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A pointer might well work close, use full IF the birds will hold while you approach for the flush. A dog that points aint a lot of use beating woodland as it will just go unseen learning to road in - it then becomes a non pointing pointer, might as well have bought a spaniel then. we must all buy the dog we like if that's a pp fair do but don't expect not to hit these hazards because of what amounts to marketing. The continentals are not known for letting their best go for export, the GSP, GWP, Visla etc all suffered from this in the past, over time we weeded the wheat from the chaff some. The very best of most breeds here or any country will be booked by personal contacts before they are born sometimes before they are bred, the chance of such a dog going to a non Portuguese speaking unknown 1st time Brit tainer ?

 

Kent,

 

I did say that Hprs are worked as pickers and not on the beaters line with the flushers...I also said why should not be done. I agree in part about the european trainers/breeders, its not always true that we get second choice dogs...depend how you do your homework and how much planning you put into it, if I tell you the story about me buying a PP, you will be bored after 5 minutes...it was a big strugle at first and then got easy.

I have dome all the hard homework and made some very good contacts and portuguese its not a problem(I have a very good fluent speaking portuguese friend) and hopefully me and Cos will get some decent dogs, still I know that there is a risk involved.....Lemon comes back to my mind....but its a risk that we all take when we buy a puppy.

 

About 6-8 months ago, a very good Field trial Trainer, was taking a group of people for a lesson...some HPRs and some cockers, the lesson was...the dreaded first time BANG.....first bang went off at 100 yard with the usual 22 dummy pistol....unfortunally the cocker broke thruw the line..not to be see for 15 min...very gun shy...unfortunally the dog as become just a pet.

 

So...I expect a lemon of a dog....with the hope that he might turn into a cherrie, without forgetting that,it will become a decent dog, only if you dedicate yourself to it and try to teach the basic.

 

Mark

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For a moment Al4x I thought you were going to tell me to buy something Japanese :lol:

 

You'e made a few points and I'll try to answer them all.

 

Regards it being a minority breed and getting what's available rather than a good one, I'm looking at the best breeders in Europe and plan to go and bring one over.

 

Working wise, like I explained, if he makes it, great; If he doesn't then that isn't an issue either. My friend Herr Plinker and I have had a few luaghs about the likelyhood of downing a bird and the dog pointing at it whilst we have to go and retrieve it :)

But joking aside, I'll probably get into beating and will aim to get into different types of shooting as well to suit the dog.

 

We've really considered labs, but the fact that they shed so much hair and the heating in our house is usually set at a temperature where we could easily breed tropical animals, makes the lab unsuitable for us.

 

I appreciate the advice and totally get what you and others have said, but a champion gun dog isn't the ultimate goal here. I've explained the reasoning and logic behind our decision and our hearts are set on one of these.

 

The thing is you are basing your decision on a suggestion by someone on the net who hasn't got one but read a load on the Internet. Look what shooting they do on the continent and the closest to Herts is 150 miles away, we just don't really do walked up game over pointers, people get the other types of more common pointer usually because they shoot deer. Picking up they are poor and beating well I have one that does but she isn't the norm. I had my first day with her in 5 years true shooting over her and it was great but trimming up cock birds is a rare event.

The issues for you that will be difficult is a dog that ranges well and needs lots of exercise, landrovers aside this is a 15 year decision and you are making the worst possible choice for what you do shoot and will shoot, but If you want one as a pet go for it just be under no illusions it will be up to anything with pigeon shooting. I've been looking after a Labrador cross poodle this week and that would fit the hair loss issue and actually that's been quite an eye opener very keen to learn and intelligent. Much as I could never own one!

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Kent,

 

I did say that Hprs are worked as pickers and not on the beaters line with the flushers...I also said why should not be done. I agree in part about the european trainers/breeders, its not always true that we get second choice dogs...depend how you do your homework and how much planning you put into it, if I tell you the story about me buying a PP, you will be bored after 5 minutes...it was a big strugle at first and then got easy.

I have dome all the hard homework and made some very good contacts and portuguese its not a problem(I have a very good fluent speaking portuguese friend) and hopefully me and Cos will get some decent dogs, still I know that there is a risk involved.....Lemon comes back to my mind....but its a risk that we all take when we buy a puppy.

 

About 6-8 months ago, a very good Field trial Trainer, was taking a group of people for a lesson...some HPRs and some cockers, the lesson was...the dreaded first time BANG.....first bang went off at 100 yard with the usual 22 dummy pistol....unfortunally the cocker broke thruw the line..not to be see for 15 min...very gun shy...unfortunally the dog as become just a pet.

