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Off to Crufts to look at Large Munsterlander - Good gundog?


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I didn't. An HPRs strengths and weaknesses are adequately covered in the threads I recommended, as is the type of shooting they are suited to.

 

Like Kent, I got what you meant. This has all been discussed before, very recently and we all agreed to disagree as there are two definite camps who will never see eye to eye

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Highbird not that it will make any difference to u as i'm obviously a 'birioted idiot' who wouldnae know a good dog if it bit my backside, but for ur info i actually own a GWP so i think i have some idea wot i'm talking about, I also done a massive ammount off research over the 5 years afore i got him waiting for the right pup; going to training days and FT's and tests so i have actually seen quite a few of the HPR's breeds working in a proper environment and more importantly spoke to there owners and breeders. My exhead keeper is now one off the better up coming hpr trainers in the uk the now.

 

I also have been lucky enough to work my 'boring' dogs on moors and estates from the north england to the north off scotland, seen many different breeds/dogs , some good and some nots so good off all varieties. I have been even more lucky to work my dogs along side quite a few FTCH of a few different breeds, some take ur breath away others don't float my boat. Seen a few FTCH hpr's along the way to and trained with a couple, so do know wot a good hpr is capable off, great as they are doing wot there meant to do, quartering at range and pointing they do struggle with even an good trained working lab and do not come close to a FT lab at 'normal' gundog work. But that is hardly surprising as breed for something totally different

I ws shoooting with an FTCH hpr on a keepers day this year it was throu every wood well before any other dog :whistling: still a bloody cracking dog thou just not suited to beating

 

I'd actually say most of the boy's who are more 'anti' hpr's are all quite open minded about them and admit the do have a place but it is not sat in a hide, at a peg or definately not in a beating line. In fact i'd say the pro hpr lot need to take their blinkers off which ever breed they have is not god's gift too shoting, i know lab men who have won everything there is too win in the trialling game, yet come picking up with a mixture off lab's and spaniels,

 

U must admit there not the easist or most forgiveing dogs to train, they have more nose and more speed drive and often more intelegnce (which can be a dangerous mix) than any other dog which in my opinion does not make them an easy ride for a novice handler and sep when training them to do something there not really breed for.

I think ur doing ur dogs a great diservice by reccommending them to everyone for every job, bloody waste off a good running dog to sit at a peg all day and possibly only retrieve 1 or 2 birds per drive, i have no intention off ever taking my GWP beating or to sit at a peg got prpoer dogs for that

 

Ps I reallly dislike cockers :no: Dislike cockers more than i do most HPR breeds. Have no time for them wotso ever. Seen to many bad squeaking yapping bitches breed from over the years as genuine 'good' working dogs. Seen a lot of good ones too but bad ones have really put me off them

 

It's a real shame that all these threads end up the exact same place, there have been a couple off folk (in the vizla thread) who have been very honest a rated the strendths and weakness off there dog which is brilliant and gives the OP some facts

 

Scotslad.... First of all I don't think you are an idiot, due to the fact that I don't personally know you and can't pass and won't judge anyone here, and I don't doubt your dog handling, hunting nor experinces, what I wrote was a generalization and not to wards yourself.

Unfortunally when you/we write, sometime it comes across in a different way as you mented to be, its easier to talk face to face and share point of view, I also undertstand that we are all passionate about our companions.

But you can't deny, that every time someone comes up with a new breed ...gets innodated with comments that are not usefull to anyone and we end up with lab and cockers comparisons.

Thats exactly my point...you don't see me commenting about labs nor cockers, I will praise good looking and results or hunting, when someone posts photoes or experiences with their dogs, but there is this trend here, that as soon we talk about HPRs...the breed gets slated, when we should be more helpfull and compare all breeds for their attributes and skills.

 

U must admit there not the easist or most forgiveing dogs to train, they have more nose and more speed drive and often more intelegnce (which can be a dangerous mix) than any other dog which in my opinion does not make them an easy ride for a novice handler and sep when training them to do something there not really breed for.

