Nightrider Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 On 04/10/2012 at 13:31, cookoff013 said: goo point. On 02/10/2012 at 11:12, Bear68 said: There is an article in the current Fieldsports magazine saying that you should only use plastic wads if your gun has extended forcing cones (like my Browning 525), as fibre wads don't create a good enough seal to produce a good pattern. A number of clay grounds and gameshoots don't allow the use of plastic wads, and I'm not keen on them either. Has anyone actually tried different types of wads on a pattern plate to see if this argument holds water? Yes, I have. And yes, it does "hold water". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 A six year old thread resurrected for no point whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 On 02/10/2012 at 15:52, Hamster said: I believe Sporting Gun did a test/article on this very thing and there does seem to be a problem, apparently every so often the patterns were visibly poo. My comp gun has ext forcing cones in common with a great many others and I hate fibre/felt shells. They kick more and try as I might can't get consistent smokes even on easyish birds. Extended forcing cones have the effect of further enlarging an already over-bored barrel bore size; this can (and does) allow high pressure gas to escape past the fibre wads, which are unable to expand sufficiently to obturate (seal) the rapidly expanding propellant gas. This disrups the patterns..and at times... worse. Some guns, and some cartridges, suffer this issue more than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightrider Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Gordon R said: A six year old thread resurrected for no point whatsoever. On the contrary, it is a vitally important topic that is even more relevant at this very time. The current debate about plastic in society has seen many posts on shooting forums, with shooters (yes, shooters...not antis) talking of BANNING plastic wads! If that were to happen a great many owners of guns not well suited to fibre wads could be at a disadvantage. Beyond that, the issue of shot Balling is both real, and potentially dangerous. It is time for people to take more notice of what is happening. But few know much about it or, it seems, care much either. When someone gets hurt that could change very fast. Better to be informed and prepared than take a 'head in sand' approach. Edited October 12, 2018 by Nightrider spelling of 'disadvantage' & 'happening'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 I shoot regularly at clays with people using `overbored` guns and fibre wads....they break the clays just the same as I do with my tighter bored guns..........more hypothesis then actual problem ,I feel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Gordon R said: A six year old thread resurrected for no point whatsoever. It seems to be quite a regular occurrence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevo Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 10 minutes ago, matone said: I shoot regularly at clays with people using `overbored` guns and fibre wads....they break the clays just the same as I do with my tighter bored guns..........more hypothesis then actual problem ,I feel! This ☝️ Both my DT 11 s ( trap and sport ) are amazing with fibre , I even swapped over to fibre for skeet , they sound a little different so most seem to think there not performing . It’s all a load of tosh 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 I use both types of wad in my 725 without any noticeable difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) What a cracking thread with loads of valid points raised. I think many will know from other similar topics that from costly experience I'm in the "yes, there's a problem" corner. The trouble is though the two words "can" and "will" with regard to the occurence of the problem. Until the "can" is accepted as opposed to the "will" then any debate is rendered difficult by the "I shoot so and so with so and so cartridges and there's no problem". I still say that the gunmakers need to talk to the cartridge loaders even for no other reason than why a 6&1/2 lb game gun is made with 3" chambers unless someone is going to load 28g of No 7 in a 3" cartridge because I can't see anyone voluntarily spending a day pooping off 100+ 42g loads in a 3" cartridge at high pheasant from such a gun. Well, not twice anyway. Edited October 13, 2018 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted October 12, 2018 Report Share Posted October 12, 2018 Quote Better to be informed and prepared than take a 'head in sand' approach. Quote Yes, I have. And yes, it does "hold water". No question of head in the sand. You resurrect a 6 year old thread with "it does hold water". It hardly adds anything to any debate. Perhaps it would have been better to post on the most recent thread on the very subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 12 hours ago, stevo said: This ☝️ Both my DT 11 s ( trap and sport ) are amazing with fibre , I even swapped over to fibre for skeet , they sound a little different so most seem to think there not performing . It’s all a load of tosh 🤔 Hmmm ... Things have move on a bit since your post in May last year then where different DT11 barrels were trialed with fibre and found the one with the wider bore was ... 