Vipa Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 What's shocks me most is the "don't rock the boat" and "you must obey your superior" sentiment. Really... So you don't think you should do as the gaffer says??? What's the point in management if that's the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 What's the point in management if that's the case? The point of management is to get the best out of the workforce and supply the tools, information and support for workforce ...... Not to lord it over them just because they can for no real reason! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 The point of management is to get the best out of the workforce and supply the tools, information and support for workforce ...... Not to lord it over them just because they can for no real reason! You ain't going to get the best out of anyone if you can't rely on them to follow instructions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 You ain't going to get the best out of anyone if you can't rely on them to follow instructions The OP is following instructions, ones he does not agree with so is questioning through the proper channels..... What is wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 The OP is following instructions, ones he does not agree with so is questioning through the proper channels..... What is wrong with that? Can you imagine the meltdown in the country if everyone followed that line of thinking just because they did not like or agree with something they were asked to do... If I remember rightly, the trade unions almost destroyed Britain in the 70s and 80s with that very mentality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 If I remember rightly, the trade unions almost destroyed Britain in the 70s and 80s with that very mentality! at least they only "almost destroyed it" unlike the ahem financial guru's who actually manged it. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guest1957 Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Really... So you don't think you should do as the gaffer says??? What's the point in management if that's the case? In my line of work doing what the boss says without question could lead to being struck off if they get it wrong and following orders is no come back. Having staff think for themselves is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Can you imagine the meltdown in the country if everyone followed that line of thinking just because they did not like or agree with something they were asked to do... But this isn't in any way related to doing his job. I'm sure he's done things he hasn't wanted to in the line of duty. The general public being scared of guns are the ones that have never seen one, only films and photos. Logo, would it be worth organising a clay shoot for the station on a day off, or as a team building exercise? If 'yer man sees how civilised it all is he might change his mind. Having staff think for themselves is very important. And it's one thing Brits are quite good at. Nial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) In my line of work doing what the boss says without question could lead to being struck off if they get it wrong and following orders is no come back. Having staff think for themselves is very important. This has got so far removed from the OP that the whole issue is becoming blurred! Of course staff have to think for themselves, they have to be able to think on thier feet and adjust to the situation as it changes... They also have to be able to question instructions and, if necessary not follow them is the situation warrants it... BUT... we are not talking about something to do with work here... we are talking about the site manager making a decision about something completely non work related which impacts upon work and in particular the site and staff he is responsible for.. Lets see... The front line soldier is told by his senior officer to cut the orange wire on the IED.. when he gets there, comms are down and it is obvious to him that it is the blue wire that needs to be cut... of course he cuts the blue wire against instructions.. - yes question or improvise A sales manager tell the seller to ask a certain set of questions to get the result he needs but the responses to those questions are unexpected and the salesman realises he is losing the sale so he improvises and saves it - yes question or improvise I ask my PA to post a letter tomorrow but she realises that if she does that, it won't get there in time so she pops out and posts it now instead - yes question or improvise A secretary asks the boss if she can have an extra hour for lunch tomorrow as it will make her life easier for the badminton match after work.. he says no - end of story A bobby asks his seargent if he can wear jeans and a t-shirt for work tomorrow as he is going to the match after his shift and it would save him having to go home to get changed... he says no - end of story I ask my station commander if I can bring my firearms into work and store them in my locker as it will save me having to go home after my shift to pick it up....He says no... which category of requests/instructions does this fit into? I'm sorry but yes... sometimes questioning the boss is valid, this isn't one of those times... the issue has absolutely nothing to do with work.... NOTHING.... it doesn't affect performance, efficiency, his role in any way... having firearms on the premises COULD affect the other members of the team, his attitude towards the boss COULD affect moral and undermine authority and... as the facility to do this in the past seems to have been either because it wasn't known to the SC or as a personal favour, the probable outcome of challenging this is to back the Fire Service into a corner and get them to take a stance... as this is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with work and with the current global climate with regards to attitude towards guns I would be most surprised if they put it in the rule book as a yes! To those of you who are likening this to questioning an operational instruction as part of your role or responsibilities... just take a step back and think about it for a minute.... it is nothing of the sort. As I said earlier, the fact that the SC has taken the time to contact the FEO about the legalities of it could mean he was just being cautios and was unaware of the legal aspects, he could, based on that information, change his mind but if he doesn't, this is a decision that should just be accepted! Edited March 10, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) at least they only "almost