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Swiss gun ownership. NRA arguments seem to ring hollow


aris
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If they check your criminal & medical records - then it is vetting. Not much different to getting a SGC in the UK and quite sensible. Unfortunately any idiot in the US can legally get hold of a gun with no vetting whatsoever.

 

They can't though because they have prohibited persons, such as criminals, just like we do. In fact, in some cases the law is even stricter because if you have a domestic restraining order against you (which is apparenely quite common in divorces, etc) you cannot purchase or possess firearms and these orders are often handed out with little proof that you have done anything wrong. Also, any sale by a dealer will be background checked.

 

Yes, it's much easier to do it via a private sale but that still doesn't make it legal if you are a prohibited person. Easy to do illegally but not legal.

 

It isn't necessarily the sale side of things the Americans need to look at it's things like who is allowed access to firearms after they have been lawfully purchased or acquired. Many of the mass shootings have been carried out by people who weren't the legal owner of the gun. In addition, they really, really need to do something about their mental health care. Most, if not all, of the people who perpetrate these things are psychologically disturbed and very often their friends and family know that they are.

 

J.

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Who is to say there would not be an even higher incidence of misuse without the restrictions? I suspect there would. I am an ex-handgun owner (though not in the UK). Do I miss owning one? Kind of - I did enjoy shooting it at the range, but on the whole, I prefer living in a society without handguns. I didn't own a gun for sport and to be honest I don't want another - mainly because I don't _need_ one for personal protection in the UK. I live in a society where i'm HIGHLY unlikely to come across an adversary pointing a firearm at me. I'm also highly unlikely to be accosted by a policeman with a firearm. You may well take these things for granted - but believe me it is not the norm in most other places in the world. This is something you should be proud of and cherish.

 

I really do feel for sportsmen who can no longer own a handgun for their sport - but sometimes the needs of society outweigh the needs of the few.

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Did you two just fall asleep and miss the biggest shooting show in the country or something? There were million of pounds worth of all manner of guns to be bought - legally.

 

LS&B you may be happy to give up your clay pigeon shooting in the name of sensible gun control(after all our last massacre was committed with a DB shotgun) but I am not happy to have given up mine in the name of sensible gun control. The self loading rifle ban worked, so did the pistol ban, I cant argue with that.

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For Britain - I think they are mostly sensible. We don't live in the early 1900's - we live in the early 2000's. The world has changed a fair bit.

 

The princliple is fairly sensibe, I suppose, but not the implimentation. Lots of things which shouldn't be banned are banned and are banned because of highly spurious logic.

 

J.

Edited by JonathanL
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No I believe that an armed society is a polite society.

 

There is some truth in that. One only has to look at SGC or FAC holders - I think they go out of their way to keep their noses clean with respect of the law. They know that if they have any black marks on their record, they may well have their certificates taken.

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Who is to say there would not be an even higher incidence of misuse without the restrictions? I suspect there would. I am an ex-handgun owner (though not in the UK). Do I miss owning one? Kind of - I did enjoy shooting it at the range, but on the whole, I prefer living in a society without handguns. I didn't own a gun for sport and to be honest I don't want another - mainly because I don't _need_ one for personal protection in the UK. I live in a society where i'm HIGHLY unlikely to come across an adversary pointing a firearm at me. I'm also highly unlikely to be accosted by a policeman with a firearm. You may well take these things for granted - but believe me it is not the norm in most other places in the world. This is something you should be proud of and cherish.

 

I really do feel for sportsmen who can no longer own a handgun for their sport - but sometimes the needs of society outweigh the needs of the few.

 

In this case they don't though. If you claim that they do then surely shotguns should be banned after Derek Bird's rampage? They weren't though, nor will they be because there are too many people to annoy who own them and, importantly, too many of the right people who own them.

 

J.

