SPRINGADOR'S

[kent]

A great deal of care goes into breeding the best working lurchers. In fairness often a lot more than goes into a lot of so called "good bred" gundogs were often the owner of the bitch books the stud without seeing it first in the flesh or at work or to be fair without really knowing its temperament type and personality. problem with crossing a springer with a lab is your likely to get one of three things 1. a bad lab 2, a bad springer 3. a dog that struggles to come to terms with what its purpose. Lurchers are totally different - being essentially a hybrid not a mongrel (or should be) as the purpose should be to put working ability and tractability into a fast dog, ruthlessly selected and line bred to the desired requirements some cracking dogs are created. Ok some trash, but there is a stack of trash gundogs bred every year with full pedigrees and red letters. I don't get a springador myself but I very much get a cocker x ess as there is less conflict. Wildfowlers have little need of a trial bred dog that lacks coat, is too high strung and thinks water work is entering a mill pond for a cold pigeon, not that they are all like that just many and it seems some of the judges don't even know how to kill a bird by hand reading last weeks shooting times!

[WGD]

Kent, I am I agreement with much of what you say with the exception that you shouldn't believe what you read in the ST! Trial bred labs can be light and fast and those type of dogs have their place, I have one and he is hard to beat picking up. Fast and light they may be, but that translates as agile and fast, it's not all about water work and if I was looking for a foreshore dog I would look for a different type of lab... or a Chesapeake or a goldie. Which takes us back to the original point, with breeding you have half a chance of knowing what you are getting.

[malantone]

Get the springer and keep the wife happy, or what about a Sprocker they`re brilliant

[kent]

Kent, I am I agreement with much of what you say with the exception that you shouldn't believe what you read in the ST! Trial bred labs can be light and fast and those type of dogs have their place, I have one and he is hard to beat picking up. Fast and light they may be, but that translates as agile and fast, it's not all about water work and if I was looking for a foreshore dog I would look for a different type of lab... or a Chesapeake or a goldie. Which takes us back to the original point, with breeding you have half a chance of knowing what you are getting.

Now to avoid being a hypocrite I have a very " trial bred" Lab out of a very famous kennels . He is fast but well built with an excellent double coat and hellishly good in water ( so one can only generalise in describing dog type). I don't believe all that is said but I do see more and more trial guys who know nothing much about shooting, its the same with Sheep dogs. I don't know if you read the article I was reffering to. Thing is I hear this sort of thing from keepers and other dog men constantly and if you visit the gundog forums its patently obvious most members don't shoot and come to the sport through dogs. With this happening can you please explain how we are NOT going to get judges who like the flashy, quick dogs that are put onto the spot by handling not game sense and nose. I will leave you with this one. Asking a local sheepdog trainer, trailer and sheep farmer if there was much difference in a trial dog and a farm dog his answer was " not if you want your sheep bringing off the hill 12 at a time" " and provided you are happy to force them into the trailer yourself, coz trial dogs have no teeth and the sheep get to know this" I for one don't want our breeds changing away from the " best gundog" ideal

[WGD]

Kent - a sheep farmer said the same thing to me about trial dogs ability to gather.

 

I think as long as there are shooters there will be dogs for shooters. And as long as trialling is popular, which is it increasingly, dogs will be bred to win trials.

 

I agree 100% that a huge number of gundog owners are not shooters and know nothing about it, that is not a criticism but a statement of what in my opinion is fact. It is also how many people end up with problems, if they knew from the outset what they wanted to achieve in training they would have managed it. But when wee benny the cocker (bought because Wills and Kate have one) has spent his first 18 months having lovely "walks" - aka self hunting & self rewarding - they wonder why he won't recall.

[washerboy]

be different buy a border collie

[al4x]

Oh please god lets not have the border collie being the next wop pointer

[Actionpigeons]

be different buy a border collie

I dont think my farmers would be to pleased if I shot a sheep, err that's what border collies work or am I wrong Edited March 5, 2013 by Actionpigeons

[kent]

Kent - a sheep farmer said the same thing to me about trial dogs ability to gather.

 

I think as long as there are shooters there will be dogs for shooters. And as long as trialling is popular, which is it increasingly, dogs will be bred to win trials.

 

I agree 100% that a huge number of gundog owners are not shooters and know nothing about it, that is not a criticism but a statement of what in my opinion is fact. It is also how many people end up with problems, if they knew from the outset what they wanted to achieve in training they would have managed it. But when wee benny the cocker (bought because Wills and Kate have one) has spent his first 18 months having lovely "walks" - aka self hunting & self rewarding - they wonder why he won't recall.

