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Dominance theory.. why it's outdated and wrong.


ETO
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IMO with dogs you can train with your gut, you can learn from other trainers, or you can read up on it.

 

I'm a "gut" person, but I always know what I am trying to achieve with a dog (which is where I think a lot of trainers play their part). If I'm stuck with a particular problem I will ask a good friend of mine who also happens to be a nationally known and respected trainer.

 

Reading up on it is recreation, there are some good tips and there is a lot of over complicated junk, I've given up on it.

 

I train and work with the dog in front of me, if is doesn't comply it is because 1) it doesn't understand or 2) it thinks it knows best. I am not going to write reams of paper, any dog that thinks it knows better than me is in for a rude awakening. For a soft cocker that will be repetition, reward and praise until it "understands" that "knowing better" is not an option. If it is a hard headed springer it may well be a slap on the backside and a couple of days confined to barracks. Showing teeth, dominance and the requirement to dominate just don't happen and if they do, and I have brought the pup up, then I consider it a screw loose dog and it's days are numbered.

 

Maybe not PC, or educational, or indeed showing me to be particularly "educated" as far as dog physcology is concerned... but I'm not really interested in dog physcology, I'm interested in my dogs being healthy, happy to see me, working for me and putting game in my game bag.

 

I agree.

 

I had two police dogs, as far apart in character as you could get. One was so close to the edge I had to physically dominate by forcing him to the ground by his scruff on a daily basis. This was a dog that would clear a pub on his own. Finally cured him by reducing the animal protein content in his food. That made him calmer and easier to handle. The other needed spiking up and reassuring in his early training and I only had to glare at him to get the same reaction as flattening the other dog. Both made excellent police dogs.

 

You have to train according to the dog's ability, character and age and understand that no two dogs are the same.

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If you worked with a pack of hounds you would soon see that there are dominant hounds (Dogs) the dominant hound just by body posture will make a less dominant hound leave a carcass when feeding.

 

You say in one of the post on this post Quote: " Within my "pack" all the dogs are equal" I am sorry but this in nonsense, and I can prove it without even being there.

Go to the butchers and buy one juicy knuckle bone. Throw it out into your garden and let all your dogs out, then come in the house and leave them alone even if you hear a scuffle. Go out ten mins later and one of the dogs will have the bone, that dog is your dominant dog!

 

Dogs live by using a pecking order, and people train and work dogs to a good standard do so by being dominant ie: the dog does things to please you the dominant member of the group, as well as if you do the job right the dog see the work as his reward and should enjoys it.

 

Erm seeing as my dogs are raw fed - they would happily share a bone.. quite often they do. ;) They share pigs heads too and I'm hoping to soon get a goat carcass for them to share :D I have dogs with stronger personalities - yes but I don't call them dominant, they're just stronger characters - wilful teenagers if you will. I have a possession guarder - yes but only from humans - and not because he is trying to dominate, it's because he doesn't understand due to being given mixed signals.

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Erm seeing as my dogs are raw fed - they would happily share a bone.. quite often they do. ;) They share pigs heads too and I'm hoping to soon get a goat carcass for them to share :D I have dogs with stronger personalities - yes but I don't call them dominant, they're just stronger characters - wilful teenagers if you will. I have a possession guarder - yes but only from humans - and not because he is trying to dominate, it's because he doesn't understand due to being given mixed signals.

the mind boggels,. and I thought Beatrix potter was bad enough for humanizing animals.

quick edit: you should not feed pork to dogs, but I would think you know that.

Edited by Actionpigeons
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My own stance on this subject is stated on two other posts alpha animals do try it on with their trainers and as I said SOME do but not ALL the response from this lass was to rubbish my advice something I would not do.Like many others I take tips and advice from friends other trainers and yes books, and try to apply it to the dog in hand.EXPERIENCE does count for some knowledge .We have lots of new dog owners/trainers on this forum and to post very strong and may I say uncompromising views backed up with lots of links to experts will not help these people but will over complicate matters as always this is only my opinion EACH TO THERE OWN.

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the mind boggels,. and I thought Beatrix potter was bad enough for humanizing animals.

quick edit: you should not feed pork to dogs, but I would think you know that.