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Who is to say there would not be an even higher incidence of misuse without the restrictions? I suspect there would. I am an ex-handgun owner (though not in the UK). Do I miss owning one? Kind of - I did enjoy shooting it at the range, but on the whole, I prefer living in a society without handguns. I didn't own a gun for sport and to be honest I don't want another - mainly because I don't _need_ one for personal protection in the UK. I live in a society where i'm HIGHLY unlikely to come across an adversary pointing a firearm at me. I'm also highly unlikely to be accosted by a policeman with a firearm. You may well take these things for granted - but believe me it is not the norm in most other places in the world. This is something you should be proud of and cherish.

 

I really do feel for sportsmen who can no longer own a handgun for their sport - but sometimes the needs of society outweigh the needs of the few.

 

Aris i lived in NI until I was 18 I was surronded by police and soldiers with guns and felt much safer for it, I was in the law abiding faction of the population. NI was(note I say was) actually very safe from a crime and violent crime point of view, when you discounted the murders, shootings and bombings that were'politically' motivated. The reasons for the low domestic crime rate was the number of guns carried on a daily basis by the law abiding and irionicaly the terrorists who did there own form of 'pest' control.

 

Let if be known our only true gun massacre in NI, that was not terrorist related, was committed by a serving police officer(although you could still say it was connected with the situation)

 

The firearms conrols in NI are even more sensible than the UK, everything on FAC, no automatic right to grant, no one for one, pistols all 'finger printed' but it was strange we also had the most advanced terrorist force in the world with access to heavy wheaponary.

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Aris i lived in NI until I was 18 I was surronded by police and soldiers with guns and felt much safer for it, I was in the law abiding faction of the population. NI was(note I say was) actually very safe from a crime and violent crime point of view, when you discounted the murders, shootings and bombings that were'politically' motivated. The reasons for the low domestic crime rate was the number of guns carried on a daily basis by the law abiding and irionicaly the terrorists who did there own form of 'pest' control.

 

Let if be known our only true gun massacre in NI, that was not terrorist related, was committed by a serving police officer(although you could still say it was connected with the situation)

 

The firearms conrols in NI are even more sensible than the UK, everything on FAC, no automatic right to grant, no one for one, pistols all 'finger printed' but it was strange we also had the most advanced terrorist force in the world with access to heavy wheaponary.

 

I have to say that that is probably the only part I disagree with. There should not be a system in place where anything is essentially in the gift of whomever is in charge. Parliament lays down rules as to who is allowed to do what and the department charged with administering the system should follow those rules. If various things start to become priviledges then you start going down the dangerous route to a discriminatory state.

 

Having said that, I can see how it camw about given the rather unique situation in NI.

 

J.

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Did you two just fall asleep and miss the biggest shooting show in the country or something? There were million of pounds worth of all manner of guns to be bought - legally.

In this case they don't though. If you claim that they do then surely shotguns should be banned after Derek Bird's rampage? They weren't though, nor will they be because there are too many people to annoy who own them and, importantly, too many of the right people who own them.

 

J.

 

I went to the shooting show and saw hundreds of derek bird massacre weapons, double barrelled shotguns. I think in light of the 87 and 97 acts they should really be banned. It wouldnt effect me I dont own a db shotgun.

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LS&B you may be happy to give up your clay pigeon shooting in the name of sensible gun control(after all our last massacre was committed with a DB shotgun) but I am not happy to have given up mine in the name of sensible gun control. The self loading rifle ban worked, so did the pistol ban, I cant argue with that.

 

Then for the love of god what is it you're creating about? Shotguns face no immediate prospect of being banned (be they for game or clays), so what's your beef?

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No I believe that an armed society is a polite society. I am not proud to live in Britain I am actually ashamed we have such bad gun control. This sort of defeatist attitude will not get us very far.

 

And the fact that there are over 30,000 gun-related deaths in the US every year doesn't dint your ardour in that completely specious assertion?

 

Let's see you back up your "beliefs" with some hard and impartial evidence - or is that too much to ask?

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And the fact that there are over 30,000 gun-related deaths in the US every year doesn't dint your ardour in that completely specious assertion?

 

Let's see you back up your "beliefs" with some hard and impartial evidence - or is that too much to ask?

