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3 hours ago, Scrumbag said:

Sco77!, That's a really nice collection!

Don't know if you are aware but Benelli make a dedicated 24" smooth bore rifle-sighted barrel for the Supernova.

My FAC Supernova I'm setting up for some target shotgun / practical. Got a speed bead mount coming as my receiver isn't drilled and tapped so that will be for slug matches and will use the express irons for practical.

Scrummy 

I think you are probably right.

I've seen the Supernovas with the iron sights. My Supernova is for shooting PSG in standard manual division, I have an F12 as my open gun and a somewhat modified Armsan a612 when i shoot standard. The Remington 870 is obviously my slug gun and undergoing a bit of a make over and the M37 as a piece of history. I'm a bit of a shotgun fan and there are maybe 3 or 4 pieces I want as a collector but I'll need to get a variation in before i start looking at any more

 

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5 hours ago, theshootist said:

Very interesting. I would argue that the reason that slam fire existed was to do with design simplicity rather than meeting a need of a soldier to shoot quickly. The subsequent fixes were then done to cure a perceived safety issue with it. As for military application of slam fire, I'm not convined. If the military needed a shotgun to shoot quickly then the ultra reliable Browning auto 5 had been around well in time for WW1.

I do a bit of PSG and slam firing would not help me, although I'll conceded it may have been used at extreme close range in wartime. I thing it would be against a single point target though. 

100% in agreement regarding “slam fire” being a by-product of simple design and function. As far as military use is concerned, I believe that all functions would be explored and utilised as necessary.  Training would be designed to get the best from the individual, the weapon and the ammunition. In a trench, tunnel, dense jungle or similar environment it may have been prudent to attempt to clear it rapidly (conjecture on my part)

”Slam Fire “ is a term that the Model 37 seems to have been labelled with and I agree that in PSG it is not really practical at all!

Interestingly, many years ago in the early days of PSG we occasionally had a course of fire that specified ‘hip’ or ‘instinctive ‘ shooting. My old DSPS, slamfired, was pretty useful in that type of stage

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I can't find any references to 24" barrelled DSPS's. All US issued DSPS are 20" or 18.5". There are many unconfirmed stories of 37s being brought over the pond by US servicemen, but it seems a little strange that they would bring what is essentially a slug gun and parkerised at that. I have seen Cutts compensators brazed on to 20 inchers to make them legal which may suggest some came in that way though.

I am guessing that maybe someone was importing these guns back in the '80s which would explain the UK legal barrel length but I can find no actual evidence. My reference books do not even list a DSPS with 24" barreI. Having said that there are many odd 37s out there. The factory was renowned for using whatever parts were in stock at the time! My old (Much missed) DSPS, Parkerised, Plain receiver, Raybar sight, Choate Machine Tool furniture, 7 + 1 was also 24" cylinder bore, It must have been earlier as it had the original trigger (pre '75) Sadly let that one go a long time ago, wish I could find it again.

Whilst digging through stuff I pulled out a couple of paragraphs which may interest the Pump Club;

 

Extracts from Project Gutenberg (US Munitions document 1917-18)

 

When American troops were in the heat of the fighting in the summer of 1918, the German government sent a protest through a neutral agency to our Government asserting that our men were using shotguns against German troops in the trenches. The allegation was true; but our State Department replied that the use of such weapons was not forbidden by the Geneva Convention as the Germans had asserted. Manufactured primarily for the purpose of arming guards placed over German prisoners, these shotguns were undoubtedly in some instances carried into the actual fighting. The Ordnance Department procured some 30,000 to 40,000 shotguns of the short-barrel or sawed-off type, ordering these from the regular commercial manufacturers. The shell provided for these guns each contained a charge of nine heavy buckshot, a combination likely to have murderous effect in close fighting.

 

 And....as its Pigeon Watch, a little snippet I noticed

Although nearly every European army for 40 years has trained the carrier pigeon to be a field messenger, the American Army never adopted the bird until 1917. In a single year the Signal Corps established hundreds of pigeon lofts in this country and overseas and bought and trained more than 15,000 pigeons for service in France. In actual use on the field the pigeons delivered more than 95 per cent of the messages intrusted to them, flying safely through the heaviest shell and gas barrages.

