Is much accuracy lost with semi-auto .22lr compared to bolt action?

[Hamster]

That's a sweeping statement! How about backing it up with some useful info.

 

Go on...?

 

Well I'll have a go, first off you state in practical terms.............a lot of us use our .22 rimmie for sniping long distance rabbits in the head, a half decent bolt action (almost any) will easily have the innate accuracy of delivering 10 shots or more inside an area coverable with a 10 p piece at 50 yards or more, some will do better. Few semi's (if any) can match this. In standard form a Ruger 10/22 may struggle to keep things inside a tennis ball group, I know this from experience.

 

The bit about not having to work the bolt aiding accuracy is pure conjecture and does not overcome the fact that semi's are less accurate than bolts.

 

In my experience the recoil (shuffle disturbance ) from a semi is much more noticeable than that of a bolt action, the latter barely even moves a tiny bit, so as I said plain wrong.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Hamster

[Gregthegreat]

I can see where you're coming from Hamster but you're missing the point of the orginal question which was is much accuracy lost. You're also missing the point of my post which essentially talking about grouping.

 

Your sweeping statement has annoyed me to be honest which is why I'm taking the time to reply in detail.

 

Well I'll have a go, first off you state in practical terms.............

I stated nothing. I posed a question.

 

alot of us use our .22 rimmie for sniping long distance rabbits in the head, a half decent bolt action (almost any) will easily have the innate accuracy of delivering 10 shots or more inside an area coverable with a 10 p piece at 50 yards or more, some will do better. Few semi's (if any) can match this. In standard form a Ruger 10/22 may struggle to keep things inside a tennis ball group, I know this from experience.

I don't doubt the poor ability of some 10/22's, Ive had experience of one and I was shocked at how poor it was but it is a huge generalisation to say that few, if any, semis are capable of that grouping you state.

 

The bit about not having to work the bolt aiding accuracy is pure conjecture and does not overcome the fact that semi's are less accurate than bolts.

Conjecture??!! Perhaps you could re-write the rule book of marksmanship and let the World know as clearly you have better ideas. The very basis of repeating a series of shots to produce the best possible group relies upon each shot being just that - a replication of all other shots in the series. Here's a quick link to one of the first websites when I Googled 'Marksmanship' for you http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/uploads/guides/146.pdf In fact, have another. This time from America http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/four-fundamentals-of-mark.shtml Whilst I'm at it, here's a video from the US Marine Corps, arguably the leaders in military marksmanship

 

 

In my experience the recoil (shuffle disturbance ) from a semi is much more noticeable than that of a bolt action, the latter barely even moves a tiny bit, so as I said plain wrong.

Yes, quite possibly this is the case.

 

I related my answer to application of grouping - a different perspective which hadn't been mentioned.

 

The statement that it is purely "conjecture" in itself has convinced me that you don't actually have a grasp of what you're talking about.

 

Regards,

Greg.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Gregthegreat

[1066]

a lot of us use our .22 rimmie for sniping long distance rabbits in the head, a half decent bolt action (almost any) will easily have the innate accuracy of delivering 10 shots or more inside an area coverable with a 10 p piece at 50 yards or more, some will do better. Few semi's (if any) can match this. In standard form a Ruger 10/22 may struggle to keep things inside a tennis ball group, I know this from experience.

 

 

I have owned my semi-auto Voere for around 40 years - It groups around 1 inch at 60 yds using Eley HP subsonic . My bolt action target rifle is only marginally better - the limiting factor seems to be the ammunition. I would be amazed if anyone could show me 3 consective 5 shot, 100yd groups of less than an inch using hollow point ammo.

[Hamster]

Hi Greg,

 

In practical terms almost everyone would agree that semi's are inherently less accurate than bolt actions. I used the Ruger 10/22 as an example because it is widely used and reckoned to be one of the best, when tuned in any case. In standard form it may struggle to group inside a tennis ball which means you will miss a rabbits head which is impractical and not funny.

