Pump Club

[impala59]

I believe that the paper cartridge works well in M37's due to the nature of the waxed paper effectively lubing the extraction. Mark mentioned thorough chamber cleaning, I think this is an absolute must, mine is polished to mirror finish. I carried out a test by removing the barrels from my M37 and BPS (as they both work ostensibly the same), plugged both with copious amounts of tissue and a cork, then dropped a plastic (weighted) drill cartridge into each in turn. It seemed to me that (although quite un-scientific) that the M37 chamber was more loose. This may have an effect, that when the round ignites there is sufficient room for the plastic to expand and grip the chamber. The round sits deeper in the BPS and was a better flush fit into the rim area. In fact, in the M37 the cartridge actually protrudes about half a mil. Possibly explained by the fact that the BPS is built in Japan by Miroku who obviously machine chambers on top quality double guns, why would they profile a pump chamber any different? This brings me back to my earlier point about cartridges such as Eleys and the profile of the rim versus the relatively small area that hook extractor's are expected to grab, I attempt a diagram :( Edit... sorry about quality of pic , created in word and photographed on screen as could not load word doc

Edited December 17, 2015 by impala59

[ChAoS]

It seemed to me that (although quite un-scientific) that the M37 chamber was more loose.

*This* is the reason that I've not been keen to rush oot and buy a brake cylinder hone. The M37 seems loose to me, too, but I've not actually measured any shotgun's chamber to find out if this is actually so.

 

The round sits deeper in the BPS and was a better flush fit into the rim area. In fact, in the M37 the cartridge actually protrudes about half a mil. Possibly explained by the fact that the BPS is built in Japan by Miroku who obviously machine chambers on top quality double guns, why would they profile a pump chamber any different?

Out of interest, where does the bolt on a BPS lock up into? (I've been meaning to acquire a BPS just for "completeness", as it were; since both BPS and M37 are bottom ejects, it'd be nice to be able to compare and contrast the two guns.)

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

[a303]

Bps locks into the barrel extension.

[TbirdX]

My own experience with the M37 (two of them actually ;-) ) is that short brass (yes I'm aware its not real brass) carts jam in the barrel of a warm gun. By short brass I mean anything with less than around 10mm. I've tried all sorts, including new extractors ans they just won't come out. If I stick to 'long brass carts I have no problems at all.

 

Pic for illustration...

 

 

From L to R - Eley Superbs, never had a fail to extract - Eley Olympics - never had a fail to extract - Gamebore Evo (I think) fail to extract after the first shot of a cold gun.

 

I've tried all sorts of carts, fibre and plaswad and anything 10mm and over is fine, anything under is a waste of time. The new Eley cheapo carts also work ok and they are around the 10m mark for brass.

 

I've used my Ithaca almost exclusively since I got it and having found that the longer brass carts work fine I just stick to those and I've had no further issues with failing to extract.

 

Give it a try if you're having similar problems and see how you go.

 

I don't remember the last time I cleaned the chamber either :-)

Edited December 18, 2015 by TbirdX

[ChAoS]

Bps locks into the barrel extension.

A*ha*!

 

[sniffs]

 

Not sure if this actually makes any difference but, nonetheless, it *is* a real difference between the two guns.

 

Gamebore Evo (I think) fail to extract after the first shot of a cold gun.

Funnily enough, I've had exactly the same happen to me using Evos.

 

Give it a try if you're having similar problems and see how you go.

So, what I appears to needs is a 65mm cartridge with a *huge* amount of "brass". Hmmm...

 

I don't remember the last time I cleaned the chamber either :-)

[Jumps up onto a rock]

 

*Blasphemer*! Stone him! Stonnnnnne hiiiim!

 

(Jus' kiddin'.)

 

Regards,

 

Mark.

[impala59]

Well, that sort of backs up my theory about the cartridge wobbling around in the chamber, the longer brass holds the shell straighter and more securely. Unfortunately it also blows my Eleyism out of the water. I will try some long brass Eley's on your recommendation. This thread is very educational! Remmie stalwarts a bit quiet at mo.... My Model 31should be back in the fold soon,

 

My own experience with the M37 (two of them actually ;-) ) is that short brass (yes I'm aware its not real brass) carts jam in the barrel of a warm gun. By short brass I mean anything with less than around 10mm. I've tried all sorts, including new extractors ans they just won't come out. If I stick to 'long brass carts I have no problems at all.

