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Off to Crufts to look at Large Munsterlander - Good gundog?


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Funnily enough I live in the hill country of the north and my family have been involved with Borders since 1936, so I have an idea what they were bred for and how they carry out that task.

I agree that the mental attitude is of paramount importance and some show lines would come up short on this front.However, I can think of at least four kennels that both show and work their dogs, which is a big reduction since I stopped showing 20 years ago, when nearly half the exhibitors worked their dogs.

4 kennels?, really?.I am amazed at that large amount. But how sickening is that?, out of how manY border kennels in the UK?. A good border works his quarry hard, I have seen a few borders over the years that could do the job well and they were hard dogs on thier quarry. If you put all parts of those together you may have got one complete dog due to the amount of bits missing off each. Which dogs at crufts are like that? Edited by cocker boy
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Thanks guys I was hoping for advice on Large Munsterlanders - I dont think Borders are suitable for a gundog. Interesting reading though.

 

I think the Kennel Club are guilty of many crimes - not least of which is making many breeds smaller and ensuring breeds like the french bulldog have to have cesarians to give birth.

Crufts is however a good place to see all possible breeds at once.

 

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Point taken whoever is responsible its a pitiful shame as Ridgebacks e.g. are supposed to be Lion Gods and the length of their legs these days they'd have a job keeping up with a shetland pony. Same with Rottweilers - pitiful little things lately.

 

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What a ridiculous reply!

 

"They are a HPR"...!!! In other words if it ain't a lab or springer it just won't do.

 

I thought this was a generall "Dog and Dog Training" section, maybe you guys want to get Teal to change it to Labs and Springers only.

 

 

Rant over

 

Maybe you want to think before you type. I never mentioned lab or springer, I referred to the other threads because the type of work the dog does has been debated at length recently.

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Back onto the Large Mustlanders.

 

I only know off 2 working LM's so hardly a fair representation, but 1 is owned by a local stalker who uses it purely for blood tracking and says he will never ever have another german dog, he hates it.

the 2nd was at a hpr training wknd and it used to pull its handler all over the place, she had to resort to a pinch collar, not a nice piece off kit.

 

The 2nd one had very little going for it apart from it's looks in my opinion anyway, just poor and badly trained and the owner was very inexperienced and small built so not a good combimation of such a large strong breed, the stalker has trained quite a few decent gundogs in his time so knows wot he is doing but he just does not rate them in his experience.

 

I'd try and get along to some hpr trails/test's or training days and ask either owners or owners off other breeds wot they think there strength's and weaknesses off LM are.

U don't mention wot type off work/shooting u want to do which obviously will have a massive effect on wether it really is suitable.

Without wanting to come across as a 'bigioted idiot' that i am, if an owner is a fanatic off the breed take wot they say with a pinch off salt and actually get a demo off wot the dog can actually do, all owners think the sunshines out off there chosen dog/breeds behind, but quite often when u see them on a shoot day there having a 'bad' day :whistling: Off course my dogs never have bad days :innocent::whistling:

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Whether it is suitable rarely comes into the equation nowadays. "we like the look of ....." seems the only criteria now. One munsterlander has done well in the field recently but it's not for me, I'd rather watch tomatoes grow. There is a video somewhere on this forum of a longhaired hpr breed out beating, take a look at that. I would have to take up another hobby whilst it worked if it were mine

Edited by cocker boy
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Maybe you want to think before you type. I never mentioned lab or springer, I referred to the other threads because the type of work the dog does has been debated at length recently.

 

I personally think WGD, that you couldn't get it more wrong that you did, you summarizing and generalizing HPR in a single bundle, when every single breed should be discuss in depth, to find out the differencies between similar breeds.

Hpr its a category, it dosent mean that they are all equal in charatcter, phisical, behaviour, hunting and other attributes, every single breed as its own cons and pros, hence they should be discussed, taking into account our experiences and ownersship of these breeds.

 

I would never compare a Vizla to a German shorthair pointer or a Weimaraner.

 

The Large Munsterlander, its a breed that I never had experience on, so I will definetely not comment, but some of us might have and its nice to share our views.