 

You can feed pork to dogs. Providing it is British - which I feed. ;) As the wasters disease is tested for within British pork. You can also feed Chicken to dogs too! And bones and roadkill.. depends what takes your fancy.

 

I don't humanise my animals - they are still treated as they are - how I talk about them is different ;)

And the correct word is Anthropomorphizing. :D

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You can feed pork to dogs. Providing it is British - which I feed. ;) As the wasters disease is tested for within British pork. You can also feed Chicken to dogs too! And bones and roadkill.. depends what takes your fancy.

 

I don't humanise my animals - they are still treated as they are - how I talk about them is different ;)

And the correct word is Anthropomorphizing. :D

I know you can feed bones to dogs, I worked with hounds all my working life and have skinned and fed fallen stock. pork is a no, no mater where it comes from but that's up to you.

I work all my dogs, they are not pets that do a few tricks.

copying and pasting other people research on here and then slanging it off is not the thing to do unless you have some experience.

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I know you can feed bones to dogs, I worked with hounds all my working life and have skinned and fed fallen stock. pork is a no, no mater where it comes from but that's up to you.

I work all my dogs, they are not pets that do a few tricks.

copying and pasting other people research on here and then slanging it off is not the thing to do unless you have some experience.

 

And what classes as experience? Whoop di do you've had god knows how many dogs - doesn't mean you know everything though does it ;) I've had 24 hamsters - does not mean that I am an expert in small rodents..

For my dogs to be able to work, train, do tricks and obey commands - they must trust me and get a reward for it. You do not need experience to get an animal to trust you. You do not need experience to be able to understand an animal - observation and patience is what you need. And you do not need to have experience to observe and be patient.

 

But being as you are so experienced yourself - what makes your word and opinion right over those words that have been copied and pasted from other people's work - of whom have been in their chosen field probably equally or longer than the number of years you have owned dogs?

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And what classes as experience? Whoop di do you've had god knows how many dogs - doesn't mean you know everything though does it ;) I've had 24 hamsters - does not mean that I am an expert in small rodents..

For my dogs to be able to work, train, do tricks and obey commands - they must trust me and get a reward for it. You do not need experience to get an animal to trust you. You do not need experience to be able to understand an animal - observation and patience is what you need. And you do not need to have experience to observe and be patient.

 

But being as you are so experienced yourself - what makes your word and opinion right over those words that have been copied and pasted from other people's work - of whom have been in their chosen field probably equally or longer than the number of years you have owned dogs?

I'm not the one that has copying and pasted and then slagging the research am I.

read a lot of your post on here, and there are a lot. most are bearable but you clearly don't know what you are talking about on this one

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I'm not the one that has copying and pasted and then slagging the research am I.

read a lot of your post on here, and there are a lot. most are bearable but you clearly don't know what you are talking about on this one

 

Firstly you did not answer my question. What is the definition of experience and if you are so experienced yourself what makes your word infinite against that of equally or even more experienced persons other than yourself?

 

Where did I slag off any of the research? I merely said that I agreed with what Jean Donaldson says regarding dogs dominating humans.. The rest is irrelevant to the research that was produced based on questions I was asked.

 

The bottom line - I don't believe dogs dominate humans and you can disagree or agree with that all you like - but I have produced research where as everyone else has not. You are quite welcome not to read anything I post if you barely find it tolerable. No skin off my nose. I mean surely an experienced person such as yourself would've worked out long ago that if you do not want to read something by a certain person or you find them intolerable - you simply ignore them - yes?

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Firstly you did not answer my question. What is the definition of experience and if you are so experienced yourself what makes your word infinite against that of equally or even more experienced persons other than yourself?

 

Where did I slag off any of the research? I merely said that I agreed with what Jean Donaldson says regarding dogs dominating humans.. The rest is irrelevant to the research that was produced based on questions I was asked.

 

The bottom line - I don't believe dogs dominate humans and you can disagree or agree with that all you like - but I have produced research where as everyone else has not. You are quite welcome not to read anything I post if you barely find it tolerable. No skin off my nose. I mean surely an experienced person such as yourself would've worked out long ago that if you do not want to read something by a certain person or you find them intolerable - you simply ignore them - yes?

 

OK. So if a dog does not dominate humans how do attack dogs work? Persuasion? Debate?

