thinxs Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Hi Can anyone help? I'm considering getting my first gun dog to train. I have already decided that I don't want a lab as I want a smaller dog. So thinking along the lines of a spaniel of some sort, although I'm concerned about if it's a springer that they can be a bit over excitable(mad). I have come across Boykin and Field Spaniels, are they a differnt type of spaniel altogether? Are they a bit more steadier? How do they compare in size, temperament and ability? I came across these when googgling as I want a completely liver(brown) dog. Are there any breeders of these in the UK? I mainly shoot pigeons, abit of rough shooting a little bit of wild fouling, and rabbits with rifle. Any help or advice would be much appreiciated. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essex Keeper Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I've got ess awesome bitch chilled out at home works hard in the field I'm two looking for a new ess pup but the one I'm looking for is like rocking horse **** I know what I want just cart find it The few I've found are puppy farms and that's not for me Anyway back to your question ess are fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I pick up my ESS on sunday was hard to choose what to get but decided on a lovely bitch. I cant wait to start training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 Boykins are from the USA and I don't think there are any breeders in th Uk Field spaniels are very much a minority breed and I' be never seen one on the field only at dog shows If you want a liver spaniel a cocker would be the one to choose However, a good dog is never a bad colour,don't restrict your choice on colour or breed but what is most successful at your type of shooting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 2, 2013 Report Share Posted January 2, 2013 I'd stick to a ESS or cocker as they are tried and tested and come from a larger gene pool. I have a liver cocker, it was a gamble really as a first dog for me, but she is fantastic and has been very easy to train (to my standards). They are sometimes mental, over enthusiastic, SO eager to please and prone to think they know better but a real joy to work with and real little characters that punch well above their weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Hi Can anyone help? I'm considering getting my first gun dog to train. I have already decided that I don't want a lab as I want a smaller dog. So thinking along the lines of a spaniel of some sort, although I'm concerned about if it's a springer that they can be a bit over excitable(mad). I have come across Boykin and Field Spaniels, are they a differnt type of spaniel altogether? Are they a bit more steadier? How do they compare in size, temperament and ability? I came across these when googgling as I want a completely liver(brown) dog. Are there any breeders of these in the UK? I mainly shoot pigeons, abit of rough shooting a little bit of wild fouling, and rabbits with rifle. Any help or advice would be much appreiciated. Thank you. Bad temperament can exist in all breeds, check out both parents if in any doubt. I would hate to shoot rabbits with a rifle using a spanner "too much stress by far" . A work bred lab bitch can be quite a lot smaller than a big show lines dog so look before you leap generally retrievers are better suited to most of that which you mention Fowling, pigeon hide, rifle work. forget the minority breeds and a cocker is too small for wildfowling if geese and running water are involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Just get a tried and tested breed that has proved itself in the field. There are lots of nice looking gundog breeds about, but not so many that you can be sure of ending up with a good working companion. Don't fall into the trap of buying on looks alone, buy a working breed, from a working line, with working parent. As Kent says working lab bitches are not that big. I have just put this dog over my lab bitch, as you can see he is only a small dog, about the same size as my bitch. I know a bit of advertising, cant help myself....lol Edited January 3, 2013 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Just get a tried and tested breed that has proved itself in the field. I'm fairly sure Actionp means a tried and tested breed that has proved itself in the UK field. Because Boykins are nothing but tried and tested gundogs that have proved themselves in many fields - most prominently dove and goose fields. Now given that the original poster is "want(ing) a completely liver (brown) dog," he might want to think about a different shade of "liver" - golden liver - as the Sussex is another spaniel that dances a pretty fair turn afield too. