On my day I can shoot ok but I struggle with concentration and consistency. Is that something a BASC coach can help with?

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The first part of any Coaching should, in my mind be the safety briefing, the Coach has to ensure not only the Clients safety , but his own and that of others in the vicinity.

The lesson then should move forward dependant on the "Clients" experience, and requirements/wishes. If the Client requires discipline specific Coaching then a Coach able to undertake the task should be identified. Both BASC and CPSA have websites to help you choose the correct Coach.

 

For my sins I am a BASC Coach and a CPSA Instructor, what is the difference, well that is subjective. we have had many debates on the meaning of "Coach" "Instructor" .

I am not the best shot in the world and never will be, but I am confident that I can take Clients through to a very competent level, I also believe I am honest enough to know when to move the Client onto the next level with someone with a higher level of ability than I.

 

Sportsmen (and Women) have coaches for their many varying needs, if concentration and preparation is something that someone requires find a coach that offers that tuition, there are a couple that pop up regulary on the Forum. There are Skills Coaches, and Coaches for the Mental preparation side of sport, there are also Coaches for how to present yourself in ,choose what need and go for it.

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Would I be better with a BASC coach, a CPSA discipline specific instructor or a top competition shooter?

 

Just my 2 penneth.If you realy want to improve at a given discipline then a CPSA instructor would be your best option. If you just want to improve generally then either a BASC coach or CPSA instructor could assist.

 

Be wary of top competition shots, not all are good instructors/coachs.

 

You pays your money.......

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so a BASC coach dosen't have to be a good shooter just make sure people know which end goes bang to start with ? So with reference to my earlier post "that most BASC coaches are just qualified to stop kids and grandma's shooting each other at game fairs" was spot on the money !

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Who said that a BASC Coach does not have to be a good shooter?

 

What I was honest enough to state was that I am not the best shot in the World, I did not say i could not shoot.

 

If your shooting is as good as your assumptions I would suggest you take up another sport, or get a good coach

 

ps on Edit

 

I did state that I am BASC and CPSA qualified, please do not single one organisation unless of course you have an agenda. If so state it.

Edited by bakerboy
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i dont't shoot OT very often. it's a good dicipline but i find it hard work as i don't have a perazzi or a bmw x5 so i am seen as a peasant ! i'm only in lowly B class

 

love

 

landboy

 

DT? So do i take it you have never had a lesson?

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Basc and Cpsa can coach someone to win big? Can they? You are having a larf.

Most are wearing loud skeet vests with big signs on the back, presumably in case they get lost, or they wear the matching skeet vest sets, like the shooting version of a Masonic lodge.

I once overheard a basc/cpsa muetant giving a lesson, who when asked what the 28grms on the cartridge stood for, replied, the amount of powder.

Best that they stick to game fairs and newbies where their skills are not challenged too much.

 

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I think we have a lot of work to do if this is how we are perceived in the field.

If the wrong information is being given to "Newbies" it would be best to not be at the Fairs. If you start with bad habits they will stay with you for a long time.

 

I suppose by wearing the Loud Skeet vests we are putting ourselves in the firing line and not hiding behind anonymity, standing up and being counted, it can't be all bad.

 

I once overheard a basc/cpsa muetant giving a lesson, who when asked what the 28grms on the cartridge stood for, replied, the amount of powder. Which of course you corrected? :hmm:

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I have seen some shocking coaching and the trouble is it has been with BASC or CPSA coaches. Once I took a friend’s 13 year old shooting and a BASC coach was in the stand with his student on a high tower, the student could not hit it, the BASC coach could not hit despite 15 tries. His excuse for lack of success being the target was stupid/hard, I got the 13 year old to hit it after 3 shots, it was not a hard target. I would never have the audacity to charge for lessons but he did, was utterly clueless and it was meant to be an advanced lesson.