 

So...I expect a lemon of a dog....with the hope that he might turn into a cherrie, without forgetting that,it will become a decent dog, only if you dedicate yourself to it and try to teach the basic.

 

Mark

 

I think that's a good attitude to start the venture with ( expect a lemon ), I trust it still means home for life for the dog if it goes that way

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Cosd - get the dog you want, it is evident you have your heart set on it. It may turn out perfectly from all the reading but experience with dogs dictates a different outcome. All that said, you won't have that experience if you don't do it and everybody starts somewhere. You seem determined, a good trait to prove the doubters wrong.

 

The fact you have already mentioned tailoring your shooting to suit the dog suggests you will enjoy your dog work, best of luck. You may well end up with a lab in a kennel, and a spaniel... in fact I would almost guarantee it, we all start with one dog...

 

I would like to hear how you get on.

 

P.s. labs and spaniels only here... tried and tested LOL

Edited by WGD
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The thing is you are basing your decision on a suggestion by someone on the net who hasn't got one but read a load on the Internet. Look what shooting they do on the continent and the closest to Herts is 150 miles away, we just don't really do walked up game over pointers, people get the other types of more common pointer usually because they shoot deer. Picking up they are poor and beating well I have one that does but she isn't the norm. I had my first day with her in 5 years true shooting over her and it was great but trimming up cock birds is a rare event.

The issues for you that will be difficult is a dog that ranges well and needs lots of exercise, landrovers aside this is a 15 year decision and you are making the worst possible choice for what you do shoot and will shoot, but If you want one as a pet go for it just be under no illusions it will be up to anything with pigeon shooting. I've been looking after a Labrador cross poodle this week and that would fit the hair loss issue and actually that's been quite an eye opener very keen to learn and intelligent. Much as I could never own one!

 

oxfordfowler on here has a labradoodle that he takes wildfowling!

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Go for it and u are obviously not put off by the negative comments, but i'm pretty sure there is a wealth off dog training knowledge and experience all saying it's probably not a wise choice and even more so as a 1st time gundog. It's not really a choice thing like the LR's (as most 4x4's will do a similar job really ) but just people who know dogs are just trying to give u the benefit off there experience, also all dogs will not do the same even labs and spaniels have there srengths and weaknesses and it makes life far easier if u play to a dogs strengths rather than spend the next 10+ years trying to cover its weaknesses. A well trained (or even average trained) gundog is a joy to shoot/live with a bad 1 will make ur next 10 years shooting a living hell

 

Like a few on here i have an hpr and with a bit off luck i may hope to trial it in the future, if things go to plan, but there really is very very few opotunities for 'proper' walked up/shot over shooting in the uk unless u know a few keepers with the right type off grouund. Even the field trialing crowd really struggle for ground to work there dogs. And as for beating or picking up, i pretty much would not allow any hpr breed on a decent sized shoot, unless i knew both the dog and owner well. If a complete stranger door knocked a keeper wanting to work his hpr i would tell them i'm full wether i was or not. I have seen some terrible labs and spaniels over the years but the potential for big disaster with a hpr is massive just because they are so quick sometimes strong headed and there noses are so sensitive and overloaded with scent they could easy ruin 2 or 3 drives not just the 1.

 

i have a mate am amatuer trianer who took in for training and has pretty much 'adopted' an Irish Water Spaniel, he's made a cracking job off it but i have seen the hours off time and effort he put into that dog and it's still not as good as an average working lab, if he put that huge effort and determnation into a lab it would off been a really brilliant dog.

 

A labradoddle is not as daft an idea as it sounds (althou i have heard some will still shed must depend which genes it takes unless a 2nd gen cross) and would tick more boxes in my opinion seen a few work over the years (1 not bad one on a grouse moor) and know off 2 pure poodles which occasionally come out which are reasonably well trained, infact better than the majority off gunds dogs on that shoot

 

U pay ur money u take ur chance, but to me it's too big a chance/risk. I'd always go for a good boring working gundog than a fashion asscesory

 

Wot i'm trying to say is ur setting urself up for failure before u even start

 

PS

Meant to add because most off us have no idea wot sort off temperment a PP will have it could make giving advice in the future a lot harder. It's hard enough to give decent advice for a dog/trainer u have don't know or have never seen with a 'normal' gundog ur familar with, but a lot harder for a strange breed.