 

Mark

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4 kennels?, really?.I am amazed at that large amount. But how sickening is that?, out of how manY border kennels in the UK?. A good border works his quarry hard, I have seen a few borders over the years that could do the job well and they were hard dogs on thier quarry. If you put all parts of those together you may have got one complete dog due to the amount of bits missing off each. Which dogs at crufts are like that?

 

There are lots of Borders produced round me in fact I think 50% of the most local farms keep one. IMO and experience they make good pets and workers. I am visited weekly by a Border bitch from a farm across the road ( it quite keen on my dog but terrified of me coz I bundle it in the car and drive it back home) sweet and submissive though, one of my best mates has a real keen dog pup of 18mnths its a total phycho on quarry (unfortunately "quarry" is a little too wide ranging in this dog) but it lives in the house and plays with his young son. As for showing? well most of them look like a coconut crossed with a melted welly so that's going to be a non starter

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I personally think WGD, that you couldn't get it more wrong that you did, you summarizing and generalizing HPR in a single bundle, when every single breed should be discuss in depth, to find out the differencies between similar breeds.

Hpr its a category, it dosent mean that they are all equal in charatcter, phisical, behaviour, hunting and other attributes, every single breed as its own cons and pros, hence they should be discussed, taking into account our experiences and ownersship of these breeds.

 

I would never compare a Vizla to a German shorthair pointer or a Weimaraner.

 

The Large Munsterlander, its a breed that I never had experience on, so I will definetely not comment, but some of us might have and its nice to share our views.

 

Mark

 

Mark

 

The LM is an HPR, that is a fact. The OP asked if they were good gundogs. The answer is that one may be a good gundog, for the OP depending on what he is looking for from a dog and what type of shooting he does. And that has, IMO, been the subject of much discussion recently.

 

If you want to refine a description of each and every breed that performs the HPR discipline carry on, but to me there is little point in doing that until the OP establishes if the discipline would suit him, let alone the breed. In the same way as there is little point in debating the merits of each of the spaniel breeds if the OP wants a peg dog.

 

So, personally, I think I got it bang on for the timebeing.

 

 

 

 

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They are an HPR. Look at the recent Hungarian Viszla thread, and do a search for a long thread about a Portugese Pointer. Otherwise this will the another 10 pager...

 

I don't see you asking the OP for what kind of shoot he likes

 

 

 

 

Mark

 

The LM is an HPR, that is a fact. The OP asked if they were good gundogs. The answer is that one may be a good gundog, for the OP depending on what he is looking for from a dog and what type of shooting he does. And that has, IMO, been the subject of much discussion recently.

 

If you want to refine a description of each and every breed that performs the HPR discipline carry on, but to me there is little point in doing that until the OP establishes if the discipline would suit him, let alone the breed. In the same way as there is little point in debating the merits of each of the spaniel breeds if the OP wants a peg dog.

 

So, personally, I think I got it bang on for the timebeing.

 

No, I don't want to write about every breed in the HPR group, but when a different breed comes up, like in this case, we should exspand our views and shared experiences a little more.

 

Mark

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I don't see you asking the OP for what kind of shoot he likes

 

 

I didn't. An HPRs strengths and weaknesses are adequately covered in the threads I recommended, as is the type of shooting they are suited to.

Edited by WGD
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I didn't. An HPRs strengths and weaknesses are adequately covered in the threads I recommended, as is the type of shooting they are suited to.

Well I got what you meant :good: Are they a good gundog? - depends on the purpose I suppose and the training put in then the individual dog and its breeding.

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Time to clear a couple of things up.

I shoot on a driven shoot as a 'gun'. I also beat on this and other shoots. I also buy the odd day's shooting.

When the season ends I also rough shoot, after pigeons etc.

I am also in the process of taking up stalking - not yet bought the rifle.

I also shoot foxes but dont and wouldnt use a dog for that. I have a reasonable record for training and would do this myself.

I hope this gives a few clues.