destroyed it" unlike the ahem financial guru's who actually manged it. KW Unfortunately if you don't change you die... the trade unions were/are incapable of seeing that.. don't get me wrong, they do a great job of protecting thier members from injustice and poor management but when the tail starts to wag the dog, as was the case with the trade unions back then, it can only lead to disaster.. As for the financial gurus destroying things now..... sorry but we are all responsible for the mess we are in... individuals, families, companies, councils, governments... we all borrowed too much and now can't pay it back but of course... it's the bamks fault for lending us the money isn't it... of course... couldn't be anything to do with our greed and vanity... nooooooooo Edited March 10, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3vert Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 This has got so far removed from the OP that the whole issue is becoming blurred! Of course staff have to think for themselves, they have to be able to think on thier feet and adjust to the situation as it changes... They also have to be able to question instructions and, if necessary not follow them is the situation warrants it... BUT... we are not talking about something to do with work here... we are talking about the site manager making a decision about something completely non work related which impacts upon work and in particular the site and staff he is responsible for.. Lets see... The front line soldier is told by his senior officer to cut the orange wire on the IED.. when he gets there, comms are down and it is obvious to him that it is the blue wire that needs to be cut... of course he cuts the blue wire against instructions.. - yes question or improvise A sales manager tell the seller to ask a certain set of questions to get the result he needs but the responses to those questions are unexpected and the salesman realises he is losing the sale so he improvises and saves it - yes question or improvise I ask my PA to post a letter tomorrow but she realises that if she does that, it won't get there in time so she pops out and posts it now instead - yes question or improvise A secretary asks the boss if she can have an extra hour for lunch tomorrow as it will make her life easier for the badminton match after work.. he says no - end of story A bobby asks his seargent if he can wear jeans and a t-shirt for work tomorrow as he is going to the match after his shift and it would save him having to go home to get changed... he says no - end of story I ask my station commander if I can bring my firearms into work and store them in my locker as it will save me having to go home after my shift to pick it up....He says no... which category of requests/instructions does this fit into? I'm sorry but yes... sometimes questioning the boss is valid, this isn't one of those times... the issue has absolutely nothing to do with work.... NOTHING.... it doesn't affect performance, efficiency, his role in any way... having firearms on the premises COULD affect the other members of the team, his attitude towards the boss COULD affect moral and undermine authority and... as the facility to do this in the past seems to have been either because it wasn't known to the SC or as a personal favour, the probable outcome of challenging this is to back the Fire Service into a corner and get them to take a stance... as this is ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with work and with the current global climate with regards to attitude towards guns I would be most surprised if they put it in the rule book as a yes! To those of you who are likening this to questioning an operational instruction as part of your role or responsibilities... just take a step back and think about it for a minute.... it is nothing of the sort. As I said earlier, the fact that the SC has taken the time to contact the FEO about the legalities of it could mean he was just being cautios and was unaware of the legal aspects, he could, based on that information, change his mind but if he doesn't, this is a decision that should just be accepted! well said that man :good: :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 I would be amazed if any Employer would sanction a gun being taken into a workplace , unless it was needed for the job in hand. There must be enough H&S, risk assessment, security, etc., issues involved to fill a few filing cabinets. Guns aren't dangerous. If it's unloaded and unlikely to fall into the possession of someone who shouldn't have it then it's no more of a H&S risk than a paper weight. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Guns aren't dangerous. If it's unloaded and unlikely to fall into the possession of someone who shouldn't have it then it's no more of a H&S risk than a paper weight. J. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Guns aren't dangerous. If it's unloaded and unlikely to fall into the possession of someone who shouldn't have it then it's no more of a H&S risk than a paper weight. J. That may well be so but that's not how the vast majority of the non shooting community see them and unfortunately, it is they who we have to pander to... before you say it... I know we SHOULDN'T have to but we do... even shootings in the USA and elsewhere in the world are starting to have an impact on our media and policticians. It is the perception of firearms that is the problem, not the lumps of metal that they actually are! My wife would certainly not agree with you that my rifles and shotguns are no more risky than a paperweight, she used to visibly shake and have anxiety attacks if she was in the same room as me with a gun, my brother in law pleaded with me not to show him my shotgun when I went to get it out of the cabinet and it transpired that he was terrified of firearms. You will find that similar feelings, however irrational, are prevalent in a lot of the public, guns scare them... in most cases we will never change the way they feel so we need a different approach. To keep the peace and get guns in the house at all, it is the wife's wishes and rules I follow. As shooters we tend to get aggresively defensive when it comes to antis when in reality, what we should do, and what works is to actively empathise with them... If they can see that we understand their concerns & fears and modify our behaviour accordingly, peace ensues and everyone gets (almost) what they want! Taking the aggressive stance and demanding our legal rights as the NRA do in the states is not compatible with the UK mentality... I think we sometimes forget just how small, threatened