al4x Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Its a gene more common in show dogs than working strains which is why most chocolates are not seen in the field. That said you can take a show dog and train it for the field if you really want and you can put chocolate genes into a working mix but there are reasons you don't see them in the field and you don't see them coming from true working strains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Chocs are a genetic mix of black and yellow, the colour can occur in both show and work lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Its just down to either your prejudices or limited experiance. Like i say its just a mixed colour gene not a working one, Yea your right i am racist as far as dogs go(dont like em brown ones) and my limited experience of only 35 years owning,training working dogs probably makes me a novice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulpicide Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Ollie your like me Terriers are what we use, gundogs are a doddle compared to training a terrier up to a high standard, advice from vets now seems to be learned on courses run by petfood manufacturers and not much by hands on experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 21, 2012 Report Share Posted November 21, 2012 Chocs are a genetic mix of black and yellow, the colour can occur in both show and work lines. Only if you breed with a dogwth the right gene, there is a reason most working litters don't contain chocolates it's because the owners uderstand the gene they want to avoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Only if you breed with a dogwth the right gene, there is a reason most working litters don't contain chocolates it's because the owners uderstand the gene they want to avoid The way i understand it its not a single gene but a blend of yellow with black (though i am no genetisist) so it can occur as long as yellow and black are both present? hence thats going to be real hard to compleatly remove. At one time working breeders had a strong aversion to fox red now such pups sell at a premium. if i wasa breeding comercialy i should also avoid it were possible for reasons of prejudices that exist unjustly, if i found a good line and it was a choice of black or choc i should choose the latter for my own puropses as they are a good colour to hide by comparsiom. Point is colour is meaningless- lines are not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 The way i understand it its not a single gene but a blend of yellow with black (though i am no genetisist) so it can occur as long as yellow and black are both present? hence thats going to be real hard to compleatly remove. At one time working breeders had a strong aversion to fox red now such pups sell at a premium. if i wasa breeding comercialy i should also avoid it were possible for reasons of prejudices that exist unjustly, if i found a good line and it was a choice of black or choc i should choose the latter for my own puropses as they are a good colour to hide by comparsiom. Point is colour is meaningless- lines are not Colour is meaningless but you would rather have a choc one as opposed to a black one ! It is not unjust prejudice , it is a prejudice based on the FACT that i have never seen a choc lab perform in the field to a standard that i have seen many many black labs do. I am not saying ALL black labs are the mutts nutts,in fact a friend has one that would be more useful as fox bait.But the fact remains you are a lot more likely to get one that is if it is not a choc one from a long line of show dogs as the majority of them are. If you have a decent working one good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 the facts are simple its generally show lines carry the gene so basically you are dealing with show lines rather than working, yes you can train a show strain but how many choose to. As its a gene there may be some coming through where someone has introduced them to a working strain where you obviously stand more chance of getting a decent one. Simple facts are look at most chocolate labs and they will be big built and clearly not workers, most breeders of working labs wouldn't introduce the gene or breed from a dog that carried it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 Colour is meaningless but you would rather have a choc one as opposed to a black one ! It is not unjust prejudice , it is a prejudice based on the FACT that i have never seen a choc lab perform in the field to a standard that i have seen many many black labs do. I am not saying ALL black labs are the mutts nutts,in fact a friend has one that would be more useful as fox bait.But the fact remains you are a lot more likely to get one that is if it is not a choc one from a long line of show dogs as the majority of them are. If you have a decent working one good for you. firstly i dont have a choclate lab, mine is dark yellow i know three people who have had great sucess with thier chocolates personally and like i say i think John Halstead might have actually made one chocky up. Would i have one over a black? yes as they are easier to hide on the marsh. the whole question of showlines is a no no but that doesnt mean work lines have no chocolates. i wouldn't have a show lab near my place but i aint a big fan of overly trialed lines either. it seems three types of labs are now evident work, trial and show. no question they sometimes meet or converge, that can be either a good or bad thing. The point is actual colour is meaningless past what you see when you look at a dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 the facts are simple its generally show lines carry the gene so basically you are dealing with show lines rather than working, yes you can train a show strain but how many choose to. As its a gene there may be some coming through where someone has introduced them to a working strain where you obviously stand more chance of getting a decent one. Simple facts are look at most chocolate labs and they will be big built and clearly not workers, most breeders of working labs wouldn't introduce the gene or breed from a dog that carried it simple. your still not getting it were black and yellow exist they might converge. the fact that there might be more choclates in show lines than working is irrelivent they do exist in both and it aint always through show blood. perhaps someone more qualified in genetics might explain this, i only know the fact and the point being made Colour has no bearing on a dogs performance- its background beyond that is another question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbart Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 A black lab and a yellow does not produce brown ! FACT It "can" if they both posses the B gene and pass it on (yes i looked it up) years ago they used to drown brown pups at birth because they were regarded as useless as working dogs until they realised they could sell them as pets,then these pets would have pups and be sold as pets and so on thus expanding the B gene.So most of the chocolate ones we see today are from a long line of "pets" and not from working strain. So it is not simply a colour thing,it is the fact that most of them are from non working strains hence they will not be as natural a hunter as a dog from a long line of working dogs. Hence you are more likely to get a good working lab if it is not chocolate in colour. Fact !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 22, 2012 Report Share Posted November 22, 2012 It won't go in BB you know the facts I know them but without going into working strain genetics out friend will never get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 what the heck, have you read what i said? more common yes, none occuring no! does the colour gene ITSELF effect its work no! Does a proliferation of show / pet blood effect a working line ? yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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