 

Eley Superbs, never had a fail to extract - Eley Olympics - never had a fail to extract

 

I've tried all sorts of carts, fibre and plaswad and anything 10mm and over is fine, anything under is a waste of time. The new Eley cheapo carts also work ok and they are around the 10m mark for brass.

 

I've used my Ithaca almost exclusively since I got it and having found that the longer brass carts work fine I just stick to those and I've had no further issues with failing to extract.

 

Give it a try if you're having similar problems and see how you go.

 

I don't remember the last time I cleaned the chamber either :-)

 

its been with a relative up north for ages, looking forward

[stevethejeep]

Evening Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your helpful replies, and I've just, as previously suggested, polished the inside of the chamber with 1000grade wet & dry on a split stick with oil, and then finished with a new bronze brush, both on my electric drill.

Monday will find me at my local emporium after cartriges with 10mm brass, and we'll see how we get on. Will let you know.

Hopefully it'll stop raining sometime soon, I'll give it a try, just in case I get grief from that fat old guy and the livestock on the roof again next Friday! 00buck should be sufficient?

Thanks

Steve

PS Anyone know where I can get a M37 24" Deerslayer barrel from in the UK please? No relation to last paragraph!

[a303]

Be warned that on the earlier m37, barrels are hand fitted to the receivers. Hence serial number on both action and barrel. Can't remember what year it was but think it was mid sixties.

 

You can't swop earlier barrels easily apparently.

 

Hope to get out over the Christmas break to rattle a few through mine.

Edited December 21, 2015 by a303

[impala59]

likewise getting out!!!!!

Edited December 21, 2015 by impala59

[stevethejeep]

Evening Gents,

Thanks for the interchangeability warning, I've spent the last couple of days with my new Xmas book, arrived from over The Pond, "Ithaca, Featherlight Repeater.......... the best gun going", by Snyder, ............. if you're into M37's I recommend it. That told me that, as you say, post I think '63 all barrels are interchangable, mine left the factory in '77, so shouldn't be a problem, but wont slamfire and has the 8 dimple mag-cap etc.

Saw Santa today getting fitted out with SCUBA gear and Rudolph looked kinda cute in a snorkel, mask & flippers, .......... we must have had a couple of inches again in Cornwall today, and the forecast is for more, deep joy!

Yours Amphibiously,

Steve

[Danoi99]

I love the Wingmaster but it's not without it's flaws...............sometimes it doesn't eject (chamber too tight? wrong type of carts?) I've had to put a comb raiser on it, I have way more success with my side by side hammergun !!!

 

Need to spend some time on the pattern plate me thinks as I've stuck a laser sighter thingy in it and the beam is hidden completely by the bead. whereas the beam hits just above the bead on my hammergun.

 

Anyone else had any accuracy problems with the 870?

 

 

At least I've had some hits with it eh?

 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Danoi99

[impala59]

Odd thing first, I got all of your post on my IPhone but it does not seem to be here on the PC ? Technology doh!

Regarding de-crimping, it can be done but at the risk of weakening the tube, check with gunsmith. Sportsman gun co are in your area and they crimp a lot of guns so I would think that they have some expertise in this area.

For PSG, with the amount of ammunition expended, your fail to extract problem would be even more frustrating for you. The previous 2 pages cover a similar problem on Ithaca's and I note from your pic. that your "brass" is quite low. Maybe a high brass case would solve the issue, together with totally clean/polished chamber. I am sure many Wingy owners have a fave cartridge. You could check the extractor hook profile and spring (look on Brownells UK website) Remingtons are usually pretty much 100% extractors.

By the way Nice Picture!

[stevethejeep]

I'd agree with the previous , polish you chamber as described, and use 10mm+ brass. Got some 12mm yesterday and put 5 rapidfire through my M37, which works perfectly with it. Not a comprehensive test I grant you, but all available with weather/work/festive constraints.

I really wouldn't de-crimp you Remington for 2 reasons. 1. It de-values it as Sec1, as more saleable as Sec2, &2. Had no end of problems with a Browning Auto5 trying to do the same thing, didn't feed properly, lot's of grief, ended reverting to Sec 2............. wish I'd never bothered!