I think ur doing ur dogs a great diservice by reccommending them to everyone for every job, bloody waste off a good running dog to sit at a peg all day and possibly only retrieve 1 or 2 birds per drive, i have no intention off ever taking my GWP beating or to sit at a peg got prpoer dogs for that

I can't agree nor disagree, with this, unfortunally in my life experience I only worked /trained Hprs or pure pointers

 

 

Mark

Edited by Highbird70
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I agree with your previous post Highbird 70, the problem arises when someone asks what the forum think of such and such breed and the replies come in. Then, when questioned on the type of shooting the OP is involved in it's obvious the dog doesn't fit the bill.

If they want to carry on and buy one that's their prerogative but they aren't buying blind and know what to expect. I can understand that people are attracted by the looks of dogs as I am myself, I love the look of the GSP, but the dog wouldn't fit in with my types of shooting

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I didn't. An HPRs strengths and weaknesses are adequately covered in the threads I recommended, as is the type of shooting they are suited to.

 

There are plenty of lab and springer threads which "adequately" cover their cababililities, I'm pretty sure there'll be loads more threads on those too!

 

The point is you didn't ask what sort off shooting the OP does but immediately jumped on the 'HPR aint no good' bandwagon.

 

As much as I love this forum it does get a little tedious that anyone who shoots a Hatsan, drives a Land Rover and now wanting to discuss buying a HPR, cannot create a thread without some smart a r se coming on and shooting him down.

 

It is boring for those asking a question and for those who wouldn't mind learning, so if you have nothing to add just hop along and read something where you could be useful.

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There are plenty of lab and springer threads which "adequately" cover their cababililities, I'm pretty sure there'll be loads more threads on those too!

 

The point is you didn't ask what sort off shooting the OP does but immediately jumped on the 'HPR aint no good' bandwagon.

 

As much as I love this forum it does get a little tedious that anyone who shoots a Hatsan, drives a Land Rover and now wanting to discuss buying a HPR, cannot create a thread without some smart a r se coming on and shooting him down.

 

It is boring for those asking a question and for those who wouldn't mind learning, so if you have nothing to add just hop along and read something where you could be useful.

 

I'm sorry but I don't think that is a fair assessment of WGD's post but a very jaundiced and subjective view

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There are plenty of lab and springer threads which "adequately" cover their cababililities, I'm pretty sure there'll be loads more threads on those too!

 

The point is you didn't ask what sort off shooting the OP does but immediately jumped on the 'HPR aint no good' bandwagon.

 

As much as I love this forum it does get a little tedious that anyone who shoots a Hatsan, drives a Land Rover and now wanting to discuss buying a HPR, cannot create a thread without some smart a r se coming on and shooting him down.

 

It is boring for those asking a question and for those who wouldn't mind learning, so if you have nothing to add just hop along and read something where you could be useful.

 

And that is why I asked - other opinions are helpful and HPR is not a topic that has a vast wedge of experience behind it. - By the way moaning at people who have Hatsans is ok in my book !!!!!!!!!

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I would love to shoot at peg using a really crazy choice of dog like a bull terrier. I should think it a scream to go wildfowling mid winter with a whippet. how cool would it be to get a Lab "out in the country" pointing? Or how flaming stress full might be another way of looking at it! Get the dog to suit your purpose and avoid being fancy, showy and you will have a lot better days sport.

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I think ur doing ur dogs a great diservice by reccommending them to everyone for every job, bloody waste off a good running dog to sit at a peg all day and possibly only retrieve 1 or 2 birds per drive, i have no intention off ever taking my GWP beating or to sit at a peg got prpoer dogs for that

 

 

