Is much accuracy lost with semi-auto .22lr compared to bolt action?

[Hamster]

Totally agree Vince, good ones must be possible to make.

[Lampwick]

I'm sure a decent bolt action .22 would be more accurate in a test than my Annie 525 but its great for knocking down rabbits and if there's more than one about they had better be quick! It's fun to rip off 11 shots in the blink of an eye or three every now and then too!

However it is quite a bit noisier than a bolt action due to the loss of control of the action.

 

All in all I love it for what I use it for!

 

Ps used a 10/22 standar and it's wasn't a scratch on the Annie!

 

Lampwick

 

[wildrover77]

Has anyone ever looked into the H&K PSG1?

 

It is not a RF but illustrates what is achieveable with a semi.

[kent]

Totally agree Vince, good ones must be possible to make.

 

It certainly is, but i will need to be fed one particular type and brand of ammo and kept very clean and generally well maintained. For a manufacturer point of view thats a big issue as far as customer complaints and warranty returns. Reduce tollerances and you make them more accurate but also more fussy. .22 ammo varies a lot !

 

question then comes up- why? if you want the most accurate buy a good bolt gun. Accurate fire aint the same as rapid fire. although a great fan of the auto loading shotgun- i dont fancy the same in a rifle, wishing to have total control over the feeding or otherwise of another live round. At night especially they can prove difficult to clear with those little .22 rounds

[Hamster]

Totally right Kent, I hadn't thought about the warranty and returns issue but it must have a bearing on why it's not been attempted on a mass produced basis. I can't recall if it was a ground up job or one based on a Ruger 10/22 action but Theoben did make a tasty semi which they reckoned groups the same as a bolt action but it was low volume and doesn't appear to have caught on?!

[kent]

Totally right Kent, I hadn't thought about the warranty and returns issue but it must have a bearing on why it's not been attempted on a mass produced basis. I can't recall if it was a ground up job or one based on a Ruger 10/22 action but Theoben did make a tasty semi which they reckoned groups the same as a bolt action but it was low volume and doesn't appear to have caught on?!

 

at a little "trade" discusion on the matter of semi auto air rifles it was decided better not to in view of potential to change to tighter legislation. The tecnology itself is quite straight forwards

[Hamster]

at a little "trade" discusion on the matter of semi auto air rifles it was decided better not to in view of potential to change to tighter legislation. The tecnology itself is quite straight forwards

 

No I meant a rimmie semi, I'm sure they did one a while back?!

[jam1e]

I had a 10/22 and it was a pile of ****! To be fair it never jammed, even with subs! But it was so agricultural. The trigger was also terrible and very heavy.

Ruger seem to get away with producing very poor "standard" rimfire rifles just because there are huge amounts of mods available.

But by the time you've "tricked" it up to perform as it should do in the first place, there are very few original parts left! I would "guess" it would make more financial sense to just buy modded parts and create your own 10/22...

Edited September 20, 2012 by jam1e

[1066]

 

with a 22, you soon realise the weakest link is the ammo, even tenex will throw a flyer

 

I agree with this - Over the last twenty years or so centrefire rifle/ammunition accuracy has improved considerably. A few years ago the benchmark for an accurate rifle was considered 1MOA, now this sort of performance is pretty run of the mill, the size of long range targets has been consistently reduced and record groups are getting smaller and smaller.

 

Some of this improvement is down to better hardware, better barrels, triggers, bedding, etc. some is down to better sights/optics but a lot is down to better ammunition. We pay far more attention to case preparation, neck tension, seating depth etc. than we did only a few years ago and endless experiments have led to many excellent wildcat calibres/cartridges.

 

Compare that with the .22 rimfire - As far as I can see there has been very little improvement over the nearly 50 years I have been shooting it. A good Martini actioned International, shooting the best Eley 10x in the 1960's would group about an inch at 100yds on a still day. There is very little difference today despite the countless thousands of .22 ammunition produced every year. You would think that a small R&D team working at Eley/CCI/Remmington would have come up with something new over the years, something like filling the cases with a solid propellent that is fully consumed on shooting, not filling up the action with all the crud that we get now. What about the bullet lube, waxy stuff that is hard as iron when its cold and sticky and smeary when its hot - I think all the manufacturer get away with the poorest quality that they can and charge the higest prices that they can get away with and because of the nature of the rimfire case you are stuck with what you have.

[Cannon]

Has anyone ever looked into the H&K PSG1?