 

If you look at the statistics 80% of those deaths are black on black gang related, its a culture thing, just like the gang culture in the Uk starting to arm themselves.

 

That leaves the other 20% which is of course massive compared to the UK but a lot of these are the same gang members using guns on the 'law abiding' amercians. Of course the numbers are still astronomically high. However you also have to look at the varitaion between states and counties, some have alot of restricions like califonia and also have the major proportion of the shootings, while some have few restricitons like Arizona and are low crime areas.

 

This is only a summary of a scientific study I read and yes it was impartially written by pro gun academics!

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Then for the love of god what is it you're creating about? Shotguns face no immediate prospect of being banned (be they for game or clays), so what's your beef?

 

I have read your posts on this subject on this and other boards and can see that is why you are so vocal. You know that you will be the last to loose your shotguns after all other forms of shooting have been banned. Your tone in those has been arrogant, demeaning and bullying.

 

This has led me to only one conclusion you are an **********.

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Aris i lived in NI until I was 18 I was surronded by police and soldiers with guns and felt much safer for it, I was in the law abiding faction of the population. NI was(note I say was) actually very safe from a crime and violent crime point of view, when you discounted the murders, shootings and bombings that were'politically' motivated. The reasons for the low domestic crime rate was the number of guns carried on a daily basis by the law abiding and irionicaly the terrorists who did there own form of 'pest' control.

 

Let if be known our only true gun massacre in NI, that was not terrorist related, was committed by a serving police officer(although you could still say it was connected with the situation)

 

The firearms conrols in NI are even more sensible than the UK, everything on FAC, no automatic right to grant, no one for one, pistols all 'finger printed' but it was strange we also had the most advanced terrorist force in the world with access to heavy wheaponary.

 

I lived in South Africa for 12 years - the murder & rape capital of the world. I conceal carried a .38 with HydraShock and THV ammo (Google them if you are unfamiliar). Police regularly carried assault rifles, and a fair few civilians were firearm holders. Did I feel safer for it? Not really. The criminals just adapted for the situation - they would out gun and out number you on the assumption that you were carrying. In fact, in retrospect, you had a better chance of surviving a something like a hijack or home invasion if you were unarmed and cooperative (I only realise this with 20/20 hindesight). This is why I now live in the UK :-)

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I have read your posts on this subject on this and other boards and can see that is why you are so vocal. You know that you will be the last to loose your shotguns after all other forms of shooting have been banned. Your tone in those has been arrogant, demeaning and bullying.

 

This has led me to only one conclusion you are an **********.

 

Like I said, a whiner.

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If you look at the statistics 80% of those deaths are black on black gang related, its a culture thing, just like the gang culture in the Uk starting to arm themselves.

 

Ah, so because some of these deaths are gang-related, that makes it OK then...?

 

That leaves the other 20% which is of course massive compared to the UK but a lot of these are the same gang members using guns on the 'law abiding' amercians. Of course the numbers are still astronomically high. However you also have to look at the varitaion between states and counties, some have alot of restricions like califonia and also have the major proportion of the shootings, while some have few restricitons like Arizona and are low crime areas.

 

This is only a summary of a scientific study I read and yes it was impartially written by pro gun academics!

 

We'll be the judge of this alleged study's impartiality - please post your source for it so we can judge for ourselves.

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Ah, so because some of these deaths are gang-related, that makes it OK then...?

 

 

 

We'll be the judge of this alleged study's impartiality - please post your source for it so we can judge for ourselves.

 

If black gang members want to go around shooting each other as long as I don't get hit in the cross fire I am fine with it. I don't see why I should suffer because of their stupidity

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I lived in South Africa for 12 years - the murder & rape capital of the world. I conceal carried a .38 with HydraShock and THV ammo (Google them if you are unfamiliar). Police regularly carried assault rifles, and a fair few civilians were firearm holders. Did I feel safer for it? Not really. The criminals just adapted for the situation - they would out gun and out number you on the assumption that you were carrying. In fact, in retrospect, you had a better chance of surviving a something like a hijack or home invasion if you were unarmed and cooperative (I only realise this with 20/20 hindesight). This is why I now live in the UK :-)

 

Bull **** the police constantly lecture us that criminals take the easy option, if you have a burgle alarm/dog, double glazing the will move on and burgle your neighbour. It is a know fact also publicised by the police that farms are less likely to get robbed because of the presence of guns.