 

A couple of extracts from............ US Combat Shotguns by Leroy Thompson (recommended reading! Google it)

 

It was towards the end of the 19th century, however, that the weapon that would really be the forerunner for US 20th-century combat shotguns was developed – the Winchester Model 1897 (M97) 12-gauge pump-action shotgun. Early in its production, a short-barrelled “riot gun” version of the M97 was developed. It was soon in action in the Philippines against Moro Juramentados (“oath-takers”). While other weapons, even the .30-caliber Krag rifle, might not stop a fanatical attacker, the M97 Riot Gun loaded with buckshot generally did. It was as the M97 Trench Gun, however, that the Winchester achieved iconic status. Reportedly, General John Pershing was a major supporter of the issuance of shotguns to US troops during World War I, possibly because of his memories of their effectiveness during the Philippine Insurrection. As the name implies, the trench gun was developed for the trench fighting in World War I. Known to US infantrymen as the “trench broom” or “trench sweeper,” the M97 Trench Gun performed that function admirably. Troops could clear a German assault on a trench by quickly pumping the shotgun and sending buckshot pellets the length of the trench. Doughboys and Marines found the trench shotgun very effective when clearing German positions as well, especially when the enemy was inside dugouts or buildings. The major criticism was not of the M97 Trench Gun but of its ammunition, which used paper shell-casings that did not hold up in the trenches. Late in the war the availability of 12-gauge buckshot rounds loaded into brass cases alleviated the ammunition problems.

                                                                                                                                           and............

The US Marines found the shotgun especially valuable during the jungle fighting in the Pacific during WW2. They considered it second only to the belt-fed machine gun in stopping massed Japanese attacks.

 

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9 hours ago, impala59 said:

I can't find any references to 24" barrelled DSPS's. All US issued DSPS are 20" or 18.5". There are many unconfirmed stories of 37s being brought over the pond by US servicemen, but it seems a little strange that they would bring what is essentially a slug gun and parkerised at that. I have seen Cutts compensators brazed on to 20 inchers to make them legal which may suggest some came in that way though.

I am guessing that maybe someone was importing these guns back in the '80s which would explain the UK legal barrel length but I can find no actual evidence. My reference books do not even list a DSPS with 24" barreI. Having said that there are many odd 37s out there. The factory was renowned for using whatever parts were in stock at the time! My old (Much missed) DSPS, Parkerised, Plain receiver, Raybar sight, Choate Machine Tool furniture, 7 + 1 was also 24" cylinder bore, It must have been earlier as it had the original trigger (pre '75) Sadly let that one go a long time ago, wish I could find it again.

Whilst digging through stuff I pulled out a couple of paragraphs which may interest the Pump Club;

 

Extracts from Project Gutenberg (US Munitions document 1917-18)

 

When American troops were in the heat of the fighting in the summer of 1918, the German government sent a protest through a neutral agency to our Government asserting that our men were using shotguns against German troops in the trenches. The allegation was true; but our State Department replied that the use of such weapons was not forbidden by the Geneva Convention as the Germans had asserted. Manufactured primarily for the purpose of arming guards placed over German prisoners, these shotguns were undoubtedly in some instances carried into the actual fighting. The Ordnance Department procured some 30,000 to 40,000 shotguns of the short-barrel or sawed-off type, ordering these from the regular commercial manufacturers. The shell provided for these guns each contained a charge of nine heavy buckshot, a combination likely to have murderous effect in close fighting.

 

 And....as its Pigeon Watch, a little snippet I noticed

Although nearly every European army for 40 years has trained the carrier pigeon to be a field messenger, the American Army never adopted the bird until 1917. In a single year the Signal Corps established hundreds of pigeon lofts in this country and overseas and bought and trained more than 15,000 pigeons for service in France. In actual use on the field the pigeons delivered more than 95 per cent of the messages intrusted to them, flying safely through the heaviest shell and gas barrages.

 

A couple of extracts from............ US Combat Shotguns by Leroy Thompson (recommended reading! Google it)

 

It was towards the end of the 19th century, however, that the weapon that would really be the forerunner for US 20th-century combat shotguns was developed – the Winchester Model 1897 (M97) 12-gauge pump-action shotgun. Early in its production, a short-barrelled “riot gun” version of the M97 was developed. It was soon in action in the Philippines against Moro Juramentados (“oath-takers”). While other weapons, even the .30-caliber Krag rifle, might not stop a fanatical attacker, the M97 Riot Gun loaded with buckshot generally did. It was as the M97 Trench Gun, however, that the Winchester achieved iconic status. Reportedly, General John Pershing was a major supporter of the issuance of shotguns to US troops during World War I, possibly because of his memories of their effectiveness during the Philippine Insurrection. As the name implies, the trench gun was developed for the trench fighting in World War I. Known to US infantrymen as the “trench broom” or “trench sweeper,” the M97 Trench Gun performed that function admirably. Troops could clear a German assault on a trench by quickly pumping the shotgun and sending buckshot pellets the length of the trench. Doughboys and Marines found the trench shotgun very effective when clearing German positions as well, especially when the enemy was inside dugouts or buildings. The major criticism was not of the M97 Trench Gun but of its ammunition, which used paper shell-casings that did not hold up in the trenches. Late in the war the availability of 12-gauge buckshot rounds loaded into brass cases alleviated the ammunition problems.