 

 

And what are your thoughts about similar happening to "the shooting mans dog"? I think retrievers will become less suited in physical type and a bit too dependant on input from the handler and the hunting breeds a little too hot for the average rough shooter out for a mooch. I use sheepdogs as a comparison because to some admitting their gundog might not be best suited is like saying " my wife sleeps around ". Though it seems some think the two things cannot be compared IMO they are very directly comparable. Sheepdog trials have just taken that leap from work to competitive dog sport quicker. Our breed heritage might now become damaged by something that was meant to improve it I fear, as such maybe an amount of suitable (and I don't think the springador is suitable) out of breed outcrossing might be good for our "shooting" dogs. Effectively it will bar them from trials but for quick example if you wanted to bring a whippet lab without much coat back into type a little chessie in there say might not be a bad thing? Cocker x springer etc. these are not bad things to a shooting man to my mind and were often done by our predecessors. Resulting off spring can even breed to type if done correctly

[Actionpigeons]

And what are your thoughts about similar happening to "the shooting mans dog"? I think retrievers will become less suited in physical type and a bit too dependant on input from the handler and the hunting breeds a little too hot for the average rough shooter out for a mooch. I use sheepdogs as a comparison because to some admitting their gundog might not be best suited is like saying " my wife sleeps around ". Though it seems some think the two things cannot be compared IMO they are very directly comparable. Sheepdog trials have just taken that leap from work to competitive dog sport quicker. Our breed heritage might now become damaged by something that was meant to improve it I fear, as such maybe an amount of suitable (and I don't think the springador is suitable) out of breed outcrossing might be good for our "shooting" dogs. Effectively it will bar them from trials but for quick example if you wanted to bring a whippet lab without much coat back into type a little chessie in there say might not be a bad thing? Cocker x springer etc. these are not bad things to a shooting man to my mind and were often done by our predecessors. Resulting off spring can even breed to type if done correctly

I really don't agree with this line of thought.

I know of a cpl of litter of 3/4 bred springer 1/4 cockers being sold as springers with no papers.

I would never buy a dog that was not fully KC reg.

 

I have just bred a litter of what I would call good working labs. I used a dog that will be a FTCH prity soon, more importantly I have seen the sire work and like his style and his character, and put it over my bitch that has only ever worked with me in the field picking up and pigeon shooting. The combination of the up and coming FTCH with a down to earth working bitch should produce good steady pups that would suit any shooting man.

If I wanted to field trailing dog I would buy one that had lots of FTCH in the pedigree and from a dog I had watched work.

 

There is no reason to cross breed shooting dogs, buy the dog that fits most of the work you intend to give it.

Buying a cross bred dog you really don't know what you will end up with. The OP was asking about a lab x Springer ( a mongrel)

we are not talking about lurcher's or sight hounds where cross-breeding some times improves the dog for the type of work some one is looking for.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Actionpigeons

[defender.90]

i have one hes about 4 now . he was easy to train will go in cover. where as labs wont. id recomend one anyday.

[Dave C]

i have one hes about 4 now . he was easy to train will go in cover. where as labs wont. id recomend one anyday.

 

SOME Labs wont i agree, but there is alot of hard hunting labs out there if you bother to look for the right working lines.

Mine is only just over 21" and flyes through the brambles and gourse like a terrier.

[kent]

i have one hes about 4 now . he was easy to train will go in cover. where as labs wont. id recomend one anyday.

rubbish that's like saying spaniels don't like water

[kent]

I really don't agree with this line of thought.

I know of a cpl of litter of 3/4 bred springer 1/4 cockers being sold as springers with no papers.

I would never buy a dog that was not fully KC reg.

 

I have just bred a litter of what I would call good working labs. I used a dog that will be a FTCH prity soon, more importantly I have seen the sire work and like his style and his character, and put it over my bitch that has only ever worked with me in the field picking up and pigeon shooting. The combination of the up and coming FTCH with a down to earth working bitch should produce good steady pups that would suit any shooting man.

If I wanted to field trailing dog I would buy one that had lots of FTCH in the pedigree and from a dog I had watched work.

 

There is no reason to cross breed shooting dogs, buy the dog that fits most of the work you intend to give it.

Buying a cross bred dog you really don't know what you will end up with. The OP was asking about a lab x Springer ( a mongrel)

we are not talking about lurcher's or sight hounds where cross-breeding some times improves the dog for the type of work some one is looking for.

I cannot support anything like that its dishonest. KC is taken as more than it is by many. Workwise I cannot see the issue with a 1/4 bred cocker / springer outside of trialing and outside of puppy's for cash. workwise the breeds both head in the same direction, same as with terriers there is nothing much conflicting

[WGD]

Workwise I cannot see the issue with a 1/4 bred cocker / springer outside of trialing and outside of puppy's for cash. workwise the breeds both head in the same direction, same as with terriers there is nothing much conflicting

 

For me the loss in this case is not in the ability of the dog, but in the traceability of the lineage.