 

I think you tried too hard to offer up an opposing view to that held by the vast majority of knowledgeable shooters, yes I made a sweeping light hearted statement but in hindsight I stand by it, sorry it annoyed you but a lot of your original post is factually incorrect.

 

The absolute best sporting and military arms intended for accuracy above all else are bolt actions not repeaters, so again your assertion that semi's promote a more stable environment with less to do for the shooter is at the very least irrelevant if not also factually wrong.

 

You're lucky I didn't say anything about the bit you went on about recoil absorption from a .22 semi aiding accuracy, that convinced me that you have no grasp of what you're trying to talk about.

 

Don't get me wrong I would love to get a tricked up 10/22 that can group subsonics as well as my CZ but it's not gonna happen, at least not without spending 4 times as much and getting lucky with a specific gun.

 

Regards,

[Hamster]

I have owned my semi-auto Voere for around 40 years - It groups around 1 inch at 60 yds using Eley HP subsonic . My bolt action target rifle is only marginally better - the limiting factor seems to be the ammunition. I would be amazed if anyone could show me 3 consective 5 shot, 100yd groups of less than an inch using hollow point ammo.

 

I don't for a second doubt you, but we're talking generalities here, more often than not semi .22's can't live with bolt gun accuracy. The .22 subs bullet is not considered a 100 yard round, I would be amazed if anyone regularly utilises it for this distance as there are better tools around for that range.

 

I do believe that it must be possible to manufacture a repeater .22 that IS capable of bolt action type accuracy but it would almost certainly involve huge costs in better triggers, better barrels, flawless CNC machining of actions followed by hours of individual guns being blue printed to avoid the bullets being rammed up the spout damaging their heads etc, etc.

[Gregthegreat]

Hi Greg,

 

In practical terms almost everyone would agree that semi's are inherently less accurate than bolt actions. I used the Ruger 10/22 as an example because it is widely used and reckoned to be one of the best, when tuned in any case. In standard form it may struggle to group inside a tennis ball which means you will miss a rabbits head which is impractical and not funny.

 

I think you tried too hard to offer up an opposing view to that held by the vast majority of knowledgeable shooters, yes I made a sweeping light hearted statement but in hindsight I stand by it, sorry it annoyed you but a lot of your original post is factually incorrect.

 

The absolute best sporting and military arms intended for accuracy above all else are bolt actions not repeaters, so again your assertion that semi's promote a more stable environment with less to do for the shooter is at the very least irrelevant if not also factually wrong.

 

You're lucky I didn't say anything about the bit you went on about recoil absorption from a .22 semi aiding accuracy, that convinced me that you have no grasp of what you're trying to talk about.

 

Don't get me wrong I would love to get a tricked up 10/22 that can group subsonics as well as my CZ but it's not gonna happen, at least not without spending 4 times as much and getting lucky with a specific gun.

 

Regards,

 

 

"You tried too hard"? You patronising fool.

 

Hamster, whilst you continue to miss the point of the original question and the point of my original post and you clearly wish to believe your own narrow minded opinion, I will continue to instruct in the specifics of small arms and pass on the wealth of knowledge that I have gained from a collective practical experience within the Royal Marines, let alone my own experience.

 

Again you generalise - "the vast majority"? I didn't realise you had consulted everybody on this forum before posting.

 

I did not say that recoil absorption would aid the shooters accuracy, I stated that there is an argument that it's help in absorbing some of the recoil forces will aid the shooter to settle back on the target with less disturbance. This is not the same as accuracy and you are confused.

 

May I suggest you re-read my original post without creating false statements of your own and consider specifics within it such as "average shooter", "can" and "depending on the skill of the shooter". Once you've done that, take into consideration the original question. If you still believe your own patronising drivel then there is nothing more I can say apart from perhaps consider you may be wrong.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Gregthegreat

[Dekers]

I have both.

 

The difference in accuracy for "general field use" is negligible between my Magtech 7022 and CZ 452 Silhouette.