 

StickCriminal.jpg

 

I think you are bonkers!

Edited by UKPoacher
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Firstly you did not answer my question. What is the definition of experience and if you are so experienced yourself what makes your word infinite against that of equally or even more experienced persons other than yourself?

 

Where did I slag off any of the research? I merely said that I agreed with what Jean Donaldson says regarding dogs dominating humans.. The rest is irrelevant to the research that was produced based on questions I was asked.

 

The bottom line - I don't believe dogs dominate humans and you can disagree or agree with that all you like - but I have produced research where as everyone else has not. You are quite welcome not to read anything I post if you barely find it tolerable. No skin off my nose. I mean surely an experienced person such as yourself would've worked out long ago that if you do not want to read something by a certain person or you find them intolerable - you simply ignore them - yes?

I don't really understand some of you quotes. where did I say my word is better than any one else's. what I have said is you saying there is no such thing as a dominant dog is rubbish. talking rubbish is talking rubbish I'm afraid and I could only read so much without having to post.

I dont live that far from you and I shoot over or fly hawks over my dogs just about every day threw out the hunting season. so if your game lets see your dogs work?

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Attack dogs or Personal protection dogs are taught to bite on command. They are encouraged to use they're mouth You do not need to have a dominant dog for this. My friend has the softest German Shepherd ever but you put a foot wrong in her owners direction she is on high alert, she will not attack unless a command is given.

 

Actionpigeons I came on here to get my dogs into working - they have not yet experienced work and I have not yet had chance to see what problems lie where - sorry to let you down though. And I would not want to work with someone who is as arrogant as yourself.

 

Call it all rubbish - thats your opinion. And thats your opinion. I see it as wrong, but I have an open mind so I was open to hearing the other side of the argument, unfortunately that wasn't given - I wasn't challenged with an academic level of thought - my apologies I deemed you as people with open minds and thought processes longer than your own noses - I was wrong.

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ETO

You bring the wrath of the forum onto yourself. You, by your own posts, are 21 years old. You have made great research into dogs and their training but have yet to take a dog into the field. Please do not take offence at some posts but you can read and theorise as much as you want but putting that into practise is totally different. Please continue with your research as there is always more than one way to skin a cat, but also listen to those that have practical experience as they may know more than those who are articulate and write clever articles.

 

Bill

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Attack dogs or Personal protection dogs are taught to bite on command. They are encouraged to use they're mouth You do not need to have a dominant dog for this. My friend has the softest German Shepherd ever but you put a foot wrong in her owners direction she is on high alert, she will not attack unless a command is given.

 

 

Sorry but this is going a bit far, you are saying that a "friend" has a German shepherd that by the sounds of it isn't a police dog and is trained to attack!!! Very worrying.

My dogs would protect me if it was required, but that is because i am there leader and there number 1 goal is to please me, at no point would i need to command them to do it they would sense when a real danger existed from me and respond as required, and of that i have doubt.

You need to re read what you have written, it comes across as you who is the one being all defensive and quick to rubbish other peoples way of thinking. If you feel that you are doing the best training that you can then brilliant but don't knock others with masses of hands on experience.

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Attack dogs or Personal protection dogs are taught to bite on command. They are encouraged to use they're mouth You do not need to have a dominant dog for this. My friend has the softest German Shepherd ever but you put a foot wrong in her owners direction she is on high alert, she will not attack unless a command is given.

 

Actionpigeons I came on here to get my dogs into working - they have not yet experienced work and I have not yet had chance to see what problems lie where - sorry to let you down though. And I would not want to work with someone who is as arrogant as yourself.

 

Call it all rubbish - thats your opinion. And thats your opinion. I see it as wrong, but I have an open mind so I was open to hearing the other side of the argument, unfortunately that wasn't given - I wasn't challenged with an academic level of thought - my apologies I deemed you as people with open minds and thought processes longer than your own noses - I was wrong.

 

I've worked with dogs that even untrained would have killed a man foolish enough to let the dog dominate him whether they were academics or not. And we are not talking about hunger driven attacks such as a wolf might do. One new dog hospitalised a handler just because he was stupid enough to try and use the dog's toy as a means of dominating him without having the presence needed to control the dog. Big mistake. My first dog was constantly trying to climb to the top of the pack over me and needed daily correcting. Even small pet dogs will try and dominate a family if the owners allow it. You obviously do not know the signs of dominance or are blind to them. Any dog can be trained to bite, even a spaniel, but only a truly dominant dog will work out of sight of the handler, often on its own initiative, and bring down a man.