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Possibly crufts might not be the ideal place to find out the true working ability off a breed most off the show folk wouldnae ken wot the breed was designed for anyway. I heard last year they asked the BMH (Baverian mountain hound a specialised tracking dog) society to take down any photo's of the BMH's actually working on deer which is wot they were bred for. Probably better to bide ur time and try to see a few LM's working first, there often tends to be quite big differences between lines/individuals with hpr's so be worth trying to find the right line for wot u want and wait for the right pup

 

The type off shooting ur wanting it for i would reccommend a lab as that exactly wot it has been bred for, but u sound as if u know wot ur taking about and probably realise that already. If u want something different a fox red/choc lab or even a goldie or Flat coated retrv or Irish water poodle, sorry spaniel might be better suited

I dunno if it is the looks or style of the LM u fancy. But as an out off the box idea have u thought about a proper old fashioned working springer, my springer has been mistaken for a mustlander on several occasions (lot off black body with white basically biggish lab size 30kgs with out a scrap off fat) has the looks of a mustlander but the ability of a springer might suit u better? Can't remember the recent breeding of mine but a lot off Badgercourt further back, my mate has a very similar springer to mine also heavily Badgercourt, I have also heard New Flame? springes are proper big old fashioned dogs. My dog really does look nothing like a modern FT springer, and it and my mates have both taken injured deer down before

 

As for HPR's strengths and weakness's after reading some of those other threads i actually was begginning to believe the hype HPR's had no weaknesses and really are the wonder dog that some people think they are. Highbird u say it is fine to have an opinion but yet u tend to rubbish any opinion which is not the same as yours.

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Possibly crufts might not be the ideal place to find out the true working ability off a breed most off the show folk wouldnae ken wot the breed was designed for anyway. I heard last year they asked the BMH (Baverian mountain hound a specialised tracking dog) society to take down any photo's of the BMH's actually working on deer which is wot they were bred for. Probably better to bide ur time and try to see a few LM's working first, there often tends to be quite big differences between lines/individuals with hpr's so be worth trying to find the right line for wot u want and wait for the right pup

 

The type off shooting ur wanting it for i would reccommend a lab as that exactly wot it has been bred for, but u sound as if u know wot ur taking about and probably realise that already. If u want something different a fox red/choc lab or even a goldie or Flat coated retrv or Irish water poodle, sorry spaniel might be better suited

I dunno if it is the looks or style of the LM u fancy. But as an out off the box idea have u thought about a proper old fashioned working springer, my springer has been mistaken for a mustlander on several occasions (lot off black body with white basically biggish lab size 30kgs with out a scrap off fat) has the looks of a mustlander but the ability of a springer might suit u better? Can't remember the recent breeding of mine but a lot off Badgercourt further back, my mate has a very similar springer to mine also heavily Badgercourt, I have also heard New Flame? springes are proper big old fashioned dogs. My dog really does look nothing like a modern FT springer, and it and my mates have both taken injured deer down before

 

As for HPR's strengths and weakness's after reading some of those other threads i actually was begginning to believe the hype HPR's had no weaknesses and really are the wonder dog that some people think they are. Highbird u say it is fine to have an opinion but yet u tend to rubbish any opinion which is not the same as yours.

 

 

Scotslad....their are my personal opinions...like I normally specify, now if you think they are rubbish, you can skip my comments and keep to your rubbish without been a child saying silly things.but at least I will not get bored to death with labs and cockers every time, even if I think that they are great dogs for rough shooting. It always amaze me how people pass comments on HPRs and don't have a clue what they are talking about....but they quick to put breeds down.

Edited by Highbird70
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Kes, I don't think a HPR is the best choice for a peg dog having tried it with mine. He's not happy and wants to be hunting. My mates Munster is the same. Bating with a HPR has also been covered. Not the best choice as you will struggle to ever get the dog steady on point.

Rough shooting is great with HPR's but you will struggle to get points on pigeons.

I don't know about stalking with HPR's but they are used a lot in Europe for it.

 

Most of my shooting is walked up game so my GWP is ideal. I suggest you have a think as the HPR might not be the best choice for your shooting.

 

Munsters are lovely dogs and if you want one then go for it but don't expect too much from it unless you put in the time and effort.