Mixed in here are a few points that are useful, having dogs for certain jobs is fine if you have a kennel and want numerous dogs. On here we tend to have a lot who do shoot as a hobby rather than a job, personally any dog I have is also a pet as well as anything else and I can safely say my gwp loves that side of things. I stalk and fox all year then come game season beat each week at least once on a mix of our own syndicate and a larger estate. I could leave her at home but she loves it and we do the larger estate with a fairly small team of beaters so well behaved dogs play a large part. She is very interesting beating as obviously she stops on game and steadiness wise its been brilliant stacks of ground game and deer have meant I have had to stay on top of her and we have a good understanding. She is ideal because she doesn't flush like a spaniel yet won't walk over any. Yes you get the odd bird sits really tight but as soon as the line catches up then someone flushes it. It's far from their usual use but she would have the proper hump left at home and works well. Pigeon shooting she wants to be there but it doesn't float her boat. So really does what I want and in that way one might suit kes just depending on the mix of rifle shooting versus driven. The other side is her nose walks all over the numerous spanners and labs injured birds she is so hot on its ridiculous

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Mixed in here are a few points that are useful, having dogs for certain jobs is fine if you have a kennel and want numerous dogs. On here we tend to have a lot who do shoot as a hobby rather than a job, personally any dog I have is also a pet as well as anything else and I can safely say my gwp loves that side of things. I stalk and fox all year then come game season beat each week at least once on a mix of our own syndicate and a larger estate. I could leave her at home but she loves it and we do the larger estate with a fairly small team of beaters so well behaved dogs play a large part. She is very interesting beating as obviously she stops on game and steadiness wise its been brilliant stacks of ground game and deer have meant I have had to stay on top of her and we have a good understanding. She is ideal because she doesn't flush like a spaniel yet won't walk over any. Yes you get the odd bird sits really tight but as soon as the line catches up then someone flushes it. It's far from their usual use but she would have the proper hump left at home and works well. Pigeon shooting she wants to be there but it doesn't float her boat. So really does what I want and in that way one might suit kes just depending on the mix of rifle shooting versus driven. The other side is her nose walks all over the numerous spanners and labs injured birds she is so hot on its ridiculous

here is a fact, the nose on a gundog is not related too much to its breed. primary air scenters and primary ground scenters is. Some do both rather well, stating a gwp will walk all over a lab or a spaniel is just plain daft. On its own terms each breed has the better nose. Try running your GWP on a ground scent against one of the hound breeds, while yours skirts around down wind and gets confused by a loop etc the hound will be sprinting nose bang on the line- NOT better but just different

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Does anyone have experience of this breed as I'm tempted to get one for gun dog training, Always wise to check before you become besotted and find its only a dog !!!

Cheers

 

I will PM you.

I am fed up of reading - every time anyone asks a question about an HPR breed - that they should get a lab or springer instead! They are breeds that I personally would never give house room to (my personal opinion) yet I would never tell anyone they should get an HPR instead as I think it's better for rough shooting!. It's a good job that we can all make up our own minds.

Edited by Pidge
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I will PM you.

I am fed up of reading - every time anyone asks a question about an HPR breed - that they should get a lab or springer instead! They are breeds that I personally would never give house room to (my personal opinion) yet I would never tell anyone they should get an HPR instead as I think it's better for rough shooting!. It's a good job that we can all make up our own minds.

 

:good: :good: :good:

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I'm not going to bother posting on post's like this again it's a complete waste off time and energy, for too many rose coloured spectacles on.

 

I think 'team HPR' u are completely missing the whole point. No one is saying that HPR's are bad dogs just im my opinion not the first secong or even third choice for a hide or peg dog. As all dogs have strengths and weakness, why pick a breed off dog that happens to be weakest at the thing u expect it to do most off and perform the best at. I really can't see the logic Give me an ugly or boring breed that does the job well every time, and good dog is never ugly or the wrong colour

If an OP came on saying i have 1000's of acres of rough grazing/rashes/moorland with a little game scattered all over it, an hpr would possibly be the ideal choice

 

Highbird and Pidge in the short time i've been on here i've seen photo's off ur dogs on proper pointy type ground if u have NO acess to that type of ground/shooting would u still 100% truthfully buy a hpr?. I'm sure i wouldnae (mines is purely for pointing)

