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thepasty
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Yep, that’s a heavy duck right there. 

 

Proper pieces of kit. 

Have one here, of 1960s vintage. 

 

Winchester reportedly only ever made 30,000 of the heavy ducks so they are reasonably rare.

its taken me 4 years of serious searching to fine a nice one. 

How does it perform?

 

Even with a proper recoil pad they have a very short LOP. 

Designed for the American duck blind where you’d most likely have a number of layers on and a thick jacket. 

 

Must say between the 870, M37, BPS, mod 12 and the 1987. The Winchester’s win on build quality. However the M37 wins on slickness of cycling. 

Edited by a303
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Nice M12 a303! I like the pad.

Tough call on the BPS. I must admit, really like the Brownings.

On clays the M12 performed well. Took a moment to figure out the loading (Only the lifter, no latch) for retention in the magazine! One slight bobble in about 3 boxes. (Something bound on feeding - not sure what, couldn't replicate it. Probably just one of those things with repeaters). Otherwise cycled really smoothly

Scrummy

Edited by Scrumbag
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Have just had a look through my old photo bucket account ( which I no longer use ) and found a pic of my Model 12 in its case, so it will be on the forum somewhere. I'm pretty sure mine had 'goose gun' stamped on the barrel ( it only fitted my cabinet after I'd taken it down ) and as Winchester made 2 million Model 12's between 1912 and 1980, and in many many variations, it's quite possible.

I paid £350 for it and when I fell on hard times I tried to sell it along with my B325 to the dealer at Northallerton guns. The Browning was a G3 but had what others told me at the time was G5 wood, and in very good condition, but the RFD just picked it to bits; telling me the fore ends were prone to splitting as they were so thin, and everyone wanted chromed 30" barrels or whatever etc etc etc, so it would be hard to sell. I was desperate so it was sold,  but I cant recall for how much. He offered me £100 for the Model 12, citing the same old woes of old guns in the face of better and more modern pumps, but I just laughed at him and started to take it to bits and put it back in its case. Anyhow, as I was leaving, another assistant said, 'that case could be worth 200 quid', to which I replied 'well that's 300 with the gun then isn't it', and left. Never went back. 

The smell of old gun oil and smokeless powders ingrained into the case was like perfume to me, and I would often simply open the case to smell the history. Weird I know. 

Anyhow, sorry for the ramble, but like I said, there will be pictures of my old Model 12 on here somewhere. 

34 minutes ago, Kalahari said:

At least with a BPS one can shoot it off the correct shoulder!!!!!!!!!

 

David.

??True, but can you 'slam fire' a BPS? Totally impractical I know, but good fun! 

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Early guns ‘slam fire’ due to simple mechanics and the lack of a nanny state during their production years. Modern litigation saw off these classical systems. The BPS was created after the lawyers took control of design characteristics (around the mid ‘70s I believe) Witness the Ithaca model 37, the trigger mechanism changed to a type that can fail if the trigger is held during the cycle as the hammer will gently ride the bolt into battery and leave a live round in the chamber which must be cycled out before firing can recommence.

 I would be interested to know if anyone has the more complicated, optional  (LE) disconnector trigger which alleviates the above and is rare outside law enforcement circles. Certainly it would be a rare beast this side of the pond and consequently rare and valuable.

Scrummy, glad your 12 is a usable shooter, not a cabinet queen, maybe we’ll see it at the annual pump club shoot later in the year ?

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Well I just put about 20 rounds through the Ithaca with that synthetic stock... it was indeed a better comb height for me, but it seems to be an inherently crappy design... the pistol grip moved up about 2mm due to the tab keeping it in line with the receiver shearing off, which put a kink in the stock bolt.

I'd wondered why there was a kink in the bolt (really a double ended threaded rod) when I got it, so I fitted the straight end into the receiver, so now it's kinked the same way both ends :D

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The thread should be 1/4-20 unc (studding and nuts available on the bay) some later models used metric M6

Using studding enables the bolting on of weights within the stock to improve balance, you will need an old fashioned long box spanner or very long socket to tighten the last nut if like me you leave the studding long for the addition of weight

Depending on the hole size in the Black Warrior stock (they do vary) you may be able to sleeve the studding where it passes through the stock for a tight fit and to prevent bending. Use a lock nut after screwing the studding into the trigger block. If your stock separates into pistol grip and stock (some do, some are glued together) you may be able to anchor the PG first and then add the stock for a solid fit.

To prevent creep upwards at the contact point with the receiver a small block can be fitted to the front of the PG/stock assembly that enters the top of the receiver. I used a piece of aluminium. make sure it does not foul the rear of the lifter

 

Edited by impala59
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That's some really specific advice, thanks! The rod I have isn't fully threaded but if I buy some fully threaded rod I could totally anchor the pistol grip like you say.

Mine's a 1982 model. Would that be 1/4-20 unc or M6?

Do you have pics of the block you made? I could probably figure it out but you likely found a neater solution than I could come up with! I already had to sort the rotational problem fouling the action bars/bolt with the use of a file/electrical tape!

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23 hours ago, impala59 said:

Early guns ‘slam fire’ due to simple mechanics and the lack of a nanny state during their production years. Modern litigation saw off these classical systems. The BPS was created after the lawyers took control of design characteristics (around the mid ‘70s I believe) Witness the Ithaca model 37, the trigger mechanism changed to a type that can fail if the trigger is held during the cycle as the hammer will gently ride the bolt into battery and leave a live round in the chamber which must be cycled out before firing can recommence.

 I would be interested to know if anyone has the more complicated, optional  (LE) disconnector trigger which alleviates the above and is rare outside law enforcement circles. Certainly it would be a rare beast this side of the pond and consequently rare and valuable.

