kent Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 The video I posted was to show another example of fixing barking in the car. All she uses is cloth and a guard and a sharp tone to let the dog know that what it is doing is unacceptable. I will not get into an argument with people about my opinions over Shock Collars especially when they won't listen to reason and are stuck in their ways. Whats the point. Wastes my time and at the end of the day if you're going to go around electrocuting your dog because you can't be bothered to find a decent way to train it - then thats your problem. The day I have to resort to a shock collar is the day that I will give up owning animals all together. They are nothing but barbaric and the lazy option. And if you can't train your dog with patience and time then IMHO you don't deserve to own one. Nope you will just get the 5 out of a hundred destoyed or palmed off. its not a first resort. Get your hands on a realy keen dog that has killed sheep etc. and you is gonna struggle, to be fair you aint been there and collar correction is generally far less dangerous than stamping on a long check cord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Ukpoacher, some dogs realise the sender unit is connected to the act, some the collar. PAC actually sell familurisation collars for this very purpose. Even the smell of the dummy and the real mccoy can inform some dogs of moves afoot. I also keep the sender out of sight, getting it wrong can have big conequences as you loose the tools effectiveness. I aint used one in a good while and mine is out on loan for a sheep breaking job- ever met a terrier that has killed to ewes? i wouldn't have even believed it possible for such a little dog. If you doubt this view how many collar trained dogs only behave when the collar or dummy collar is worn- waste of time IMO. Note the habituation process involves lots of on and off periods, but no use whatsoever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ETO Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 But you are yourself stuck in your ways by denying the ec has a use. Taking the superior high ground, sing words like 'shock' as in 'electric' without acknowledging that any intervention could be construed as shocking the dog whether it be emotional or physical. The reason you don't want to getinto an argument is because you have an opinion that you can't justify. BTW; I have never had need to use an ec (yet), but I have been in situations where I would imagine that the end result could have been achieved far more quickly or with better effect by using one. My only reservations about them are that some people will use them inappropriately, just as some people use emotional and physical intervention incorrectly. No I believe every piece of dog training equipment has it's place and when used properly it can work well. But it's far too easy to stick one on a dog and force it to behave. I use training techniques that allow the dog to make a choice, allow the dog to work out for itself what I want - thats what training should be. And I can back up my opinion, but as I've said - it wouldn't be listened to so whats the point. I have given a member on here another technique to stop the barking in the car but nope they want to spend god knows how much money on something that actually does shock their dog - I've had one around my wrist and it does shock. It's not like a vibrating collar - which I completely agree with since I have seen them used on deaf dogs and used in a proper manner. My Opinion still stands that if you have to use a Shock collar on a dog then you don't deserve to own one. And Kent, a lead will fix a dog trying to take off and kill sheep - it's not rocket science. My dogs would happily chase sheep and cows, so they aren't offlead around them and I try to avoid them where possible. It's not hard. I don't even agree with people putting dogs in with Tups that will tell them where to go if they try to attack them - because whilst it can send the dogs back, it can also make it more of a game for the dog. So if you have a dog that will chase or kill sheep, keep it on a lead near sheep! It's simple. Thats all I'm going to say on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 The video I posted was to show another example of fixing barking in the car. All she uses is cloth and a guard and a sharp tone to let the dog know that what it is doing is unacceptable. I will not get into an argument with people about my opinions over Shock Collars especially when they won't listen to reason and are stuck in their ways. Whats the point. Wastes my time and at the end of the day if you're going to go around electrocuting your dog because you can't be bothered to find a decent way to train it - then thats your problem. The day I have to resort to a shock collar is the day that I will give up owning animals all together. They are nothing but barbaric and the lazy option. And if you can't train your dog with patience and time then IMHO you don't deserve to own one. ETO, this is your post! that aint someone who believes in all meathods. The problem with these things is maybee anyone can buy and use them, i am realising that from this thread. They will get banned and mainly because people who don't use or understand them make comments like the above. Its sort of like gun legislation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 No I believe every piece of dog training equipment has it's place and when used properly it can work well. But it's far too easy to stick one on a dog and force it to behave. I use training techniques that allow the dog to make a choice, allow the dog to work out for itself what I want - thats what training should be. And I can back up my opinion, but as I've said - it wouldn't be listened to so whats the point. I have given a member on here another technique to stop the barking in the car but nope they want to spend god knows how much money on something that actually does shock their dog - I've had one around my wrist and it does