 

You constantly say that you are open to debate but will not accept anything that you don't agree with. Tell you what, pop down to your local police dog training school and ask them if you can play with their raw recruits. Then tell us that dogs don't try and dominate humans.

 

There is a wealth of expertise on this site and you are flying in the face of it with your crackpot theories.

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And thats your opinion. I see it as wrong, but I have an open mind

 

Then surely your thread title should be 'Dominance Theory: IS it outdated and wrong, not WHY it is outdated and wrong.

 

That indicates that you have already decided and are not really interested in any other version.

 

That said lets return to the topic.

 

Dominance is a word often misused to describe a behaviour in dogs and their relationship to their owners.

 

Dogs do require a defined heirarchy with a clear 'leader' as it satisfies their natural pack instincts. They also, like people, respond well to routine.

 

Dogs will often try to challenge the authority figure, especially as they reach their 'teens' in much the same way that people do. This can take passive forms such as not responding to commands, or aggressive forms like food and belonging aggression.

 

This is not as much striving for dominance as trying to reach the highest they can in the heirachy, which is perfectly normal.

 

However, this is the time when the leader must be in control, and this is much easier if the rules are set from day one.

 

Letting the dog on the sofa, then not letting the dog on the sofa confuses them as they can't figure why the rules have changed.

 

Similarly (and something I see fairly regularly) is people that can't get their dog to recall and then smack it for misbehaving when it comes back. Next time it won't come back again, because it doesn't associate the smack with its refusal to recall, it sees the smack as a punishment for coming back.

 

Any form of punishment with dogs (and I in no way condone hitting a dog for ANY reason) must be instantaneous when the 'offence' is comitted or it has no idea what it is being punished for, and assuming it does is just assigning them with human characteristics.

 

This is when the leader (you) must be consistent and confident or they will get walked all over.

 

Again, all this is not necessarily dominance behaviour, but is often labelled this way. So the question is not really does dominance behaviour exist because in cases it can, but rather is the exhibited behaviour being mis-diagnosed as an attempt at dominance.

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One thing is certain they will never be worth taking shooting, simply because you have to have complete control and letting them do what they want isn't an option. Its a nice idea thinking you can join a shooting website and know more about dogs and working them than everyone else but there are a fair few on here who do know what they are talking about. I know if I didn't dominate mine then I would never see her on a shoot day she would just hunt, its usually a close run thing but we have a certain understanding.

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One thing is certain they will never be worth taking shooting, simply because you have to have complete control and letting them do what they want isn't an option. Its a nice idea thinking you can join a shooting website and know more about dogs and working them than everyone else but there are a fair few on here who do know what they are talking about. I know if I didn't dominate mine then I would never see her on a shoot day she would just hunt, its usually a close run thing but we have a certain understanding.

 

I seem to be loosing the battle this year..... :( ......electric collar wired directly to his gonads next year! :lol:

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Its that time of year, by this time in the season they know exactly what they are doing especially if you beat with them. Mine sticks to the edge of what she can get away with though is far better when there are lots about than none so on that front its a blessing. Its almost good watching the spaniel owners getting towards the end of their tethers makes me feel much better!

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Firstly you did not answer my question. What is the definition of experience and if you are so experienced yourself what makes your word infinite against that of equally or even more experienced persons other than yourself?

 

Where did I slag off any of the research? I merely said that I agreed with what Jean Donaldson says regarding dogs dominating humans.. The rest is irrelevant to the research that was produced based on questions I was asked.

 

The bottom line - I don't believe dogs dominate humans and you can disagree or agree with that all you like - but I have produced research where as everyone else has not. You are quite welcome not to read anything I post if you barely find it tolerable. No skin off my nose. I mean surely an experienced person such as yourself would've worked out long ago that if you do not want to read something by a certain person or you find them intolerable - you simply ignore them - yes?

it does

Sorry E.T.O You have produced another persons research not your own call it domination or aggression towards humans it happens.
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