Scrummy, glad your 12 is a usable shooter, not a cabinet queen, maybe we’ll see it at the annual pump club shoot later in the year ?

Impala, looking forward to the pump club shoot! See if theshootist can retain his title ;)

Do we have a date and venue yet?

Scrummy

PS I DON'T DO SAFE QUEENS!!!

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2 hours ago, Scrumbag said:

Impala, looking forward to the pump club shoot! See if theshootist can retain his title ;)

Do we have a date and venue yet?

Scrummy

PS I DON'T DO SAFE QUEENS!!!

Nothing set yet, we shot in November last year so plenty of time. I would be happy with the same venue but maybe we should set a precedent and let the reigning top pump choose? Shootist, your call ? It all worked fairly well last year with a loose format, we will have to see what others think 

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23 hours ago, Opossum said:

Much appreciated. I'll pay my dad a visit... he has a well stocked workshop which I'll commandeer to make a block and offer up bolts to discover if it's M6 or not :D

OK, so some pics of the Black Warrior stock mod for Ithaca 37. Firstly I do agree with you its a bit of fairly poor design, but given the attachment location probably the best that could be achieved on a budget. Mine also had rotational and sideways issues which I hope will explain the design? (bodge) that I created ;

2135655940_IBW(6).JPG.1a9b580146efa8bc5d2bf04c788b1f22.JPG1059107501_IBW(8).JPG.579c65e0c67a6db3f039f1148eb90b04.JPG1666177401_IBW(9).JPG.33140b5fbf6804a72d727b1dd578a841.JPG

The piece itself is made from an aluminium scrap 24mm wide 10mm high and 20mm deep. With hindsight I should have made the tail longer so the screws were further back and in tandem on the centre line which would enable nyloc nuts to be fitted. The arch shape gives contact right across the receiver and the forward extended side tabs give sideways and anti-rotation stability. The front is cut back at an angle to give clearance to the bolt and lifter movements. The 'pitched roof' shape mates with the inside of the pistol grip section. The green is traces of Loctite

1341790334_IBW(2).JPG.28b12526ae0fdec0914697d42ee3b781.JPG In situ, from the top, showing the fixing (and poor countersinking!)

 

IBW (10).JPGThe parts laid out showing in order from the receiver back,

spacer, fits over threaded part of trigger plate out to forward face of inner pistol grip.

Pistol Grip.

Penny washer (snug fit in rear of pistol grip)

nut.

nut.

washer.

Piece of 1/4" bore rubber fuel line, when compressed between two nuts it expands widthways to form a snug fit in the stock hole.

washer.

nut.

Stock, with front locator stub relieved to accommodate the penny washer.

Large washer to fit snug on outer dimension.

Penny washer to fit snug on threaded shaft.

lock washer.

nut.

Rubber cover plug

 

IBW (13).JPGThe part that I could not take apart (Loctite 270)

IBW (15).JPGThe rear of Pistol Grip and expanding sleeve

IBW (17).JPGSide view of same

I hope that this helps you, or at least guides you in a direction to stabilise your stock. If you have no side ways movement you could probably simplify and just duplicate the missing moulded plastic tab top and centre

Edit... The only thing not shown is my counter weight which is a 2" lead slug that is bolted on last (after the stock is fixed in place with an extra washer and nut) A friend is trying it in his semi at the moment.

Final edit.......please remember that the trigger plate retaining screw should not be too tight, the tightening of the stock, whether you do that at the pistol grip or the rear of the stock, imparts a sideways tension on the trigger plate screw to lock it in place. Over tighten it and you will clamp the working parts in the receiver which will cause jamming, premature wear and ultimately damage. Sorry if I’m preaching to the converted but I have seen many scrap guns with chewed up screws and crushed receivers with destroyed innards. (The crushed screw is evidence of someone attempting to take the gun down without removing or at least loosening, the stock first, Savage/Stevens share this problem)

Edited by impala59
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3 minutes ago, impala59 said:

[very detailed post with super-helpful pics]

Perfect! Thanks very much. I've ordered some UNC bar and some nuts and will head over to my dad's workshop at the weekend to fab up an anti-lift device along with spacers to go inside the stock to fix the damn thing.

 

Also, has anyone encountered an Ithaca safety with absolutely no detent holes in the switch? Mine had none and the stupid thing just slid wherever it wanted. I drilled some shallow holes and it stays put but if I ever shoot left handed if I brush the safety it puts it on. I'd love a factory switch with proper detent dimples

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50 minutes ago, Opossum said:

Perfect! Thanks very much. I've ordered some UNC bar and some nuts and will head over to my dad's workshop at the weekend to fab up an anti-lift device along with spacers to go inside the stock to fix the damn thing.

 

Also, has anyone encountered an Ithaca safety with absolutely no detent holes in the switch? Mine had none and the stupid thing just slid wherever it wanted. I drilled some shallow holes and it stays put but if I ever shoot left handed if I brush the safety it puts it on. I'd love a factory switch with proper detent dimples

Its why I modified to a rotational, ambidextrous safety, (Also on my Remington 1187 and Valtro PM5.) You might try a stronger spring for the detent which should hold the safety in place

Edit......there seems to be an issue with some model 37’s where the safety falls out, I have come across a few minus the safety catch detent pin and spring. This is very odd as when taking down the trigger assembly, the safety is the last part removed as it is locked in place by the rear tab on the trigger. Baffling!

Edited by impala59
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Apropos of a prior discussion on case deflectors, herewith the latest incarnation, fetchingly modelled by 'Enry the 'Iggins.

 Deflector_1.jpg

Deflector_2.jpg

Made from half a sheet of Kydex, left over from another project.

Haven't done a live fire test yet, but it works fine with drill rounds.

Edited by CaptainBeaky
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