 

It is not a RF but illustrates what is achieveable with a semi.

 

I don't know why this is, but I was able to get tighter groups with an FAL than I was with a 10/22. The caliber difference is monumental. There must be something inherently wrong with semi auto rimfires. Not once have I witnessed a semi auto rimfire group as tight as a bolt action rimfire.

[Alycidon]

I have had both, an Annie 1712 which I switched to a 10/22. Went semi as I needed more firepower to clear a golf course.

 

First 3 rabbits with the 10/22 all dead, next 20 ALL wounded. In the end I rebarrelled it with a Shilen, than sorted it. That rifle is for sale at present in Northampton Gun if interested.

 

Buying one today if going semi I would go either full custom ( SYSS etc) or a semi custom like mine. If you dont need the firepower then stay with a bolt action.

 

A

[wildfowler.250]

My little CZ511 self loader is quite an accurate rifle

 

I have a bolt action and the above gun. The previous owner had work done on the 511,(would have to look it up to remember correctly) and it shoots great! Trigger is slightly heavy but the accuracy is good. MORE than enough for hunting. It's also great fun when plinking.

 

 

But CZ make good guns. I wouldn't buy a Walter/ruger ect. The rugers can be very nice but you spend a lot!

 

Ps I got the semi-auto mainly for lamping. Instant second shot and it doesn't jam

[jam1e]

I have a bolt action and the above gun. The previous owner had work done on the 511,(would have to look it up to remember correctly) and it shoots great! Trigger is slightly heavy but the accuracy is good. MORE than enough for hunting. It's also great fun when plinking.

 

 

But CZ make good guns. I wouldn't buy a Walter/ruger ect. The rugers can be very nice but you spend a lot!

 

Ps I got the semi-auto mainly for lamping. Instant second shot and it doesn't jam

 

What semi did you get Wildfowler? What moa is it doing at say 80ish yards?

I wouldn't buy a Ruger 10/22 rimfire on pricipal.

Why should i have to spend money on modified parts for a new gun, just to make it shoot acceptably?

I'd rather put the money towards getting a better quality gun. imo.

[drone]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this due to all the waffle, but the lock time has a hell of a lot to do with accuracy especially if folks get a flinch in their shooting.

First 22 lr I used was the bsa martini very very accurate but a lock time that could almost be measured in tenths of a second. Ruger 10/22 is the same most of the better quality bolt action have dead quick lock times and, immaterial of the inherent accuracy of the barrel this gives the shooter a much better advantage. Typical of these, in my experience almost always had box type magazines, ie tubular magazines tend to have older bolt systems. I've been impressed by the ruger 77 22 lr also the sako quad but not the browning T bolt. I guess there are other guns out there that are as good.

Incidentally, if you shoot from a solid rest most of what I've written is rubbish, but if you're out in the field and take a shot offhand trust me what I've suggested is true.

Yes autos are less accurate than bolt action, lever action are worse btw, and not all bolt actions are equal. You get very much what you pay for. I had a rem 22 lr when I was in OZ in the 60s, it was a demon bolt action I can't remember the bloody number though - sorry.

[DaveK]

OOOOOO the 10/22 seems to be getting some bad press here. Lets hear it from the other side.

 

My 10/22 works very well and I'm happy to take 100 yard shots on rabbits and hares with it off a bipod but mainly shoot up to 70 yards - ish. I hardly ever clean it and it cycles Winnie subs near faultlessly (fault mostly being magazines rather than the rifle). I've had it for @ 12 years and it replaced a bolt action.

 

So where's the problem? It shoots as accurately as I can make it. The variable being ME and not the rifle. It's not standard but it didn't cost an arm and a leg either. There's a lot said against 10/22's, often by people who have never had one or by people who expected something bog standard to perform like a custom job.

 

As for them that say you shouldn't need to spend money on them, many custom jobs are on a Remy 700 action which started as a standard Remy. What about them that have their rifles blueprinted? Semi custom rebarreled jobbies? What's up with a 10/22 going through the same process?

 

Bolt more accurate than semi? I never noticed if that's any indication.

[Imperfection]

I have a bolt action and the above gun. The previous owner had work done on the 511,(would have to look it up to remember correctly) and it shoots great! Trigger is slightly heavy but the accuracy is good. MORE than enough for hunting. It's also great fun when plinking.