 

By your eckoning Jonny robber would be ' adapting to the situation by running arond the country side with an assult rifle.

 

Cooperate? What is this country coming to that we allow people in who think we should just lie down and hand over our possesions when we are asked by criminals.

 

I would rather die fighting than lie down like a dog and be raped and robbed. Actually by your reckoning the police should do the same otherwise the criminals will adapt and out gun/ out number them.

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Ah, so because some of these deaths are gang-related, that makes it OK then...?

 

 

 

We'll be the judge of this alleged study's impartiality - please post your source for it so we can judge for ourselves.

 

You need to order and read the books I am afraid, I dont know if they are available online.

 

Once you have read them you will either have opened your mind or decided they are pro gun bull ****.

 

Duns and Violence by Joyce Lee Malcolm

This is a book on the history of firearms control in the UK

 

Firearms Control by Colin Greenwood (Chief Inspector)

Very well researched and readable history of firearms control in the UK and by a serving police officer no less!

 

Targeting Guns by Gary Kleck

I found this book hard work, it is very academic(not enough picturs!). It is a study of firearms control in the USA

It has very good individual chapters on 'sensible controls' like assult rifles, high cap magazines etc. A basic summary is that these are emotional controls, for instance assault rifles are not a crime problem.

Edited by wildrover77
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Bull **** the police constantly lecture us that criminals take the easy option, if you have a burgle alarm/dog, double glazing the will move on and burgle your neighbour. It is a know fact also publicised by the police that farms are less likely to get robbed because of the presence of guns.

 

By your eckoning Jonny robber would be ' adapting to the situation by running arond the country side with an assult rifle.

 

Cooperate? What is this country coming to that we allow people in who think we should just lie down and hand over our possesions when we are asked by criminals.

 

I would rather die fighting than lie down like a dog and be raped and robbed. Actually by your reckoning the police should do the same otherwise the criminals will adapt and out gun/ out number them.

 

Sorry - but you've never lived in South Africa - so you cannot comment on the situation there where life is cheap and taking a life means nothing if you're in the way. If every household was armed in the UK - you would have more armed robbers. Quite simple.

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Sorry - but you've never lived in South Africa - so you cannot comment on the situation there where life is cheap and taking a life means nothing if you're in the way. If every household was armed in the UK - you would have more armed robbers. Quite simple.

 

How do you know I have never lived in south africa? Do I have to live there for 12 years for it to count?

 

I am afraid that more guns would mean more armed roberies is your supposition no 'quite simple' logic. I fully understand where you are coming from with that supposition but you are quite simply wrong. The explosion in armed robberies took place in the 60's in the uk, they have since disappeared not because of stricter controls on DBL shtguns( they wheapon of choice for armed robberies at the time) but becuase of the lack of cash available in todays world.

 

If you read the above books you will find that 100 years ago everone in the uk had a gun(bit of a generalisation) and we did not have lots of armed roberies then. That one fact blows apart your theory that more guns means more robberies. If you are not happy with that then look out side the uk to other countires with higher rates of gun ownership and no corresponding rate of increase in armed robberies.

 

Or just keep quoting you uneducated and illogical ******** opinion along with trying to look cool by talking about packing THV amunition, Why have a mix?

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Ok, so have you lived there?

 

I've never spoke about armed robberies - I can assure you that cash-in-transit guards are well armed in South Africa - and there is a fairly high mortality rate (how many dead cash-in-transit guards in the UK? I'll guess alot less). I'm speaking about home invasions and car hijackings - crimes on individuals. As a single person carrying a firearm - you have little hope in defending yourself against a group of well prepared assailants who do not value your life. No doubt you're a highly trained Rambo and you could pick them off like flies before they got a shot on you - but your average person could not. It is not uncommon in South African car hijackings for them to frisk you for firearms - if they find one, they use it on you. But of course South Africa isn't Britain or the USA. As per my THV & HydraShock example - in retrospect my carrying that was total insanity. I may have thought it made me feel safer - or "look cool" in in reality - it was all in my head. The REALITY was that I was not safer with that fire arm. I'm no Rambo - and most people aren't either.