Best off luck

Edited by scotslad
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The thing is you are basing your decision on a suggestion by someone on the net who hasn't got one but read a load on the Internet. Look what shooting they do on the continent and the closest to Herts is 150 miles away, we just don't really do walked up game over pointers, people get the other types of more common pointer usually because they shoot deer. Picking up they are poor and beating well I have one that does but she isn't the norm. I had my first day with her in 5 years true shooting over her and it was great but trimming up cock birds is a rare event.

The issues for you that will be difficult is a dog that ranges well and needs lots of exercise, landrovers aside this is a 15 year decision and you are making the worst possible choice for what you do shoot and will shoot, but If you want one as a pet go for it just be under no illusions it will be up to anything with pigeon shooting. I've been looking after a Labrador cross poodle this week and that would fit the hair loss issue and actually that's been quite an eye opener very keen to learn and intelligent. Much as I could never own one!

 

Al4x,

 

I might be right or wrong ...that I can't say...lost my glass ball the other month....but neither you can, what you doing its just assuming and I don't find it fair nor helpfull, you could at least ask a little more about the background work carried out by us, or what type of experience we have....did we meet a PP, have we seen one working and so on.

 

As I said....if its a lemon I will have a good companion in the hide to share my adventures and bad cooking.

 

Mark

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How popular are these dogs actually in there native portugal? and how many actually work? From the quick read it seems they almost died out at the turn off the century, if they werre that good the phesants would be using them to keep there larders full

I tried to find the most popular breedin porugal on a search but never got any results but in spain and italy (and some scandinvian countries) it is generally the uk orign pointer setter breeds tend to be the most popular gun dog breeds even more popular than lab's or spaniels because of the type of shooting

 

If u believe the all the blurb about breeds and there original purposes old english sheepdogs would still be hearding sheep, bull mastiff's would still be capable of baiting bulls and many of the terrier breeds would be capable off going to ground, or 'drawing' its quarry.

Even the majority of gundog breeds at crufts would not have a days work in them.

 

I don't think u will get many pigeon coming in with a dog whinning or yapping its head off or jumping about as can't sit still.

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Al4x,

 

I might be right or wrong ...that I can't say...lost my glass ball the other month....but neither you can, what you doing its just assuming and I don't find it fair nor helpfull, you could at least ask a little more about the background work carried out by us, or what type of experience we have....did we meet a PP, have we seen one working and so on.

 

As I said....if its a lemon I will have a good companion in the hide to share my adventures and bad cooking.

 

Mark

no mate, if its bad you wont take it out fact is a poor dog wont see many trips out shooting - you maybe need to experience sucking on a lemon a bit before you take a great big bite of one. As mentioned wining, yapping, incurable gun shyness, running off, pestering you it will maybe make a pet if its a lemon but it wont make a half right gundog. Gundogs have to be trained on an all or nothing basis, problems have to be fixed

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Can anyone tell me if they are giving me advice based on experience with a PP?

I don't doubt what you guys are saying is all possible, but its possible with any breed including the big three you mention; but I accept it'll be less likely with one of the obvious breeds.

 

It's not as though I'm trying to train a Pug to fox hunt! I've chosen a gun dog with retrieve capability, a great nose, works close to his master and so eager to please he's described as embarrassingly affectionate. All these traits are a great prerequisite to any sort of gun dog training.

 

Now I accept he's not going to be as steady as the best lab, but he won't be any scattier than a spaniel, so there's no reason why he won't do some of what I'd like him to do

 

Maybe I could swap some decent pigeon shooting for a return invite to go and work the dog for what he was bread for!

 

I've already explained my reasons for choosing this dog, and when I get him I hope some of you guys will try to help when I need advice and not just say I told you so.

 

Can anyone tell me if they are giving me advice based on experience with a PP?

I don't doubt what you guys are saying is all possible, but its possible with any breed including the big three you mention; but I accept it'll be less likely with one of the obvious breeds.

 

It's not as though I'm trying to train a Pug to fox hunt! I've chosen a gun dog with retrieve capability, a great nose, works close to his master and so eager to please he's described as embarrassingly affectionate. All these traits are a great prerequisite to any sort of gun dog training.

 

Now I accept he's not going to be as steady as the best lab, but he won't be any scattier than a spaniel, so there's no reason why he won't do some of what I'd like him to do

 

Maybe I could swap some decent pigeon shooting for a return invite to go and work the dog for what he was bread for!

 

I've already explained my reasons for choosing this dog, and when I get him I hope some of you guys will try to help when I need advice and not just say I told you so.