Buy a separate gun converted/prepared for Practical and use if for that, and leaving your nice Remington as it is

Just had a brace of above for dinner with friends last night, delicious, cold cut today excellent !!

Hope this helps

[impala59]

I'd agree with the previous , polish you chamber as described, and use 10mm+ brass. Got some 12mm yesterday and put 5 rapidfire through my M37, which works perfectly with it. Not a comprehensive test I grant you, but all available with weather/work/festive constraints.

I really wouldn't de-crimp you Remington for 2 reasons. 1. It de-values it as Sec1, as more saleable as Sec2, &2. Had no end of problems with a Browning Auto5 trying to do the same thing, didn't feed properly, lot's of grief, ended reverting to Sec 2............. wish I'd never bothered!

Buy a separate gun converted/prepared for Practical and use if for that, and leaving your nice Remington as it is

Just had a brace of above for dinner with friends last night, delicious, cold cut today excellent !!

Hope this helps

What were the 12mm carts that worked? intend some serious testing in January! lunch sounds yummy!

[Scully]

I love the Wingmaster but it's not without it's flaws...............sometimes it doesn't eject (chamber too tight? wrong type of carts?) I've had to put a comb raiser on it, I have way more success with my side by side hammergun !!!

 

Need to spend some time on the pattern plate me thinks as I've stuck a laser sighter thingy in it and the beam is hidden completely by the bead. whereas the beam hits just above the bead on my hammergun.

 

Anyone else had any accuracy problems with the 870?

 

I can't understand why you have felt the need to put a laser point on a shotgun unless you're aiming it like a rifle? A pattern plate will show where your gun prints but only if your mount is consistent.

I doubt there is anything amiss with the accuracy of your 870; inconsistencies in mount, swing etc will negate the usefulness of a laser surely?

[impala59]

I thought Danoi was referring to a laser bore sighter? rather than a laser sight?

[Scully]

I thought Danoi was referring to a laser bore sighter? rather than a laser sight?

That's how I understood it also, but I can't understand why.

[impala59]

What worked for me in the past was an hour or two with a good coach, thinking about it, I may just do that again as bad habits form easily but are hard to break

[stevethejeep]

Hi Impala59,

Cartridges are Gamebore 70mm, some SG some No6 shot. As someone described earlier most stuff worked ok through my M37, when gun was cold, but if you fired more the 2-3 consecutive shots, the 4-5th would fail the eject, which was boring and embarrassing!

Using thousand grade wet&dry on a stick on end of electric drill + a splash of oil, I polished the chamber 'till all the matt had gone and it was starting to shine. Then with a new bronze brush & drill, polished 'til it shone ............. seems to have done the trick, took about an hour and cost pence. The long case brass as an earlier correspondent suggested works fine , so far.

When I get a chance from the ******* Yo,ho,ho stuff, ..... I'm going to my own little 'range' to put a box through in double quick time just to be sure I've cured it.

Guess your running an Impala? I had a '65 GT fastback Mustang til very recently, and run 25+ WW2 jeeps since the '60's. Guns or wheels, you cant beat it bit of Uncle Sam's 'real steel' ?

[impala59]

Hi Impala59,

Cartridges are Gamebore 70mm, some SG some No6 shot. As someone described earlier most stuff worked ok through my M37, when gun was cold, but if you fired more the 2-3 consecutive shots, the 4-5th would fail the eject, which was boring and embarrassing!

Using thousand grade wet&dry on a stick on end of electric drill + a splash of oil, I polished the chamber 'till all the matt had gone and it was starting to shine. Then with a new bronze brush & drill, polished 'til it shone ............. seems to have done the trick, took about an hour and cost pence. The long case brass as an earlier correspondent suggested works fine , so far.

When I get a chance from the ******* Yo,ho,ho stuff, ..... I'm going to my own little 'range' to put a box through in double quick time just to be sure I've cured it.

Guess your running an Impala? I had a '65 GT fastback Mustang til very recently, and run 25+ WW2 jeeps since the '60's. Guns or wheels, you cant beat it bit of Uncle Sam's 'real steel' ?

Thanks for info, luckily my chamber is also highly polished so when married to decent cart all should be well.