shock. It's not like a vibrating collar - which I completely agree with since I have seen them used on deaf dogs and used in a proper manner. My Opinion still stands that if you have to use a Shock collar on a dog then you don't deserve to own one. And Kent, a lead will fix a dog trying to take off and kill sheep - it's not rocket science. My dogs would happily chase sheep and cows, so they aren't offlead around them and I try to avoid them where possible. It's not hard. I don't even agree with people putting dogs in with Tups that will tell them where to go if they try to attack them - because whilst it can send the dogs back, it can also make it more of a game for the dog. So if you have a dog that will chase or kill sheep, keep it on a lead near sheep! It's simple. Thats all I'm going to say on the matter. Not realy an option on a working dog in sheep country or those of us who live on sheep farms like me, it comes down to break them or shoot them - that simple!. Sheep breaking 99.9% of dogs is easy if you get them as pups the 0.1 is a bit of a swine the blighters fool you until they are all big and grown up. Try re-stockbreaking a big hard going stalking dog in adolesance when it desides that its fun and they know better than the boss, been there done that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzypigeon Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 If a dog will chase sheep the answer is not to put the dog on a lead.....that is avoiding the issue it doesn't solve the problem only masks the fact the dog has not been trained properly....sorry if I've mis-read what you have put but that's my view... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 If a dog will chase sheep the answer is not to put the dog on a lead.....that is avoiding the issue it doesn't solve the problem only masks the fact the dog has not been trained properly....sorry if I've mis-read what you have put but that's my view... indeed its fine till the dog gets out and chases them and gets shot, similarly one that chases sheep is also likely to chase deer and ground game so useless on a shoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
working dog Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 E Collar use always generates debate. I've owned my EC for about 8 years and have used it twice in this time. Once was to get a recall from my prey driven bitch (would chase birds and rabbits over fields and not recall once the ears were down). In this case it took one session with the collar to get the recall. I could have used a long line but the chosen method didnt have 4 stone of Shepherd going from full chat to a standstill in an instant, stopped by her neck. The other time was to work with a dog that was too boisterous with their other dog. We had tried other methods but the dog insisted on charging in. The owners didnt realise that I was stimming the dog and thought that he was just being well behaved on the day. Its not about coursing a million volts through the dog. The dog doesnt jump on all fours, hair on end and start to glow, its more a quick flick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzypigeon Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 indeed its fine till the dog gets out and chases them and gets shot, similarly one that chases sheep is also likely to chase deer and ground game so useless on a shoot Fully agree just because you put the dog on a lead isn't the answer.....my dog has been a little bit too curious around livestock in the past admitted he wouldn't chase but he would want to have a sniff and ignore me.....I went for a couple of days training with a professional trainer who rectified the issue which was 50/50 between my handling and my dog being a stubborn ***... And that for me is the best way to remedy any issue with any dog......adequate training of both dog and OWNER!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buggs Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 Not realy because you need to be hands on to see the "why". Bluntly is it you or the dog? if its the dog -why? If its you -why? If the dog has never realy been trained to stop to flush or stop to wistle thats a different matter as you ask about drills i suspect that might just be the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 I think the resistance (sorry) to electric collars is in the title - electric. People assume that it shocks the dog in the same way as an electric sheep fence does. It doesn't. Certainly the ones I've tried on myself. At worst they are like a dentist's polisher. Uncomfortable, but cause no harm. The collar does not electricute the dog. If they did then they would be banned in most countries. What they do is distract the dog from its chosen line of behaviour. Rather like clapping your hands, throwing a metal disc (remember them?), or my preferred method for the stop / recall, to throw a chain near to the dog so that it sees it and reacts to its presence thus breaking the pre-occupation with the bad behaviour and alowing the handler to reinforce the command. All dogs are different and need to be trained in a way that suits their needs. I've seen dogs that would cower and roll over just by my glaring at them and others, like the neighbour farmer's dog here, are so thick skinned and stupid you could hit them over the head with a shovel and still not make an impact on it. Every dog is an individual and some dogs will respond more quickly and more reliably to ec than other methods. The problem with joe public using an ec is that they might not appreciate when and how to use it properly. A few years ago there was a YouTube video of an American shooter putting the collar on his dog then pressing the button to make sure it worked. He couldn't understand why the dog kicked off when he tried to put the collar on it. Other handlers I've seen have wanted to use an ec to correct a problem that they, not the dog was causing. That's my issue with them. The type of people who bawl at their dogs for not coming back then give them a hiding after