 

Harry

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I have a friend who works a large munsterlander and a small munsterlander he reckons the sm is easier to train and slightly more biddable but if you stick at it the lm is one of the best dogs you can ask for. His works with hawks, ferrets, deer stalking, fox shooting, driven and rough shooting. Whereas the sm is only used for tracking, falconry and rough shooting

 

I know he got his dogs from Germany and I'm not sure if this will impact the triaining/nature of the dogs

 

Hope this helps some how

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Time to clear a couple of things up.

I shoot on a driven shoot as a 'gun'. I also beat on this and other shoots. I also buy the odd day's shooting.

When the season ends I also rough shoot, after pigeons etc.

I am also in the process of taking up stalking - not yet bought the rifle.

I also shoot foxes but dont and wouldnt use a dog for that. I have a reasonable record for training and would do this myself.

I hope this gives a few clues.

 

If you do get one it will be an interesting experience, mine like dh doesn't like being a peg dog but will do it. I love taking her Beating almost as much as she loves it, and we now are always asked to work the thick stuff which says a bit.

She sits under a high seat for hours without a murmur and when foxing will find and tackle any not clean killed rare but happens. So really all up my experience is positive but if it wasn't for the rifle shooting I possibly wouldn't have one.

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If you do get one it will be an interesting experience, mine like dh doesn't like being a peg dog but will do it. I love taking her Beating almost as much as she loves it, and we now are always asked to work the thick stuff which says a bit. She still points and I have had some lovely shooting at the end of the season clearing up cock birds.

She sits under a high seat for hours without a murmur and when foxing will find and tackle any not clean killed rare but happens. Deer similar put her on blood and she is dynamite. So really all up my experience is positive but if it wasn't for the rifle shooting I possibly wouldn't have one.

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Highbird not that it will make any difference to u as i'm obviously a 'birioted idiot' who wouldnae know a good dog if it bit my backside, but for ur info i actually own a GWP so i think i have some idea wot i'm talking about, I also done a massive ammount off research over the 5 years afore i got him waiting for the right pup; going to training days and FT's and tests so i have actually seen quite a few of the HPR's breeds working in a proper environment and more importantly spoke to there owners and breeders. My exhead keeper is now one off the better up coming hpr trainers in the uk the now.

 

I also have been lucky enough to work my 'boring' dogs on moors and estates from the north england to the north off scotland, seen many different breeds/dogs , some good and some nots so good off all varieties. I have been even more lucky to work my dogs along side quite a few FTCH of a few different breeds, some take ur breath away others don't float my boat. Seen a few FTCH hpr's along the way to and trained with a couple, so do know wot a good hpr is capable off, great as they are doing wot there meant to do, quartering at range and pointing they do struggle with even an good trained working lab and do not come close to a FT lab at 'normal' gundog work. But that is hardly surprising as breed for something totally different

I ws shoooting with an FTCH hpr on a keepers day this year it was throu every wood well before any other dog :whistling: still a bloody cracking dog thou just not suited to beating

 

I'd actually say most of the boy's who are more 'anti' hpr's are all quite open minded about them and admit the do have a place but it is not sat in a hide, at a peg or definately not in a beating line. In fact i'd say the pro hpr lot need to take their blinkers off which ever breed they have is not god's gift too shoting, i know lab men who have won everything there is too win in the trialling game, yet come picking up with a mixture off lab's and spaniels,

 

U must admit there not the easist or most forgiveing dogs to train, they have more nose and more speed drive and often more intelegnce (which can be a dangerous mix) than any other dog which in my opinion does not make them an easy ride for a novice handler and sep when training them to do something there not really breed for.

I think ur doing ur dogs a great diservice by reccommending them to everyone for every job, bloody waste off a good running dog to sit at a peg all day and possibly only retrieve 1 or 2 birds per drive, i have no intention off ever taking my GWP beating or to sit at a peg got prpoer dogs for that

 

Ps I reallly dislike cockers :no: Dislike cockers more than i do most HPR breeds. Have no time for them wotso ever. Seen to many bad squeaking yapping bitches breed from over the years as genuine 'good' working dogs. Seen a lot of good ones too but bad ones have really put me off them

 

It's a real shame that all these threads end up the exact same place, there have been a couple off folk (in the vizla thread) who have been very honest a rated the strendths and weakness off there dog which is brilliant and gives the OP some facts

Edited by scotslad
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