I do run a Chevy at mo (SUV) , unfortunately its a Korean one! not a bad car, was the wife's choice, I mitigate by also running a Harley 1200 Sportster custom and playing a fender telecaster! The impala name is a sad reminder of 2 weeks of ownership of red 59 impala, white soft top bought with heart not eyes or head which when both doors were left open during a deep cleaning day saw the car collapse into almost two pieces. It was a total basket case and I lost £3000 in those two weeks. I have not yet found another that I can afford and the prices are now lottery amounts. Still, keep hoping! with the cash I managed to get for the wreck I bought a 69 GT convertible Mustang 351W Carter 4 barrel etc. It was a Texas car and bone dry zero rust. I ran that for five years with not one problem then made a decent profit when I sold it. Will get another Oldie when the wife finishes driving lessons and has the Captiva, sadly prob not impala though

[MartynGT4]

I can't understand why you have felt the need to put a laser point on a shotgun unless you're aiming it like a rifle? A pattern plate will show where your gun prints but only if your mount is consistent.

I doubt there is anything amiss with the accuracy of your 870; inconsistencies in mount, swing etc will negate the usefulness of a laser surely?

 

He was using one of these http://www.arrowlasershot.com/, mine in fact. It's not supposed to be for identifying point of aim, but it does help indicate if the gun is actually pointing where you think it is etc. I found it useful when practising mounting the gun consistently. Haven't used it in years though.

[Scully]

Thanks for that.

[Danoi99]

I think it's time to look at the simple/ cheapest option for sorting this FTE problem. MartynGT4 has witnessed the failure when shooting clays.

 

I'm dead quick on the reload side of things, and we had the thought that the empty cart is still fully expanded and is gripping the barrel, and coupled with the rough surface of the chamber is likely causing the extractor to slip off the rim. And usually happens on or around the last pairs on the stand (shot 7 - 10) so things are all hotted up by then I suppose.

 

The carts next to the pheasant in my pic were just put in shot for effect, I actually shot it with a 70mm 32g no.6 felt wad, Extreme High Pheasant by Hull cartridge. They have an almost 20mm brass (yes I know it aint brass) and yes.....no problems with ejecting, just a dent in my wallet. Oddly enough, this poor sod was only about 4ft off the deck when I nailed it, it flushed out of the edge of a wood about 6 ft away and made me jump. Unfortunately for him it also made me snatch the trigger !!! I digress.

 

As for the laser gizmo, it's a good thing to give you an idea about what's going on, but I'd agree that it's no substitute for time on the pattern plate or a decent gun fitting session.

 

So it's polishing time for me, I'll let you know how I get on.

 

Cheers

 

ps. anyone ever swapped out their ejector on an 870 for the non stamped type? Volquartson machined type thingy. Non MIM I think it's called. did it help?

[MartynGT4]

I think it's time to look at the simple/ cheapest option for sorting this FTE problem. MartynGT4 has witnessed the failure when shooting clays.

 

I'm dead quick on the reload side of things, and we had the thought that the empty cart is still fully expanded and is gripping the barrel, and coupled with the rough surface of the chamber is likely causing the extractor to slip off the rim. And usually happens on or around the last pairs on the stand (shot 7 - 10) so things are all hotted up by then I suppose.

 

The carts next to the pheasant in my pic were just put in shot for effect, I actually shot it with a 70mm 32g no.6 felt wad, Extreme High Pheasant by Hull cartridge. They have an almost 20mm brass (yes I know it aint brass) and yes.....no problems with ejecting, just a dent in my wallet. Oddly enough, this poor sod was only about 4ft off the deck when I nailed it, it flushed out of the edge of a wood about 6 ft away and made me jump. Unfortunately for him it also made me snatch the trigger !!! I digress.

 

As for the laser gizmo, it's a good thing to give you an idea about what's going on, but I'd agree that it's no substitute for time on the pattern plate or a decent gun fitting session.

 

So it's polishing time for me, I'll let you know how I get on.

 

Cheers

 

ps. anyone ever swapped out their ejector on an 870 for the non stamped type? Volquartson machined type thingy. Non MIM I think it's called. did it help?

 

That'll be one of these https://www.volquartsen.com/products/1194-exact-edge-extractor-for-remington-870-and-1100, certainly looks worth a try!

[oz.man64]

I owned a winchester 120 sold it two years ago in a moment of madness. Regretted it and lo and behold it turned up at gunshop exact same gun. Needless to say its back in my cabinet