'ha ha' ... Deffo some tosh somewhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 Nightrider, The seal on a fibre cartridge is the over powder card, as this is sized bigger than most bores, the wad provides a secondary seal if any. Some cheaper cartridges omit the opc and patterns may suffer in a over bored gun as a result. Shot balling is nearly always pressure welding in a modern cartridge (the pressure raising the temperature) , gas seepage is unlikely on its own to cause this as escaping gas temp does not ramp up high enough and us in fact cooling as it rapidly expands without resistance, but mixing powder and shot together can cause balling as happens occasionally in bp as the wadding is forgotten or insufficent and can result in hot gas balling. I am certainly in the 'ban plastic wads' camp and have been for a number of years as this would reduce a man made issue with plastic but from a competition point of view would result in investment in fibre cartridges , wads and shotcups. Shooting lumps of single use plastic randomly into the environment was never the best of ideas and it is one change we as shooters can make relatively painlessly and it may favour the argument to maintain lead shot use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, Stonepark said: Nightrider, The seal on a fibre cartridge is the over powder card, as this is sized bigger than most bores, the wad provides a secondary seal if any. Some cheaper cartridges omit the opc and patterns may suffer in a over bored gun as a result. Shot balling is nearly always pressure welding in a modern cartridge (the pressure raising the temperature) , gas seepage is unlikely on its own to cause this as escaping gas temp does not ramp up high enough and us in fact cooling as it rapidly expands without resistance, but mixing powder and shot together can cause balling as happens occasionally in bp as the wadding is forgotten or insufficent and can result in hot gas balling. I am certainly in the 'ban plastic wads' camp and have been for a number of years as this would reduce a man made issue with plastic but from a competition point of view would result in investment in fibre cartridges , wads and shotcups. Shooting lumps of single use plastic randomly into the environment was never the best of ideas and it is one change we as shooters can make relatively painlessly and it may favour the argument to maintain lead shot use. The second of the two points highlighted is certainly true but it's probably fair to say that there's an element of hindsight involved. Anyone who watched the plastic/oceans TV programme just recently (ignoring the hysteria of the presenter) cannot fail to realise that this is a global problem which therefore requires a global solution. The first highlighted point requires such action. Given a lead time to prepare for any necessary legislation then there's no doubt that an environmentally friendly solution could be found and if the use of such wad material was applied across the globe, then it would also be user friendly in terms of cost. Will it happen? Of course not. Eventually, some political entity will get a strop on and in effect their use will be banned overnight and shooters will look at each other and wonder what the hell happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 I believe if plastic wads, particularly the totally enclosed variety were banned, subsequently when using cartridges with hard and/or abrasive shot types, cartridge length would need to be matched closely to chamber length.....as bridging the gap when firing a card wadcup/fibre wadded short cartridge, in a long chambered gun could cause damage to the forcing cone and the bore! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I believe if plastic wads, particularly the totally enclosed variety were banned, subsequently when using cartridges with hard and/or abrasive shot types, cartridge length would need to be matched closely to chamber length.....as bridging the gap when firing a card wadcup/fibre wadded short cartridge, in a long chambered gun could cause damage to the forcing cone and the bore! Have I got it right in as much as anyone looking for the best possible cartridge performance in terms of pattern quality would match the gun chamber length to that of the cartridge? Should this be so, then no matter what the wad material is, is why is there no demand for 3" standard (sic) game or clay cartridges? (Think that was rhetorical with no answer being required as it's obvious.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, wymberley said: Have I got it right in as much as anyone looking for the best possible cartridge performance in terms of pattern quality would match the gun chamber length to that of the cartridge? Should this be so, then no matter what the wad material is, is why is there no demand for 3" standard (sic) game or clay cartridges? (Think that was rhetorical with no answer being required as it's obvious.) Yes, I think so, it would serve no purpose to have a long chamber and shoot short shells from it. Edited October 13, 2018 by TIGHTCHOKE Capitalisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, wymberley said: Have I got it right in as much as anyone looking for the best possible cartridge performance in terms of pattern quality would match