[kent]

For me the loss in this case is not in the ability of the dog, but in the traceability of the lineage.

agreed, I should want to know that and its hardly something one might lie about having already admitted the non pure pedigree - there would be little point continuing the line unless you had guaranteed orders anyway, its not like subsequent further pups would fetch great money so most might be better cut or chopped.

[WGD]

No issues with first crosses as working dogs, where you can see papers for the sire and dam but where do you the draw the line? One of the pups turns out to be the best spaniel bitch ever to walk the earth, what do you mate her to, what do you call it, how do you maintain the best qualities. All only possible with refined and traceable breeding and whilst there is merit in your argument I can't see how it would work longer term to produce quality dogs. Well actually I can see how it works, you end up with a breed and a pedigree and then... Oh hang on, we've already got a system like that!

[Actionpigeons]

agreed, I should want to know that and its hardly something one might lie about having already admitted the non pure pedigree - there would be little point continuing the line unless you had guaranteed orders anyway, its not like subsequent further pups would fetch great money so most might be better cut or chopped.

I bred a litter of very well springers a cpl of years ago, a friend of mine had a litter at the same time (spring pups).

Mine where KC reg his where not.

I got £400.00 for the dogs and found them hard work to sell, and £450.00 for the bitches.

My friend sold all his with no paper work for £350.00.

Now when you take into account the cost of a good stud dog, reg with the KC, me making sure they are well fed and heat over them, I would say its a toss-up who made more money out of the breeding.

yet one more reason not to by a cross bred dog or one without papers.

We need well bred dogs for shooting, not mongrels.

Some of us go out of our way to use and breed the best possible dogs for the field, others buy any dog and hope for pot-luck.

If it ends up half right, and some do end up goodish workers, they breed from it and those pups end up out there spoiling the working lines of other dogs.

really cant see any reason to buy a cross bred dog or one with no paper work as there are plenty of well bred KC reg dogs out there.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Actionpigeons

[kent]

Some of us don't actually want to make money out of the dogs and I think this might be were it should end. two choices don't breed (something a few gundog owners should seriously not do ever period) or only take one litter and place them with other guys with the same thoughts.

[pegleg31]

i have one hes about 4 now . he was easy to train will go in cover. where as labs wont. id recomend one anyday.

 

You need to tell my lab, that they're not supposed to go into cover then

[Actionpigeons]

Some of us don't actually want to make money out of the dogs and I think this might be were it should end. two choices don't breed (something a few gundog owners should seriously not do ever period) or only take one litter and place them with other guys with the same thoughts.

I agree, people with cross bred dogs or dogs that have no papers should not breed gundogs.

I only ever breed if I want a pup or have orders for pups from friends that have seen my dogs work.

As is the case with the litter of labs I have just bred, 3 pups ordered by friends, all have deposits on them at 8 days old.

It is very naive to think that if I do breed a litter I don't want to make money from doing so to cover my cost and time.

As I said, why buy a mongrels or a dog with no papers when there are plenty of KC reg dogs out there that are bred for purpose.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Actionpigeons

[al4x]

Its because some are too tight to buy decent dogs action pigeons, what they don't realise is getting a health tested decent pup can save you a packet in the long run

[malantone]

Its because some are too tight to buy decent dogs action pigeons, what they don't realise is getting a health tested decent pup can save you a packet in the long run

Buying a pure bred lab can cost you a fortune as well, what with dodgy hips and/or elbows, PRA, and breeding can`t rule them out, my mate bought a Lab both parents KC reg,

at 15month its hips were knackered, a few hundred quid for the dog , and a few hundred more for the vet, my last springer cross never ailed a thing for 15yrs cost me £20 to buy.

The boy on the right is Springer cross Cocker, he`s the replacement and coming on well.

Edited March 7, 2013 by malantone

[al4x]

Buying a pure bred lab can cost you a fortune as well, what with dodgy hips and/or elbows, PRA, and breeding can`t rule them out, my mate bought a Lab both parents KC reg,

at 15month its hips were knackered, a few hundred quid for the dog , and a few hundred more for the vet, my last springer cross never ailed a thing for 15yrs cost me £20 to buy.

The boy on the right is Springer cross Cocker, he`s the replacement and coming on well.

 

you can't rule them out but you can rule out the inherited part of hip dysplasia, it would suggest he didn't look after the dog while it was a pup in that scenario

[malantone]

you can't rule them out but you can rule out the inherited part of hip dysplasia, it would suggest he didn't look after the dog while it was a pup in that scenario

He has two other labs of varying ages which are Ok he didnt work/ train it on soft ground, he is quite capable at training, I would suggest your wrong and even dogs with good hip scores can throw a bad one.