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Ok, so have you lived there?

 

I've never spoke about armed robberies - I can assure you that cash-in-transit guards are well armed in South Africa - and there is a fairly high mortality rate (how many dead cash-in-transit guards in the UK? I'll guess alot less). I'm speaking about home invasions and car hijackings - crimes on individuals. As a single person carrying a firearm - you have little hope in defending yourself against a group of well prepared assailants who do not value your life. No doubt you're a highly trained Rambo and you could pick them off like flies before they got a shot on you - but your average person could not. It is not uncommon in South African car hijackings for them to frisk you for firearms - if they find one, they use it on you. But of course South Africa isn't Britain or the USA. As per my THV & HydraShock example - in retrospect my carrying that was total insanity. I may have thought it made me feel safer - or "look cool" in in reality - it was all in my head. The REALITY was that I was not safer with that fire arm. I'm no Rambo - and most people aren't either.

 

In a car jacking why would you let an unarmed attacker take your gun of you?

 

In Northern Ireland at its peak you had 10,000 of duty soldiers, 10,000 of duty police and 5000 'civilians aryying guns to protect themselves from killers not robbers. Often they never got a chance to use them(because they were shot in the back) and they were stolen and used in other murders. However you you think they would have been safer without being given personal protection weapons? or how about the military having just been given 25,000 glocks for pp in Afganistan.

 

If you look at the evidence trained police actually make more mistakes with guns than untrained civilians. Why? because when the police turn up with guns they have not been wirtness to the whole situation and when they turn up at a gun incident they are on edge and mentaly prepared to shoot someone. If you are involved in a incident from the start you see the whole thing you have greater knowledge of who is a friend and who a foe.

 

My experience of south africa is you have to use common sense and take sensible security precautions first and carry a gun as a last resort. They dont care whteher you are carrying or not the rob you and then shoot you or shoot you and then rob you the only other permutation is if you are female then they rape you too.

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In a car jacking why would you let an unarmed attacker take your gun of you?

 

They aren't unarmed. It goes like this:

 

4 guys appear out of nowhere - two of them have guns at your head. You have two choices: Cooperate or die.

You get out of the car, they ask you if you have a gun. If you lie, they take it off you and probably kill you. If you tell the truth (and have a gun) they might be kind and just take it off you.

They take the rest of your valuables off your person. They ask you if you where the satellite tracking device on your vehicle is. They know you have one because of the type of vehicle you are driving and it being a requirement for insurance purposes (on higer-end vehicles, but by no means only porsche/ferrari high end). Give them any trouble, they kill you.

 

In Northern Ireland at its peak you had 10,000 of duty soldiers, 10,000 of duty police and 5000 'civilians aryying guns to protect themselves from killers not robbers. Often they never got a chance to use them(because they were shot in the back) and they were stolen and used in other murders. However you you think they would have been safer without being given personal protection weapons? or how about the military having just been given 25,000 glocks for pp in Afganistan.

 

If you look at the evidence trained police actually make more mistakes with guns than untrained civilians. Why? because when the police turn up with guns they have not been wirtness to the whole situation and when they turn up at a gun incident they are on edge and mentaly prepared to shoot someone. If you are involved in a incident from the start you see the whole thing you have greater knowledge of who is a friend and who a foe.

 

What evidence might that be? Got a credible reference?

 

My experience of south africa is you have to use common sense and take sensible security precautions first and carry a gun as a last resort. They dont care whteher you are carrying or not the rob you and then shoot you or shoot you and then rob you the only other permutation is if you are female then they rape you too.

 

Your experience appears to be zero.

Edited by aris
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