 

The problem is the CPSA and BASC certified these idiots in the first place so what kind of certification program do they have that allows them to pass and stay a coach. Unless you get rid of all these bad coaches and just leave good ones you are never going to alter the perception knowledgeable shooters see in them as a group. It’s no good saying they are mentored or have to pass this or pass that because it did not stop the bad ones I have seen qualify in the first place.

 

If it was just one coach I would ignore it but it’s been quite a few I have seen now and no matter how many good ones you claim to have I hold no stock in the qualification only the coaches individual reputation means anything to me.

 

Being asked by someone charging another shooter £65 an hour to teach an advanced lesson how do I hit that target did it for me.

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Well the comments have been thick and fast, so something is obvously not right or could be better.

 

It hurts me read what has been said, as I am proud to be a Coach/instructor for both organisations, I even wear the lairy skeet vests with my name embroidered on so there is no getting away :lol: .

 

Lets hope that those who can make a difference within BASC and the CPSA read what has been said and respond.

I will never defend something that is wrong, I will only ever try to correct it. I have I believe a contructive outlook on life not destructive outlook and only ever want to improve things.

 

I take on board everything that has been said, and hope that in some small way I can help make a difference, even if only being vocal.

 

Terry

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Who assesses the assessors! Take the cpsa for example. the academy, what a joke, small group of people making a nice living off the back of everyone else. It is run by a closed club always know in the past as the gang of 4. It has been relaunched many times and the only thing to change is that the names of the gang. Now led by one who was previously kept out of the club who is not up to it. They are not interested in quality of instructors, only quantity of courses put through in order to hit funding targets of new instructors. Retired or unemployed so nice little earner. They know that poor shots like and want to wear a badge. There is no track on any of these jokers once they are let out on their own to pray on newbies (because anyone other than a new shooter would recognise their faults instantly). Worse ones are those who talk confidently about rubbish or those who shout at the client when they cannot hit the bird or those who do not have good memories and contradict the **** that they talked the time before.

To top it off, there are insured as part of their membership package.

Occasionally a good one comes through.

Apsi are worth their salt. Could be why the likes of RBSS and Churchills only Apsi. High paying clients sniff ******** quicker.

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Every sport has a "grass roots level" and an "elite level " be it mass market sports like football where you have a sunday league team or a youth club football team at one end and the premier league at the other or ours where clearly you have the Wilsons and the Digweeds at one end and the us mere mere mortals at hay balers at the other.

 

Obviously in any sport as you(if you) progress up into the rarified atmosphere and get to the higher echelons of acheivement you need a better standard of coach to match your increased abilities -but there is a pyramid structure going on here and you need a lot of people qualified at the the simple task of introducing people to the sport. just to keep the number of people involved in the sport constant let alone try to grow it.

 

I'm not qualified to instruct in this sport (yet ) so i will give an example from my past where before I left school I qualified as a fencing coach with the national body. I was a good club level fencer but no fitness fanatic. because I didn't have international stripes on my arm didn't mean that i didn't have more than sufficient skills and knowledge to get people started in the sport and bring on beginners. One of my early pupils I very quickly realised had a high level of innate sporting ability and i quickly put him in the hands of someone that could accelerate his training .... he went on to represennt GB at youth level.

 

The point i'm trying to make is that in a sport such as ours you need these people to bring people into the sport -otherwise the sport will dwindle both at grass roots and elite level if they are coaching beyond their ability and (over)charging while doing it thats a different matter.

 

On the matter of the skeet vests I think the reasoning is due to its like the wearing a tie while instructing- the point of the thing is to ensure that the instructor apear official /dominant in his realationship with client. In most cases the instructor will not know a new client and ensuring dominance in your relationship is key (until at least that point when you would trust them with a gun and ammunition).

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Obviously someone has an axe to grind about BASC and CPSA coaches. No one has answered my question about APSI - what is their assessment criteria?

Correct me if I'm wrong 'How many of the Olympic Coaches are former Olympians themselves'? Not all of them I would guess.