the gun chamber length to that of the cartridge? Should this be so, then no matter what the wad material is, is why is there no demand for 3" standard (sic) game or clay cartridges? (Think that was rhetorical with no answer being required as it's obvious.) I posted this in referrence to possible damage to the gun, not the performance of the cartridge!.....No damage is caused by using short lead cartridges in a long chambered gun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I posted this in referrence to possible damage to the gun, not the performance of the cartridge!.....No damage is caused by using short lead cartridges in a long chambered gun! I quite agree, the only "damage" would possibly be to the pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, panoma1 said: I posted this in referrence to possible damage to the gun, not the performance of the cartridge!.....No damage is caused by using short lead cartridges in a long chambered gun! Yep, and quite clearly so, but I was wondering if there was a possibility of damage to the pattern. Apart from cost, many folk prefer plastic wads for superior performance so was questioning if this would be effected by the short cartridge/long chamber. 2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: I quite agree, the only "damage" would possibly be to the pattern. Snap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 Spooky! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: I quite agree, the only "damage" would possibly be to the pattern. Nope! Steel shot, original hevishot, powershot etc, is harder (as is Tungsten based shot) than the steel used for making gun barrels, that is why loading formulas stipulate a plastic totally enclosed wad, in order to avoid damage to the gun barrel bore when using it! Soft card type shot cups which, on ignition/combustion, due to the pressure created, could distort, lose integrity, and break up, with the resultant failure of the cup to contain the shot as it exits the cartridge case, enters the chamber and then the forcing cone would, when using hard and/or abrasive shot, potentially damage the gun, as the shot charge was bridging the gap that would exist between case mouth and bore proper, when using short cartridges in long chambers! The affect on pattern, ballistics and performance of using a short cartridge in a long chambered gun.......is another matter.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Nope! Steel shot, original hevishot, powershot etc, is harder (as is Tungsten based shot) than the steel used for making gun barrels, that is why loading formulas stipulate a plastic totally enclosed wad, in order to avoid damage to the gun barrel bore when using it! Soft card type shot cups which, on ignition/combustion, due to the pressure created, could distort, lose integrity, and break up, with the resultant failure of the cup to contain the shot as it exits the cartridge case, enters the chamber and then the forcing cone would, when using hard and/or abrasive shot, potentially damage the gun, as the shot charge was bridging the gap that would exist between case mouth and bore proper, when using short cartridges in long chambers! The affect on pattern, ballistics and performance of using a short cartridge in a long chambered gun.......is another matter.... I can't/won't speak for anyone else, but I rather think my last reply (and possibly another) were in response to your, "short lead cartridge in a long chambered gun. Edited October 13, 2018 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 Personally I think if it were the issue some seem to think it is, then gunmakers/cartridge manufacturers would have addressed it some time ago. In all the years I've been shooting I've never met anyone who has raised this as an issue, or thinks it an issue worthy of mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) Funny thing but as an old and cynical old sod who has been in the gun trade for nigh on 50 years , I have seen so many gimmicks , all the "newest" and most wonderful inventions since the wheel .Every one will make you a better shot . Ha Ha . Every time I have thought this is just a big con perpetuated by magazines after more advertising space and makers trying to sell more guns . None of these ideas have ever addressed the real point is that some people will never be able to shoot as well as others no matter what you by or what your gun has or hasn't got fitted . Did any of the tests use a control sample of shooting say 50 shots through standard gun to confirm the consistency of the used cartridges ? Shortly using 2&1/2" cases in a 2&1/2" chambered gun as with 2&3/4" in a 3" or 3&1/2" chambered gun will have some effect similar to a barrel with extended chamber cones. Simple solution is to find a cartridge that suits the gun and suits you . Same advice I have given to any one and every one for the last 30 years at least . Edited October 13, 2018 by Gunman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 13, 2018 Report Share Posted October 13, 2018 1 hour ago, wymberley said: I can't/won't speak for anyone else, but I rather think my last reply (and possibly another) were in response to your, "short lead cartridge in a long chambered gun. On the money! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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