utectok Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 How come everyone gets so excited and heated about dog training? I've never seen a thread on dog training that's stayed positive and helpful? In fact I don't post for dog training help anymore for that reason? But might be wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 Why should people that are like minded not have a passionate exchange of views on something that is important to them and of help to some? I nearly said go and watch come dancing or something but there is more heated debate on there than there is on here. They get record numbers of folk watching by the way! Hoe are any of the posts above not helpful? Apart from the electrocution suggestion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 The secret is no secret really. Restrict, hinder or discourage a dogs drive too mutch early on and this is what you get as you state with yours "No prizes for bravery". The people that brag about their dogs hunting qualities that have problems stopping their dogs, have problems training stop, not heel. With respect, a lab will do all of the above you say your dog does or did, why a spaniel? Controlling a springer whilst it hunts hard should be made easier through early training. This early training does not necessarily have to include any heelwork as far as using a leader is concerned. I wasn't aware that all labs came fully trained. Never said heelwork was the key. It is obedience and that means responding instantly to commands whether it is stop, go back, left, right, whatever. That usually has no negative influence on a dog's working ability as in courage and style. Whether you are doing beating or trials the best working dog in the world isn't much use if it isn't under control. A dog that does willingly walk to heel off leash is not only pleasure to own, but demonstrates your ability as a handler and reinforces your control over the dog which reflects when it is working away. If you can't control your dog at heel how can you expect to control it at distance? My ESS wouldn't win field trials because of physical, psychological and medical issues, not willingness or anything I did. She was a basket case from a rescue centre. When I got her at 18 month old she had many and varied issues including being gun shy, having locked hips and not knowing what her nose was for. If simply having a labrador was the secret to success then we all would have them wouldn't we? As it is, I've had three border collies and a GSD who worked a beating line under control. There is a common element and it isn't the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Nobody said labs came fully trained so I don't know what that is all about? Labs are not spaniels though, their role in the field is less demanding therefore, in my opinion, their training is not as intense and they don't have the natural drive a spaniel should have. We might have to agree to disagree on the rest. Too much discipline before you know the dogs hunting capabilities at a young age, is a negative thing and detrimental in the long term. Yes the pup needs to know recal stop and sit and such like but drilling obedience into a pup at too young an age can be a negative thing. However, back to the original post, the pup is 16 months of age and with any luck and by the sounds of it full of beans whilst on the lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Different but not "less demanding". if your meaning its harder to control a dog while actually out hunting within gunshot than many hundreds of yards out on a retrieve you are well off base. Just different that is all. i do however have the feeling that too much tight heelwork can make a hunting type dog a bit sticky at times, its certainly not generaly encoraged with true pointers that are expected to range much further out and faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Nobody said labs came fully trained so I don't know what that is all about? Labs are not spaniels though, their role in the field is less demanding therefore, in my opinion, their training is not as intense and they don't have the natural drive a spaniel should have. We might have to agree to disagree on the rest. Too much discipline before you know the dogs hunting capabilities at a young age, is a negative thing and detrimental in the long term. Yes the pup needs to know recal stop and sit and such like but drilling obedience into a pup at too young an age can be a negative thing. However, back to the original post, the pup is 16 months of age and with any luck and by the sounds of it full of beans whilst on the lead. I've covered the part about the dog reacting differently whilst on a leash. You are contradicting yourself. Yes the pup needs to know recal stop and sit and such like but drilling obedience into a pup at too young an age can be a negative thing What does obedience mean to you? If the pup needs to know recall, stop, sit and the such is that not obedience? I think you are getting hung up on obedience as purely meaning heelwork off the leash rather than in obeying commands. I'm talking about a dog obeying commands such as recall, stop and sit, and that is much easier to train when young and when the dog is closer to you. It doesn't have to include a leash. Control can be physical or vocal, include whistles and hand signals or sometimes just a look or change of posture. But, if you don't get the obedience in before you allow the dog to hunt you will make the job a hell of a lot harder. The only time drilling obedience into a pup will prove to be negative if it is done unsympathetically, i.e. bullying the pup or using excessive force. Edited November 21, 2012 by UKPoacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Different but not "less demanding". if your meaning its harder to control a dog while actually out hunting within gunshot than many hundreds