and incredibly fragile a minority the UK shooting community truly is! Edited March 10, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 Unfortunately if you don't change you die... the trade unions were/are incapable of seeing that.. don't get me wrong, they do a great job of protecting thier members from injustice and poor management but when the tail starts to wag the dog, as was the case with the trade unions back then, it can only lead to disaster.. As for the financial gurus destroying things now..... sorry but we are all responsible for the mess we are in... individuals, families, companies, councils, governments... we all borrowed too much and now can't pay it back but of course... it's the bamks fault for lending us the money isn't it... of course... couldn't be anything to do with our greed and vanity... nooooooooo I have said this so many time to people and they still blame the bankers entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pboro shot Posted March 10, 2013 Report Share Posted March 10, 2013 i take guns to work everyday no one seems to mind apart from the rabbits and pigeons ,,,,,but on a bit more serious note i think most people feel uneasy around guns/firearms so needs treating with a little thought unless you really need to dont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amishboy Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I'd take no chances and leave my gear at home and take it as and when needed. I had a right ********** from my manager for collecting a gun from the shop during my lunch hour and bringing it back (broken down and cased) and popping it in the extremely secure (large meds cabinet) for the afternoon. He let me keep it on the premises as lunch time was the only time I could pick it up due to the hours of the shop and my shift work but I was told "Never again" so I rearrange gun time around work now. No point in ******* people off! I agree with Marine 1980 and suggest one drives an extra couple of miles on the appropriate day. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 I ask my station commander if I can bring my firearms into work and store them in my locker as it will save me having to go home after my shift to pick it up....He says no... which category of requests/instructions does this fit into? The same one as "My station commander sends me home to change my shirt because it's green and he doesn't like green shirts" or "My station commander tells me I'm not allowed to keep pruning shears and a gutting knife locked away in my car". ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) The same one as "My station commander sends me home to change my shirt because it's green and he doesn't like green shirts" or "My station commander tells me I'm not allowed to keep pruning shears and a gutting knife locked away in my car". ? give over.... now you are being silly.. Having firearms on work premises is NOT the same as someone liking the colour of a t-shirt or not, and on that note, if the green t-shirt was not uniform then yes he would be quite within his right to send you home! or don't the FS have uniforms any longer? I don't have an office uniform per se but if any of my staff came in to work dressed inapropriately they would be aske to leave the premises until they could come back wearing the correct attire.. has happened twice with people turning up in jeans.. If they continued to flount that requirement then, down the disciplinary road we go and they no longer work for me! so... what you are inferring is that, if there is no legal issue, your employer or it's management has absolutely no authority to request or demand you do anything (or not do it) on THEIR premises, in THEIR time??? You are 'avin a larf mate.. you really need a reality check! Last time I checked, in MY office I was the one who set the required standards, I was the one who wrote the rule book and I am the one who has the last say about pretty much anything that happens on MY premises, particularly when it impacts upon ME and the rest of MY workforce! Edited March 11, 2013 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deker Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) If you're a member of any other non-shooting forums why don't you ask them if they'd be happy with guns at their work place, that will give you a non-biased opinion of the general public's attitude to firearms. It's a no-brainer for me, it's written into the standard contract where I work that no firearms or ammunition are allowed on the premises Edited March 11, 2013 by Deker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 It's a no-brainer for me, it's written into the standard contract where I work that no firearms or ammunition are allowed on the premises Where do you work? Last time I checked, in MY office I was the one who set the required standards, I was the one who wrote the rule book and I am the one who has the last say about pretty much anything that happens on MY premises, particularly when it impacts upon ME and the rest of MY workforce! But you aren't the Chief fire officer......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deker Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Where do you work? Just an IT company, not sure why the specific mention to firearms and ammunition, maybe the owner is an anti or just had a problem in the past but either way it's stated my contract which to be honest is the first time I'm ever noticed it in a contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagsy Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 Can't see what the issue is here. It's your workplace and your boss has made a reasonable decision. I reckon we've all got better things to be getting on with at work than dealing with staff bringing guns in. The problem goes away in the time it takes to write a simple policy document and everyone gets on with their jobs. Sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted March 11, 2013 Report Share Posted March 11, 2013 If you hadn't told them it wouldn't have been a problem. My boss never complains when I do it but I don't advertise the fact no one else needs to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted March 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2013 If you hadn't told them it wouldn't have been a problem. My boss never complains when I do it but I don't advertise the fact no one else needs to know. M He knows I shoot with the works team. He asked me outright and I thought honesty would be the best policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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