they have come back should not be using an ec because they are the problem, not the dog. ETO, you claim not to want to debate because people won't listen to your views. Yet, you admit to not considering the ec a useful method and therefore won't discuss it. Hoist by your own pertard I think. Police dogs are often strays or re-homes and some come from very difficult circumstances with a lot of baggage. They differ vastly in character and temperament and we only had 14 weeks to get them from an uncontrolable animal with no discipline or bond between them and their new handler to passing a Home Office Licencing Test involving obedience, searching and criminal work. One of the methods used to stop a dog brom chasing after a trainer criminal before being told or to stop the dog from attacking someone who has stood still is as Kent has alluded, to stamp on a trailing line. Believe me, I would rather have the ec than being sharply braked in that way. When this method has to be used, and it is a last resort, the dogs don't seem to differentiate between when they have th line on or not. Once the collar is on, they don't react any differently to a long line, short line or latterly, no line. That is why I do not understand the 4 week familiarisation period advised by Kent. I have not used an ec so I might be missing a trick specific to that equipment, but I cannot evisage a situation that requires such a long familarisation period. If they do need that length of time then fair dos. It would be a shame to undermine the training by introducing negative association at an early stage. Bloggs; I haven't had cause to use a clicker yet. They were all the rage when I was training my second police dog, but I couldn't see the point of them and the dog was doing fine without my using one. I've seen demonstrations of the clicker method and to be honest I don't get it. Where my colleagues used the 'Click' I would give the dog a vocal confirmation: "Good lad!" in a quiet, light tone. I saw a lot of problems with using the clicker mainly in it being used incorrectly such as at the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 The first thing I did with a collar was put it on my leg and the hype is from people who haven't done so, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 5, 2012 Report Share Posted November 5, 2012 with some dogs you might get away without the familurisation. However its exactly like the long check once the dog is aware of its use and what happens the game is largely lost. Too big a risk not to for me as the collar is a last resort for AVERSION ONLY in my hands, i have tried other stuff but they just aint as good as the old ways. its a fact long checks have damaged more dogs physically than collars, top wack on a good collar aint realy useable unless its life or death maybee with a bad human agressive, a bit mis informative to say there is nothing much behind them at all (personally i should just bullet such a beast anyway) All humans and all dogs have differing sensitivity to electic current what one guy cannot feel another will be jumping about, its the same with dogs so care is needed in finding the better level for the particular dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 6, 2012 Report Share Posted November 6, 2012 Coward! Ye should've had it on yer neck!!! On a serious note - have seen quite a few dogs respond well to the electric collars and was thinking on trying it on my lab too - although I can't really do that at the moment as I am not getting time with the dog. Regards, G..lanah. I did. It was like being done with the polisher at the dentists. The whole point of them is to break the dog's preoccupation with whatever it is doing not to zap them into submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buggs Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 If you need an electric collar it suggests a couple of things..... ur dog is lacking or you are lacking, make sure YOU are trained before shocking the **** out of the dog and try to find the reason WHY is it doing it? usually a small life style change will solve most issues, alt of the time its lack of exercise or fun time, its amazing the amount of dogs that there exercise is to go out training....if you don't have the dogs respect ur wasting your time if its afraid of you likewise, iv never trained a dog with a collar, and never raised my hand to one spend some more one on one with it having fun between training it will soon realise that when you put a certain bit of clothing or take that walking stick or what ever that its business time, sorry if i sound patronizing but i feel strongly that electric collars are unnessesary and the reality is not all dogs have ot in them to be great dogs but most can achieve medioca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 If you need an electric collar it suggests a couple of things..... ur dog is lacking or you are lacking, make sure YOU are trained before shocking the **** out of the dog and try to find the reason WHY is it doing it? usually a small life style change will solve most issues, alt of the time its lack of exercise or fun time, its amazing the amount of dogs that there exercise is to go out training....if you don't have the dogs respect ur wasting your time if its afraid of you likewise, iv never trained a dog with a collar, and never raised my hand to one spend some more one on one with it having fun between training it will soon realise that when you put a certain bit of clothing or take that walking stick or what ever that its business time, sorry if i sound patronizing but i feel strongly that electric collars are unnessesary and the reality is not all dogs have ot in them to be great dogs but most can achieve medioca The issue with this statement is as you admit - no experiance! i actually agree with the above meathods 95% of the time its fine. Your sort of stuffed when you find the 5% though, the old answer was worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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