                                                                                                                                           and............

The US Marines found the shotgun especially valuable during the jungle fighting in the Pacific during WW2. They considered it second only to the belt-fed machine gun in stopping massed Japanese attacks.

 

Great write-up. Thanks. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

  It's talked about a lot here, but no one mentions specific issues I have read about:

 

Remington 870 Express Magnum:   

They rust up very quickly.  - I want it for Practical shotgun, all weathers.  Is this just a case of poor maintenance or are they really rust magnets?

The ejector is riveted in and replacement is a pain/expensive.  - My Winchester just has a bit of spring metal sliding about, easy to change (not that I have).  

Sticky shells - is this a problem, or has everyone sorted it out with a polish?

There are a couple for sale here, very tempted, looking for a reliable, self maintained, slug/buck capable, 10 + 1 

Thanks,

RS

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1 hour ago, RockySpears said:

  It's talked about a lot here, but no one mentions specific issues I have read about:

 

Remington 870 Express Magnum:   

They rust up very quickly.  - I want it for Practical shotgun, all weathers.  Is this just a case of poor maintenance or are they really rust magnets?

The ejector is riveted in and replacement is a pain/expensive.  - My Winchester just has a bit of spring metal sliding about, easy to change (not that I have).  

Sticky shells - is this a problem, or has everyone sorted it out with a polish?

There are a couple for sale here, very tempted, looking for a reliable, self maintained, slug/buck capable, 10 + 1 

Thanks,

RS

Don't know about the rust problem, my 870 Wingmaster has no finish/protective treatment on it at all at the moment, it looks kike stainless! I intend to cera-cote or dura-cote or may even try one of the new excellent heat/scratch resistant exhaust type paints available on the web. but back to my point, I have used the gun in all weathers and cleaned/oiled/ protected as is my usual regime, I have no rust issues with my 870. Yes, the ejector is riveted, a cost saving when the 870 replaced the superb Model 31, I don't actually know of anyone who has had a problem with it and I guess a new gun would be covered by the warranty anyway. With sticky ammunition, I would simply not buy it again, all pumps and autos can suffer ammunition dramas and finding what works is the name of the game, I use Bornaghi high brass for everything, no problems. You won't go far wrong with an 870, 10 million or so sold so can't be all bad!

Pic is my 870 in the raw

870 raw (7).JPG

Check this out. Come on now, you know you want one!!!!!

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/

Edited by impala59
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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:38, RockySpears said:

  It's talked about a lot here, but no one mentions specific issues I have read about:

 

Remington 870 Express Magnum:   

They rust up very quickly.  - I want it for Practical shotgun, all weathers.  Is this just a case of poor maintenance or are they really rust magnets?

The ejector is riveted in and replacement is a pain/expensive.  - My Winchester just has a bit of spring metal sliding about, easy to change (not that I have).  

Sticky shells - is this a problem, or has everyone sorted it out with a polish?

There are a couple for sale here, very tempted, looking for a reliable, self maintained, slug/buck capable, 10 + 1 

Thanks,

RS

My Wingmaster is 39 years old and has no rust on it at all. I've owned it for years and have shot it a lot, though less in the last couple of years. An Express is made to a lower quality than the WM, but still I should think it would be fine. Look after it. Don't store it in a pond, it will be fine. 

 

Sticky shells are an issue, I even had it on the new multi choke barrel I bought for my WM about 10 years ago. You can either polish it (loads of videos online ) or just put a few hundred cartridges through, that's all I did and it was fine after that. I'm told http://www.rem870.com/   quite good for practical stuff. 

Edited by throdgrain
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It's a tidy little number and at well less than £300 off the shelf I have really no complaints.

Despite reveiws saying it's difficult to assemble after breaking down it's really not. The instructions are less than helpful though.

Put 150 through it this morning, and despite starting off a little stiff it performed really well.

Just need a smart leather sling now to finish it off. 

IMG_20180225_171431323~2.jpg

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Pick your brains if I may guys!

I was using one of my section 2 model 37s on some clays and got a problem fail. The magazine spring appeared in the ejection port as the follower end had separated from the tubular section. This old gun had a metal follower which just seems to have disintegrated with age. I actually have a spare modern nylon follower but due to the S2 crimp and magazine being permanently fixed to the receiver I can’t get in to replace it. Not sure how the tube is fixed, doesn’t seem welded or brazed, maybe permanent loctite?

any ideas gentlemen?

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