of yards out on a retrieve you are well off base. Just different that is all. i do however have the feeling that too much tight heelwork can make a hunting type dog a bit sticky at times, its certainly not generaly encoraged with true pointers that are expected to range much further out and faster Different and less demanding on the dog. A spaniels job and the way in which it works is far more demanding on the dog. Without any doubt. Have you never controlled a spaniel at the same distances regarding retrieves as you have a lab? If you have not then I would suggest you have either not trained for it or you have never had a spaniel capable enough. Hunting hard and close under control for a find and flush for the gun is No1 for a spaniel but that does not mean long blind or marked seen retrieves can not be achieved, they should be expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 I've covered the part about the dog reacting differently whilst on a leash. You are contradicting yourself. What does obedience mean to you? If the pup needs to know recall, stop, sit and the such is that not obedience? I think you are getting hung up on obedience as purely meaning heelwork off the leash rather than in obeying commands. I'm talking about a dog obeying commands such as recall, stop and sit, and that is much easier to train when young and when the dog is closer to you. It doesn't have to include a leash. Control can be physical or vocal, include whistles and hand signals or sometimes just a look or change of posture. But, if you don't get the obedience in before you allow the dog to hunt you will make the job a hell of a lot harder. The only time drilling obedience into a pup will prove to be negative if it is done unsympathetically, i.e. bullying the pup or using excessive force. Wrong. Drilling obedience to too high a degree, no matter how sympathetically it's done, can and often does often, have a negative impact on future hunting ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Different but not "less demanding". if your meaning its harder to control a dog while actually out hunting within gunshot than many hundreds of yards out on a retrieve you are well off base. Just different that is all. i do however have the feeling that too much tight heelwork can make a hunting type dog a bit sticky at times, its certainly not generaly encoraged with true pointers that are expected to range much further out and faster Sorry Kent but I hunt my pointers off horseback and when out East on the tundra or West on the parraries pointers hunt and work upto a mile out. We watch through binoculars and handle with beeper modes on their collars. Several of these dogs in the past held obediance titles, and yes they walked to heel on and off lead. All of our pups start obediance at 8 weeks, as I dont want 6 months of bad habits to untrain, and none of them have been sticky. On the flushing side I have had 3 Springers and 5 Labs and again they all worked on and off lead. And yes UKPoacher you could call them off work as well. When managing a kennel of 35 flushers and pointers for a very high end shoot you had better be able to. In the end folks the amount of obediance you put on your dog is completely up to you. As is the point in your dogs life that you decide to teach it. As long as you are happy and enjoying your dog that is what counts. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Different and less demanding on the dog. A spaniels job and the way in which it works is far more demanding on the dog. Without any doubt. Have you never controlled a spaniel at the same distances regarding retrieves as you have a lab? If you have not then I would suggest you have either not trained for it or you have never had a spaniel capable enough. Hunting hard and close under control for a find and flush for the gun is No1 for a spaniel but that does not mean long blind or marked seen retrieves can not be achieved, they should be expected. A spaniel's "job" as you put it, is to do whatever is required whether that be hunt, flush and / or retrieve. Same can be said for labradors or any other commonly used breed. You seem to have some strange set ideas about working dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Wrong. Drilling obedience to too high a degree, no matter how sympathetically it's done, can and often does often, have a negative impact on future hunting ability. You'll have to explain by what you mean as 'Hunting ability' before I can answer that point. Similarly, given that Field Trials Champions are trained to a higher degree than those that don't win trophies, this would seem to undermine your last point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hunting ability, I mean the ability to face cover and hunt hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Different and less demanding on the dog. A spaniels job and the way in which it works is far more demanding on the dog. Without any doubt. Have you never controlled a spaniel at the same distances regarding retrieves as you have a lab? If you have not then I would suggest you have either not trained for it or you have never had a spaniel capable enough. Hunting hard and close under control for a find and flush for the gun is No1 for a spaniel but that does not mean long blind or marked seen retrieves can not be achieved, they should be expected. your digging a deeper hole. by those acounts a pointer or HPR is harder still. I have extensive experiance with those. Are they any harder to train no- just different. by the same counts a lab can hunt, there are thousands doing it every week of the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Sorry Kent but I hunt my pointers off horseback and when out East on the tundra or West on the parraries pointers hunt and work upto a mile out. We watch through binoculars and handle with beeper modes on their collars. Several