 

If you want to empty a magazine: 1.7sec for 10 shots I managed at Bisley a few months back, and they all hit the black at 100 yards (Prone, off the Bipod), then so be it.

 

That is not a comparison of accuracy, that is simply fun! :D :good:

Edited September 17, 2012 by Dekers

[Livefast123]

The rabbits don't notice the difference when I use my CZ 511 semi and at the range it regularly manages 1/2 inch or less groups at 50m with RWS Club as long as I do my thing.

 

Having seen 10/22s being used at the club I wouldn't class then as a benchmark to be used for all semi auto's, unless they have had 100's spent on them.

 

All things being equal a bolt action will be marginally more accurate than a semi but unless you are in to measuring your groups with a micrometer then in the real world it makes no difference.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Livefast123

[kent]

Any semi auto firearm needs extra tollerances to correctly funtion with unburned powder residues lubes and waxes build up, otherwise its jambing up a lot. Bullets can be damaged by less than great feeding. If you call 1/2" at 50yds accurate then you won't tell the difference.

[drut]

There was a thread on Rimfire Central http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=369650&highlight=bolt+vs+semi+accuracy going through much the same issues.Personally I think finding a good accurate semi-auto that will reliably cycle subs is notably more difficult than finding an accurate bolt action.I have certainly seen some autos that gave little if any loss of accuracy compared to a bolt action but others not so good.As stated above you generally need a looser chamber for a semi but why they seem to vary more than bolt guns is beyond me,

[Paddy Galore!]

tell you what guys, i'm gonna try both of mine out next weekend weather permitting and compare, 80mtrs , winnie subs, either bench or lorry bed depending what's in the yard, i'll post up the results on this thread if it stays open long enough

[station]

Has anyone shot the Anschutz MSR RX22 -

 

For them to produce a semi .22 they must consider reasonable accuracy is possible !

(or are they just jumping on the S&W / Sig / H&K bandwagon)

[Hamster]

"You tried too hard"? You patronising fool.

 

Hamster, whilst you continue to miss the point of the original question and the point of my original post and you clearly wish to believe your own narrow minded opinion, I will continue to instruct in the specifics of small arms and pass on the wealth of knowledge that I have gained from a collective practical experience within the Royal Marines, let alone my own experience.

 

Again you generalise - "the vast majority"? I didn't realise you had consulted everybody on this forum before posting.

 

I did not say that recoil absorption would aid the shooters accuracy, I stated that there is an argument that it's help in absorbing some of the recoil forces will aid the shooter to settle back on the target with less disturbance. This is not the same as accuracy and you are confused.

 

May I suggest you re-read my original post without creating false statements of your own and consider specifics within it such as "average shooter", "can" and "depending on the skill of the shooter". Once you've done that, take into consideration the original question. If you still believe your own patronising drivel then there is nothing more I can say apart from perhaps consider you may be wrong.

 

Ahh I get it now, you were put out because someone hadn't taken into account that he may in fact be talking to someone with practical experience gained within the Royal Marines, how very dare I. You are right, I don't care for that, even now that I know, I know people with World titles to their name in clay shooting who have and do spout nonsense when it comes to ballistics so you're not making me shake believe me.

 

You were and are fundamentally wrong with some of the stuff you wrote on your first post, the fact you instruct is not my fault.

[Paddy Galore!]

Has anyone shot the Anschutz MSR RX22 -

 

For them to produce a semi .22 they must consider reasonable accuracy is possible !

(or are they just jumping on the S&W / Sig / H&K bandwagon)

no i haven't, are they one of those sub machine gun look-a-likes?

the 525 i had was a bit ugly looking but by god and sonny jesus it was accurate.

[Gregthegreat]

 

 

Ahh I get it now, you were put out because someone hadn't taken into account that he may in fact be talking to someone with practical experience gained within the Royal Marines, how very dare I. You are right, I don't care for that, even now that I know, I know people with World titles to their name in clay shooting who have and do spout nonsense when it comes to ballistics so you're not making me shake believe me.