 

 

 

Yes,i agree the trigger is slightly heavy,but im reliably told that you shouldnt try to make it lighter because the rifle will end up going full auto.Its a fantastic rifle,but let down by spare magazine availability.

[al4x]

Is that because Trisha is on tv?

[wildfowler.250]

Yes,i agree the trigger is slightly heavy,but im reliably told that you shouldnt try to make it lighter because the rifle will end up going full auto.Its a fantastic rifle,but let down by spare magazine availability.

 

Yeah i was fortunate enough to get a spare with the gun. I've seen the odd one crop up though! You do get used to the trigger pretty quickly though. Mine sort of has 2 stages...first part of the pull is a little stiff and then a slight bit of extra pressure for the shot. Not like my finnfire which breaks like glass though but it's fine for hunting!

 

What semi did you get Wildfowler? What moa is it doing at say 80ish yards?

I wouldn't buy a Ruger 10/22 rimfire on pricipal.

Why should i have to spend money on modified parts for a new gun, just to make it shoot acceptably?

I'd rather put the money towards getting a better quality gun. imo.

 

It's a CZ 511 with a walnut stock,(subsonic version so it's no problems). I would 'say' about an inch at eighty yards but haven't done a lot of target work with it,(just zero and go hunting). Actually really like the gun and its quite solid compaired to my friends walter G22! It's also a great size for lamping

[Imperfection]

It wont go full auto, it might be problematic but it wont go full auto. I wont say why though

 

Im intrigued! Go on-tell me!

[Imperfection]

Yeah i was fortunate enough to get a spare with the gun. I've seen the odd one crop up though! You do get used to the trigger pretty quickly though. Mine sort of has 2 stages...first part of the pull is a little stiff and then a slight bit of extra pressure for the shot. Not like my finnfire which breaks like glass though but it's fine for hunting!

 

 

I've got two magazines with mine and i keep meaning to spray them illuminous so if dropped i should be able to locate them a bit easier.The trigger dont bother me as i've got other rifles which are much heavier (Mauser for example) and its just something you get used to.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Imperfection

[Gregthegreat]

Trisha, how dare you!

 

Jeremy Kyle for me.

 

The real reason is a phrase our friend mr ackley used to use which i wont repeat but why record on 'paper' what you didnt ought to know, shouldnt educate and to be honest, if you know anything about 10-22's specifically, please think about what is actually holding the hammer back while the bolt closes if the trigger has not been released?

 

Correct, nothing, it will just roll back down slowly along with the bolt and render the gun loaded but not cocked.

Are you saying you have to release the trigger before the bolt closes otherwise it won't function correctly?!!

 

Edit: Not that I'm looking to make a full auto 10/22 - this just seems strange.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Gregthegreat

[Thunderbird]

I was thinking about a 511 for a bit of a laugh.

 

They seem to be well thought of.

[la bala]

my mate has a anchutz semi, if thats how you spell it. take out any live round thats has been chambered and it is skinned, dont know if it is wear or the fact it has been chambered a lot faster than a bolt action.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

It wont go full auto, it might be problematic but it wont go full auto. I wont say why though

 

I had a CZ semi, and asked a gunshop to lighten the trigger.

 

1st shot - brrrp, and the mag was empty. Part of the trigger action had a revolving cam, on which was a sear.....

 

Now this was a fairly accurate gun, and very well built - but nothing near as accurate as the Brno bolt action that i had at the same time.

 

I bought a new 10/22 and the accuracy was poor and the misfeeding mag drove me nuts.

 

To show how stupid I was, I believed all the hype and bought a fully tricked out 10/22 with fancy barrel, modified trigger etc, and the accuracy on that was also poor, and the trigger nothing to shout home about.

 

The most accurate semi I owned was an Anschutz with a match grade barrel fitted. This was OK, but the trigger was long and sloppy.

 

I have had a bundle of bolt action rimmys, and all shot better that the Annie semi. These included 2 x Brno, Krico, Sako Varmint (the most accurate) and currently an Annie thumbhole - also very accurate; the trigger is the best ever, but due to the lightweight you have to concentrate.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Dead-Eyed Duck

[Paddy Galore!]

just back from the yard, did my little test. and at 75m there was hardly any difference, both shot under 1" groups, they were all nearly touching. the only awkward thing is i was aiming at the previous bullet hole on a white board, which can prove difficult when the crosshair covers the hole. the recoil from the semi was a bit off putting but didn't cause any loss of accuracy, the only time the groups tended to open up was when i was in a hurry to empty the mag.