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) As Cracker says Quote: "I'm fairly sure Actionp means a tried and tested breed that has proved itself in the UK field. Because Boykins are nothing but tried and tested gundogs that have proved themselves in many fields - most prominently dove and goose fields." That is just what I mean, as the problem with getting other breeds is finding a good working line in the UK that people are working and can be seen working. Edited January 3, 2013 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I`ve seen all manner of dogs in the field and have yet to see anything performing better than a Lab, Springer or Cocker. I know it`s` nice to have something different and there will be folk on hear who disagree because their whatever breed is a fantastic hunter or retriever and it might be, but if you want to hedge your bets and have a tried and tested breed go for one of the above three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I seriously doubt you could even get a good proven working line Boykin here, if you did it would cost 4 times what it should due to rarity value alone. it wouldn't surprise me to find such an odd ball selling for more as a pup than a recently started Lab or ESS and I know which would be the better buy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkfanz Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 i,m training a new female springer she,s 8 months old now an comeing on good she towers over all the males around me,thought i,d done the wrong thing at first but she,s calming down nicely will use her for pigeons and rough shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson_tom Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 If you like springers then get a springer, they are quite mad but anybody with one will tell you they wouldn't change them for the world. Mine is currently sitting at home with my wife and son probably asleep in front of the wood burner like she has been all day. When i get in and walk through the door she will have a mad 5 minutes then go back to sleep thats until i pick up her lead and put my boots on then all hell breaks loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I seriously doubt you could even get a good proven working line Boykin here, if you did it would cost 4 times what it should due to rarity value alone. it wouldn't surprise me to find such an odd ball selling for more as a pup than a recently started Lab or ESS and I know which would be the better buy Kent, reckon it would depend on who did the "starting" with the Lab or ESS and where the "oddball" came from. Boykins came into, and out of, the whelping box retrieving. So if there were a working pair bred in the UK, with a provenance of working, you probably couldn't wrong except on establishing a price. the problem with getting other breeds is finding a good working line in the UK that people are working and can be seen working. Actionpigeon, apropos a recent thread here (I think it was here) about the scarcity of decent Epagneul Bretons in the UK (which must admit really surprised me), what do you attribute that poor quality to? In the US Brittanies (no spaniel attached to their name anymore) are the most "decorated" of all gundogs - insofar as dual champions (field and bench). No other breed comes close. I am not a huge Brittany fan (namely because they get their field trial "points" by running in their own breed-exclusive trials), but they are nevertheless legit working gundogs with a lot of versatility for handling game. Why would you think they have not developed accordingly in the UK? MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Kent, reckon it would depend on who did the "starting" with the Lab or ESS and where the "oddball" came from. Boykins came into, and out of, the whelping box retrieving. So if there were a working pair bred in the UK, with a provenance of working, you probably couldn't wrong except on establishing a price. [/color][/font][/background] Actionpigeon, apropos a recent thread here (I think it was here) about the scarcity of decent Epagneul Bretons in the UK (which must admit really surprised me), what do you attribute that poor quality to? In the US Brittanies (no spaniel attached to their name anymore) are the most "decorated" of all gundogs - insofar as dual champions (field and bench). No other breed comes close. I am not a huge Brittany fan (namely because they get their field trial "points" by running in their own breed-exclusive trials), but they are nevertheless legit working gundogs with a lot of versatility for handling game. Why would you think they have not developed accordingly in the UK? MG As I said before it would be great to have a dog like the Brittany that could do all you wanted of different breeds all rolled in to one dog. I have seen a lot of Brittany's work and more the pity I am sorry to say I have never seen a good one, some have been ok but not what I would call good. why, I don't know as I cant put it down just to training as some of the lads I know that have them make first class dogs out of the more shall we say, normal breeds. Lots of lads get them that fly hawks hoping they have a pointer and a spaniel in one dog, They end up with a dog that is not a good pointer or a good spaniel, a Jack of all trades but a Master of none. Their success in the US could be down to the type of country they are working them over, I really don't know. We have the best working dogs in the world in the UK, so why people go for the more obscure breeds when we don't have the working lines in this country I really don't know, unless they are trying to stand out in a crowd. I keep my dogs just for work,, so I want the best type of dog I can get my hands on, I also don't want to spend hrs, weeks, and months, training a dog to fail because the breed just does not have it in it due to it being bred