 

You were and are fundamentally wrong with some of the stuff you wrote on your first post, the fact you instruct is not my fault.

 

Two words. Bell end.

[Hamster]

Two words. Bell end.

 

Stop gazing in mirrors.

[jam1e]

tell you what guys, i'm gonna try both of mine out next weekend weather permitting and compare, 80mtrs , winnie subs, either bench or lorry bed depending what's in the yard, i'll post up the results on this thread if it stays open long enough

Now that would be interesting Gram!

What rifles would you be using?

[jam1e]

Ahh I get it now, you were put out because someone hadn't taken into account that he may in fact be talking to someone with practical experience gained within the Royal Marines, how very dare I. You are right, I don't care for that, even now that I know, I know people with World titles to their name in clay shooting who have and do spout nonsense when it comes to ballistics so you're not making me shake believe me.

 

You were and are fundamentally wrong with some of the stuff you wrote on your first post, the fact you instruct is not my fault.

I value most peoples opinions, including both of you, "Hamster", and "Gregthegreat" But please keep the arguments to pm's or email.

Cheers

:blink:

[jam1e]

I have both.

 

The difference in accuracy for "general field use" is negligible between my Magtech 7022 and CZ 452 Silhouette.

 

If you want to empty a magazine: 1.7sec for 10 shots I managed at Bisley a few months back, and they all hit the black at 100 yards (Prone, off the Bipod), then so be it.

 

That is not a comparison of accuracy, that is simply fun! :D :good:

That's partly the reason for the thread Dekers. "All being well" I'd like to have abit of fun, and maybe a look at the "mini rifle" game. But accuracy in the field would be more important than the fun side of things. But that aside, it's always been an "I wonder" of mine.

[Hamster]

Unfortunately for me it appears that the majority of people with experience of both think bolt actions are more accurate. I say unfortunately because I've forever longed for a tricked up 10/22 that can give the same accuracy as my bolt action so that I can have both plinking fun and serious distance sniping tool for rabbits.

[Gimlet]

Unfortunately for me it appears that the majority of people with experience of both think bolt actions are more accurate. I say unfortunately because I've forever longed for a tricked up 10/22 that can give the same accuracy as my bolt action so that I can have both plinking fun and serious distance sniping tool for rabbits.

 

One thing I did find with my old Krico was that hunting trips rapidly degenerated into plinking sessions. Semis do that to you.

I do quite fancy a go with one of those assault rifle .22 semis with the massive mags for a session on a proper plinking range.

[station]

no i haven't, are they one of those sub machine gun look-a-likes?

the 525 i had was a bit ugly looking but by god and sonny jesus it was accurate.

 

Yes they are and are available in the usual black or silver - if you like that sort of thing.

I see these types of rifle as a bit of fun, but if they shoot well and prove to be reliable then great.

[station]

One thing I did find with my old Krico was that hunting trips rapidly degenerated into plinking sessions. Semis do that to you.

I do quite fancy a go with one of those assault rifle .22 semis with the massive mags for a session on a proper plinking range.

 

You're right Gimlet - you start off with good intentions and then 2 boxes of ammo later you sit there thinking - WHY

 

They are great fun though and my little guilty secret - go ahead get an AR look alike and enjoy yourself

[Amazed]

I allways fancied one of those armer light ar semis I dought ver much it will be any where as cool or shoot as well as it did for James bond tho ha ha

[Vince Green]

I think a lot of it with semis comes down to the build quality and rigidity rather than the type of action. They are generally built for a different sort of market by a different sort of user. If say Anshutz built an out and out target semi auto rifle there would be no issue over accuracy.

 

10/22s are lightweight fun guns, the receiver is aluminium and actually quite flimsy, the original barrels are a bit lightweight. Its a gun for shooting tin cans with in its original concept for the US market. I don't imagine the action is bedded that tightly into the stock etc. But boy are they fun.