 

Like I said before ' we have all seen dreadful behaviour from certain coaches from certain organisations. Without the names of the Coaches I wouldn't be able to tell you if they are actaully BASC coaches or not - the skeet vests that our Coaches wear are a rather common place - indeed Eley Hawk's skeet vests are exactly the same design except they have Eley on the back and not BASC Coach. If a BASC coach only used the knowledge they gathered whilst learning to coach in the BASC system, they would not be able to coach to Olympic Standards - then again BASC has never attempted to produce coaches who can coach to olympic standard - I dont think we have olympic Pheasant Shooting?

 

There are many BASC coaches who are, as I have said involved in other coaching schemes, such as APSi and CPSA, and I know that some of these have and are invovled in competition coaching.

 

I suppose with any qualification new or old

  1. there are always those people who do not have it
  2. do not want to have it
  3. claim (probably do) to have supperior skills
  4. are maybee being asked to prove their competence and dont want to
  5. Have observed percieved lack of skills in another - we have all seen this

The result is resentment

 

I would just like to re-interate that BASC coaches are assessed to very high standards and BASC recieves nothing but plaudits from the general public. BASC does not run the coaching program to make money, I can assure you of that! I cant remember the last time I recieved an official compalint about a BASC coach

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Has anybody done all 3 courses? ie BASC/CPSA and APSI.they would be better placed to comment and compare the 3.

Many moons ago when on gardening leave I did the APSI basic course over 2 days.I would say it was thorough/logical. I had no intention of coaching although that was an integral part of the course.I would say the best coaches are those that have done alot of it and have experience of coaching.CoachingManner/teaching are all separate but essential components.Double gunning/Loading/shooting off wrong shoulders(so you know what a beginner feels like again) gunfit/pattern plates meant quite a wide range was covered...but to be a good coach means doing lots of coaching.And if/when folk want to specialise/get very good a specialist coach in the individual discipline is needed.

Ive always thought BASC coaches were aimed at bringing in new blood/entry level;CPSA for Clays in the main.APSI tries to look at all shooting.

I do not know what the 'ASsessment criteria of APSI' is.On day one there were a number of scenarios around gun handling and safety and if failed there was no day 2.To become an APSI member meant doing another course in advanced tuition,I do not know if that automatically meant you qualified but I do recall you neede to be coaching as a profession to take that next course. I cannot recall who owns/runs APSI but I was certainly under the impression it was a commercial operation and the course was certainly not cheap.

The course I attended was taken by 3 people,Paul Bentley(ex Olympic skeet GB) Chrissie ..( ex GB Ladies Skeet)&Holland & Holland instructor) and Ed Watson ex West London and writer in SG.

I cannot compare this to BASC/CPSA as have not attended any of their courses,I did take my sons to a BASC gamefair beginners line and was grateful that BASC coaches had given up their time to introduce youngsters...good on them.

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Thanks Dougall a very calm and matter of fact post. If you are looking for a Coach to take you to the next level, or discipline specific or competition level, then nothing is going to beat experience, irrespective of qualifications. However to make an informed decision about which coach to choose at least the qualifications can give you piece of mind that the coach should be safe and know what he is doing, particularly for newcommers to the sport.

 

It is so important, particularly for newcommers that their first experience is a good one. If they have a bad experience on the first time they pull the trigger, it might be their last shooting experince. This is one of the reasons that many Coaches are dead against the 'Have go' type events where (sometime) potentially not enough time is spent with the client to give them that great introduction to the sport which is going to fuel a life times passion.

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It is so important, particularly for newcommers that their first experience is a good one. If they have a bad experience on the first time they pull the trigger, it might be their last shooting experince. This is one of the reasons that many Coaches are dead against the 'Have go' type events where (sometime) potentially not enough time is spent with the client to give them that great introduction to the sport which is going to fuel a life times passion.