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Cos its not really about being steady its about harnessing what the dog will do with what you want it to do, these are a breed for hunting partridges in large open spaces with a low quarry density, we pretty much don't do any of that in the UK. The closest is grouse but good luck with that one, I would suggest asking one to sit in a pigeon hide is exactly like teaching a pug to fox hunt but you will only find that out when you try it. You will be different by having one but talk to as many people as you can before hand, chuck Evil elvis a pm and you can talk vislas which will be fairly similar in traits, you can form them to an extent but you still have the basic attributes which will be a challenge.

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Dogs are not bred so they WILL work close, some just have the natural inclination (look how many spaniels wiz off out of gunshot) dogs are trained that way, I bet I can get a lab running wild and wide real quick. I have also used a HPR in the hide wildfowling - it can be done but its like having Husain Bolt in the blocks ready to go, flinching with every passing bird. On the other hand my Lab actually made himself a nest and nodded off within 1/2 hr of his first ever evening duck flight. You will get help here but as has been said non of us know what these dogs are like so its best guess. Ring a few pro trainers ask the question " will you take one for training?" I suspect it will be an enlightening experience. Good luck either way even though most are thinking your making a big mistake

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Cos, I say just go for it!

 

I wanted a wirehaired vizsla since I first saw them in this country, and ok I'll accept the WHV isn't the ideal dog for my type of shooting, but I was prepared to take any shortcomings on the chin. At the end of the day, if he's well behaved, contributed somehow to the day and we've both enjoyed ourselves, then I'm very happy.

 

My little shoot has an English pointer, a wirehaired griffon, my WHV, plus numerous cockers and labs. We currently run (well, until yesterday) on a walk & stand basis and our dogs work in the beating line. Being able to point and flush works for us and we enjoy having that control over when we send the birds.

 

It sounds like you have done your homework, so I wish you the best of luck. You know it ain't gonna be easy, but it'll be fun and you'll have something different at the end of it.

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Korthals?

Had to look it up, but yes, that's it.

 

It's the only one I've ever seen and I have to confess to thinking he was a bit of a strange looking German Wirehaired Pointer all season :oops: . His owner put me right last week :blush::lol:

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There is a very intresting story behind the orign off the Korthals Griffon

 

U obvousily have ur heart set on this breed and think it ticks all the boxes for u.

 

I'd say most off the negative posts are all pretty good advice on potential problems u may have with a minority breed and even more so with an HPR breed when expecting it to sit in a hide, goes aggainst hundreds of years off selective breeding. I'd also say all the posts are fairly fair, unbaised, honest and not overly slagging the breed off, albeit most/all have no experience off that paticular breed but have experience with other working dogs.

 

But u only have to read ur posts to see how emotional and defensive u are off a breed u also have no reral experience off, most owners view there dogs throu rose tinted spectacles and sometimes even more so when ur involved with a minority breed, i take it u are incontact with some breeders/breed society, there opinion off the breed they love may not be as unbaised and involve a bit of an emotional connection to the bred ultimately trying to get u involved/sell u a pup.

A couple of qeustions i would ask about how they train the dogs as some off the techniches used on the continent and usa would not go down well with most gundog trainers/general public in the uk

It is very common in the usa esp to train dogs with the Forced Fetch (FF)/retrieve to make dogs retrieve,(even labs) i would not have the stomach to train a dog like that (many breeds esp the uk orign pointers/setters will retrieve abroad but generally not here)

Also the E collar is very common if not a normal training tool in the usa, so if a breed/line is needing a lot off corection throu the button to train u might struggle to train it to a standard with out it

 

If u ignore the gundog side and think about a pet dog, high on my list of want's would be i'd want a dog that heeled pretty well on/off lead and did not pull like a train, generally speaking most hpr type breeds are not known for there heel work

 

I see somene else reccommended u phone a couple of pro trainers to see if they would take u on for training, i'm guessing most would be wary

 

Tthe 1 trainer really worh phoning would be Rory Major of Bryanscroft Gundogs, he has a very good dvd aimed at training hpr breeds and is probably 1 off the best and most experienced hpr trainers in the uk and has trained a fairly wide variety off different hpr breeds, i'm sure he could give u a more informed view on ur future dog breed and potential problems u might encounter, i may be wrong but i bet most of the pitfalls will have been already covered/mentioned by somone previously in this thread

(Possibly a Brittany would also suit u seems similar in other ways althou dunno if it moults, but definately a dog with a slightly better known working ability in the uk)

Edited by scotslad
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Sirs,

 

After much debate and advise, I understand your concerns, still my mind was made up a long time ago about this breed.

 

So, I'm not going to say or call her..(for the moment) a nice shooting dog...I will just call her...my Gorgeous Lemon

 

She looks fantastic Mark!

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