of these dogs in the past held obediance titles, and yes they walked to heel on and off lead. All of our pups start obediance at 8 weeks, as I dont want 6 months of bad habits to untrain, and none of them have been sticky. On the flushing side I have had 3 Springers and 5 Labs and again they all worked on and off lead. And yes UKPoacher you could call them off work as well. When managing a kennel of 35 flushers and pointers for a very high end shoot you had better be able to. In the end folks the amount of obediance you put on your dog is completely up to you. As is the point in your dogs life that you decide to teach it. As long as you are happy and enjoying your dog that is what counts. NTTF If you go on the moors you wont see any true pointers and setters walking off lead. when a dog is resting its nose it will certainly be on leash. There are differences in many countrie, here a pointer or setter is not expected or desired to retrieve only find, flush and drop. That is not to say nobody anywere does things differently, any dog is capable of being taught to heel we used to have a huntsman who often had the hounds in at heel when they should have been questing out LOL. Agreed any dog can be taught to do mostly anything within its physical boundries- i am talking about GB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 your digging a deeper hole. by those acounts a pointer or HPR is harder still. I have extensive experiance with those. Are they any harder to train no- just different. by the same counts a lab can hunt, there are thousands doing it every week of the season If you re-read my quotes properly. There is no mention of harder or easier to train. The job a spaniel has to do is generally more demanding than that of a lab. On the dog. The pace and drive of a hard hunting spaniel. Re read the posts before making assumptions and going off on one. I dont know where harder comes from? Harder what? If you meant harder to train I made no mention of a spaniel being harder to train. A well bred spaniel is easy to train in the right hands. Again if you read the posts, I say training of a spaniel is more intense, simply because a spaniels job involves the whole job lot. Hunt, find, flush, stop to flush,mark,retrieve to hand. On the whole, that is more to train for im my opinion than what you would train for with a lab. HPR's were not mentioned in my posts at all an your attempt to impress everyone by saying you have extensive knowledge of them means sweet bog all to me pal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) You'll have to explain by what you mean as 'Hunting ability' before I can answer that point. Similarly, given that Field Trials Champions are trained to a higher degree than those that don't win trophies, this would seem to undermine your last point. & what exactly was my last point then? If you mean drilling obedience? Why?-- do you think every dog that wins a field trial has obedience drilled into it? The next time you watch a spaniel field trial take a look at the dogs getting ready to have their runs, most strain on the lead to their starting points. Most are not trained to heel on the lead, AT ALL. Edited November 21, 2012 by zeroin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) A spaniel's "job" as you put it, is to do whatever is required whether that be hunt, flush and / or retrieve. Same can be said for labradors or any other commonly used breed. You seem to have some strange set ideas about working dogs. If this is so then I will ask again............why a spaniel? Edited November 21, 2012 by zeroin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 your digging a deeper hole. by those acounts a pointer or HPR is harder still. I have extensive experiance with those. Are they any harder to train no- just different. by the same counts a lab can hunt, there are thousands doing it every week of the season And in many cases I have seen of labs hunting- badly. You are crazy if you think your average lab will face cover and hunt as hard a your average spaniel. Like-wise your HPR's, there are the odd exceptions to the rule but not many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hunting ability, I mean the ability to face cover and hunt hard. Rubbish! You think that instiling discipline into a dog ruins its ability to face cover and hunt hard? You are talking absolute rubbish. A dog's willingness to face cover is something you have little influence on. You can encourage it a little, but if a dog doesn't like getting scratched then there is virtually nothing you can do to make it face cover as willingly as a dog that doesn't mind getting scratched. I had one dog that would stop and point at cover if it found a bird there whilst another would demolish a whole bramble bush to get to it. Same breed, same training, different personalities. You seem to be saying one thing and then contradicting yourself especially about lab's and springer's working qualities. Do you actually read what you have previously written before writing your next point? There are springers that work like the lab's stereotype and labs that work like springer's stereotype. I've trained springers ranging from the tiny short legged, long bodied type to tall, muscular dogs that weigh over 25 kg. I've trained labs that never stop working at a manic pace and others that plod on steadily all day. Every dog is different. Anyone who says that all labs do this or all springers are like this doesn't know what they are talking about. You also don't seem to be able to break the connection of obedience with heel work. Obedience is simply getting the dog to obey commands, This could be at heel or at half a mile. Why are you so obsessed with making a point about heel work? It is one small part of the total training. Any dog that does not respond to commands is out of control by definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Rubbish! You