 

True but much better than the "in a field" with a typically boyfriend, husband, father scenario I know several women who had this one off experience and decided they didnt like it, it hurt (32g No6 from an ill fitting gun) and put them off for life..... For these situations a "person" who can select the correct equipment, still amazed by the number of people who do this professionally yet don't have a LH stock gun a short stock gun or a smaller gauge gun for clients to use, put the person at ease and then get them to hit a few clays and enjoy the experience is needed this may be different to getting to C/B class shooter to AA

 

My Mum was one, fired here fathers gun in field in the late 60's didnt have interest at all and was quite "anti" until i took her to a decent ground where she was put at ease by a CPSA L1 coach, given the correct advice and hit 5/5 on the first stand! and tyhen 4/5 on the second! absolutely loved the experience. WEnt to another ground some months later for similar thing she didn't like didn't feel safe and wouldn't go there again. (not sur ebut i think BASC coach)

 

ITs horses for courses I have lessons with a guy who is a much better shot than me and on one stand at a local shoot i hit a clay he missed 5 times (i got 1/5) does that mean he's ****/can't coach? NO it means he's human.....I wouldn't have hit it once without his input....

Edited by HDAV
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(not sur ebut i think BASC coach)

 

It could have been any one, but you have put BASC against the problem, best not to name and shame without the facts.

 

Everything you had said before was balanced and fair.

 

As a BASC Coach I have a 9mil garden gun for children to shoot static targets and get the bug, .410 - 28g - 20g - 12g in varying guises and stock lenghts and "OH YES" left handed availble in varying gauges as well.

 

Terry

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I don’t have an axe to grind as I would lump the APSI in with all the other coaching badges and I certainly don’t single out just BASC.

 

The point that I was trying to make was that coaching badges only mean they will be insured and should (I have seen some fail at this too) be able to teach you the basics in safety and shooting.

 

If you need more advanced coaching then look at the individual coaches credentials and not rely on just a badge.

Some people assume just because they have a badge they must know what they are doing, from what I have seen this is not always the case.

 

 

ITs horses for courses I have lessons with a guy who is a much better shot than me and on one stand at a local shoot i hit a clay he missed 5 times (i got 1/5) does that mean he's ****/can't coach? NO it means he's human.....I wouldn't have hit it once without his input....

 

 

You're right it doesn’t mean he cannot coach on other targets but obviously he is doing something fundamentally wrong on that target if he cannot hit it once in 5 shots. If he then tries to coach you to hit it & he does not know what he has done wrong himself how does he know his advice is correct. Missing 2 or 3 is being human, missing 5 in a row is a lack of understanding on what that particular target needs.

 

You can hit it once with blind luck, but correct technique gets you hitting it consistently with the odd miss due to user error.

 

We all miss so I am not expecting 5 out of 5 but a coach trying to teach you to hit a target that he cannot hit at least a couple of times himself just doesn’t stack up in my book.

Edited by timps
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As a BASC Coach I have a 9mil garden gun for children to shoot static targets and get the bug, .410 - 28g - 20g - 12g in varying guises and stock lenghts and "OH YES" left handed availble in varying gauges as well.

 

Terry

You are rare Terry, I have also met a CPSA coach who was coaching a national level shooter who could not lend me a gun.......He was trying to sell me lessons and i decided after meeting him i wasnt going to bother....

 

This particular incident was down to the type of person/situation not the instructors badge on his vest. No one can say ABC trained coaches are good and all XYZ are bad. Like driving instructors, solicitors, doctors there are some great ones, some average ones and some poor ones. At least with someone who has at least done a course they should know the fundamentals and be safe.

 

 

 

We all miss so I am not expecting 5 out of 5 but a coach trying to teach you to hit a target that he cannot hit at least a couple of times himself just doesn’t stack up in my book.

This wasn't a lesson but I happened to see him at a ground and he asked how i did on the high crosser I hadn't shot it yet so joined him for that stand after 2 misses he gave me pointers and i hit it, he knew exactly what i was doing wrong, it was quite funny to see him miss it (intentionally I dont know) as he is very good shot (this was a tough target). At the end of the day he is a much better and accomplished shot than I am, can teach me loads and i always feel I leave a lesson with more than i arrived. I learnt more in 30 minutes with this chap (not firing a shot) than in 3 hours of lessons elsewhere.

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