for looks rather than its working ability. If I wanted a dog for the moors I would have a English pointer. A dog for the rough and I needed a pointer it would be a German pointer. A beating dog/rough shooting dog, a Cocker or Springer. A dog for picking up or hide work, wild fowling, a lab. I am lucky and keep a few dogs, I give each dog the work it was bred for. If you can only have one dog, you have get a dog that fits in with most of the work you are going to give it. All the above have good strong working lines in the UK, and with a little work you will end up with a dog that will do what you have trained it to do. so why look at other breeds just because you think they are a bit different and after all your hard work ends up a disappointment. Edited for bad spelling, seen a few....lol Edited January 4, 2013 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Cracker, IF can be a very big word! Lets ask the question to the 1000's of site members. ANYONE KNOW OF A GOOD, PROVEN WORKING DOG OR BITCH BOYKIN IN THE UK? Preferably one that can stand up to the best Labs, ESS and Cockers we do have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Actionpigeons said "We have the best working dogs in the world in the UK, so why people go for the more obscure breeds when we don't have the working lines in this country I really don't know, unless they are trying to stand out in a crowd," I don't see how you could say more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 We have the best working dogs in the world in the UK, so why people go for the more obscure breeds when we don't have the working lines in this country I really don't know, unless they are trying to stand out in a crowd. To the OP work out how much wildfowling and go from there, the rifle shooting with a spaniel is likely to be a no no or very hard work to achieve what you want so you may be best restricting things to simply wildfowling and general shotgun shooting. From your description I'd suggest a lab but just don't get one of the liver coloured ones I've gone with a minority choice and couldn't be happier so it can work, if I had dogs for beating, game shooting and deer and foxes then I'd need a kennel a new missus and a number of dogs. Instead I have one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 . If I wanted a dog for the moors I would have a English pointer. A beating dog/rough shooting dog, a Cocker or Springer. A dog for picking up or hide work, wild fowling, a lab. Just a few generalisations I think I see no need for a pointer when working on a driven grouse moor. I find a labrador can be perfectly suitable as a beating dog on both grouse & pheasant. Cockers make great picking up dogs, particularly on grouse. It can just depend on the dog, they're all wired different. On the main subject, I'd never have anything other than a labrador, cocker & springer. I've no use for a pointer as I don't own the ground to run one on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 the rifle shooting with a spaniel is likely to be a no no or very hard work I'd quite happily take a cocker out with the rifle, it just depends on what you're looking for it to do. I shoot rabbits in rocky ground & they're often difficult to find as they blend in, a spaniel does this no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Just a few generalisations I think I see no need for a pointer when working on a driven grouse moor. I find a labrador can be perfectly suitable as a beating dog on both grouse & pheasant. Cockers make great picking up dogs, particularly on grouse. It can just depend on the dog, they're all wired different. On the main subject, I'd never have anything other than a labrador, cocker & springer. I've no use for a pointer as I don't own the ground to run one on. As regards Driven grouse a pointer is useless as they generally are not encouraged to retrieve Though the word driven was not used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 I'd quite happily take a cocker out with the rifle, it just depends on what you're looking for it to do. I shoot rabbits in rocky ground & they're often difficult to find as they blend in, a spaniel does this no problem. Generally walk tight to heel, stop when you stop, sit and stay almost indefinitely as you crawl away and not fidget or put its nose down till told . Is your any good for this? I have only seen one ESS get close to this and the owner was always sort of stressed looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Generally walk tight to heel, stop when you stop, sit and stay almost indefinitely as you crawl away and not fidget or put its nose down till told . Is your any good for this? I have only seen one ESS get close to this and the owner was always sort of stressed looking Don't do a lot of crawling about where I live we have big stone walls to hide behind. if I sit my spaniel on it's **** it does so until I tell it otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 4, 2013 Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 you'd think twice about putting it on an injured fox though.... very rare occurrence but I have had a couple this summer where a second shot wasn't an option due to houses and the dog is spot on for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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