think that instiling discipline into a dog ruins its ability to face cover and hunt hard? You are talking absolute rubbish. A dog's willingness to face cover is something you have little influence on. You can encourage it a little, but if a dog doesn't like getting scratched then there is virtually nothing you can do to make it face cover as willingly as a dog that doesn't mind getting scratched. I had one dog that would stop and point at cover if it found a bird there whilst another would demolish a whole bramble bush to get to it. Same breed, same training, different personalities. You seem to be saying one thing and then contradicting yourself especially about lab's and springer's working qualities. Do you actually read what you have previously written before writing your next point? There are springers that work like the lab's stereotype and labs that work like springer's stereotype. I've trained springers ranging from the tiny short legged, long bodied type to tall, muscular dogs that weigh over 25 kg. I've trained labs that never stop working at a manic pace and others that plod on steadily all day. Every dog is different. Anyone who says that all labs do this or all springers are like this doesn't know what they are talking about. Where do my quotes or posts say this? There are exceptions to the rule but labs can not and never will ( generally speaking) hold a candle to a springer (again, generally speaking). You also don't seem to be able to break the connection of obedience with heel work. Obedience is simply getting the dog to obey commands, This could be at heel or at half a mile. Why are you so obsessed with making a point about heel work? It is one small part of the total training. Any dog that does not respond to commands is out of control by definition. Now who's contradicting themselves Last point-It is not at all a part, or even a small part of training for some, for the same reasons I mention in my earliest post Drive, drive, drive.Hunt hunt hunt. Edited November 21, 2012 by zeroin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 FEN-TON!!!!!!!! Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Now who's contradicting themselves Last point-It is not at all a part, or even a small part of training for some, for the same reasons I mention in my earliest post Drive, drive, drive.Hunt hunt hunt. There is no contradiction on my part. Obedience does not mean heel work. It means getting a dog to obey. What part of that can you not inderstand? Have you a problem understanding something that contradicts your opinion? If you do not have any obedience then you have a dog that is out of control. Doesn't matter how brave or tireless it is. It is a liability and will cause problems all its life. "Drive, drive drive, hunt, hunt, hunt" is the mottto of those who can't train dogs. As I've said before, anyone can own a dog that works, very few can stop their dog working when necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 There is no contradiction on my part. Obedience does not mean heel work. It means getting a dog to obey. What part of that can you not inderstand? Have you a problem understanding something that contradicts your opinion? If you do not have any obedience then you have a dog that is out of control. Doesn't matter how brave or tireless it is. It is a liability and will cause problems all its life. "Drive, drive drive, hunt, hunt, hunt" is the mottto of those who can't train dogs. As I've said before, anyone can own a dog that works, very few can stop their dog working when necessary. It's the fear of those who can't train dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Maughan Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 (edited) the fact that your dog heels at all..means he knows what to do...the communication needs to be improved from your end... good luck Exactly! Im sorry if this has already been said but I dont have the time to read all the replies. My cocker bitch is 19mths old now, I got her 6mths ago in a completely untrained state, she hardly knew her name, she ran wildly off the lead (although not to any great distance) and pulled like mad when on it. Within 1 week I had her walking to heal with a slack lead, I did this by constant tugging on the lead and using the word 'heel' - now Im not talking about yanking the lead so hard the dog lifts off the ground or anything violent like that. First I had to step forward to realease the tension in the lead enough for me to give it a short, sharp tug backward at the same time as saying heel, depending on how hard she was pulling I would also stop which meant she wasnt making any forward progress, it didnt take her long to realise she wasnt getting anywhere! The jerk isnt intended to restrain or hurt, it just reinforces the command heel which she already knows. Towards the end I found myself watching her closely and anticipating the lead getting tigher and tugging her just before she got the lead at full stretch, that way she learned the feel of a slack lead was the only one I wanted. I took her on 3 or 4 short (10-15min) heel training walks every day for about a week, I recon she had grasped the concept in 3 days but took a week to be polished. Dont use a choker chain or those stupid electric collars, there really is no need. The dog is clever and she already knows how to heel, she just needs you to show her how to do it on the lead. Ive even now got a very quiet heel tone in my whistle which she recognises and responds to. Remember its about patience and its never the dogs fault, only poor communication on our part. Good luck Edited November 22, 2012 by Alan Maughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Well this is going nowwere fast. Someone needs here adding to the ignoor list i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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