Pidge andHighbird wot type off shooting do u do most off? Do a lot off hide work? Commercial beating lines with 000's of birds in a flushing point in front off u? Lucky enough to stand on a peg with shots and birds falling all around u

 

Highbird u said ur self u've never worked or trained a lab or spaniel yet u a very quick to slag the breeds off (2 most common working breeds, that most keepers, pickers up, beaters use. Do u honest think we use them because there rubbish but haven't seen the light of hpr's yet), yet dismiss others as 'boigoted idiots' or dog racists who have eithered owned and shot over hpr's and have experience with both hpr's and normal breeds. WGD on here (who i don't know) mentioned he has shot over some off tommy brechanny's dogs probably 1 of the best and longest serving hpr trainers in the uk, if that doesn't entitle u to give an opinion with a bit off weight and merit then i don't know wot does

 

Whoever does the PR for HPR breeds deserves a medal they have got the breeds so far up on a pedastal, and the owners must permanately walk around in a rose coloured wonderland; i'd be surprised if anyone still owns a lab or spaniel in 20yrs time now that the 'wonder dogs' have arrived :whistling:

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The difference is Scotslad is the difference between hobby and work, no one has a HPR for picking up seriously its a bit like having a sports car for the day to day commute you put up with weaknesses because you like it. Mine likes fishing as much as sitting in a hide :lol:

 

AbiFishing_zpsabd16c43.jpg

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no one has a HPR for picking up seriously its a bit like having a sports car for the day to day commute you put up with weaknesses because you like it.

 

 

Sorry but for a picking up dog the term you're looking for 'is square peg in a round hole'

 

AbiFishing_zpsabd16c43.jpg

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Sorry, somehow I ended up making two posts.

 

I'll just add.........I've been to a fair few group training classes, retriever & spaniel, I've seen a lot of novice gun dog owners turn up with 'exotic' breeds, they haven't the first idea that they've set themselves off at a major disadvantage, they seem to have failed to grasp why certain breeds are used in large numbers. I've nothing against HPR's but as I don't own a moor to hunt one on I can see no reason to own one.

Edited by PERCE
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Time to clear a couple of things up.

I shoot on a driven shoot as a 'gun'. I also beat on this and other shoots. I also buy the odd day's shooting.

When the season ends I also rough shoot, after pigeons etc.

I am also in the process of taking up stalking - not yet bought the rifle.

I also shoot foxes but dont and wouldnt use a dog for that. I have a reasonable record for training and would do this myself.

I hope this gives a few clues.

 

The OP isn't just wanting a peg dog. by the sounds of things he does a bit of everything.

 

My LM (and past ones) picks up all season very happily from land or across the Dee and are brilliant on runners and sweeping through the woods after a drive.

She works for gun/s rough shooting

She will sit/lie by the ponds until dark waiting for flighting ducks/woodcock

She will happily sit/lie in a hide for pigeon shooting

She will work the grouse moor when we are counting or if we get the opportuity for walked up/beating

She has successfully taken part in working tests/pointing tests and Field Trials

They are also part of the family and live in the house

 

My friend owns two LMs which are also used for deer stalking

 

The only thing which I would not do regularly now is beating on a pheasat shoot although my first Munster did do this. The reason I don't now is that I don't want spaniels stealing any points she might get and picking up is better practice for what I want to do.

 

.......so IMO (and it is just that) if you are doing a bit of everything and an LM i the dog you really like, there is no reason why you can't use one for everything quite successfully.

 

I have seen bad examples of all breeds at shoots and most of the time I would say this is down to the owners not putting in the work on training in the first place.

 

I don't want different dogs to do different things - the dog/s I have are part of the family all year round. We are a team and will do anything we get the opportunity to do and do so very successfully - no rose tinted spectacles!!

Edited by Pidge
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I'm not going to bother posting on post's like this again it's a complete waste off time and energy, for too many rose coloured spectacles on.

 

I think 'team HPR' u are completely missing the whole point. No one is saying that HPR's are bad dogs just im my opinion not the first secong or even third choice for a hide or peg dog. As all dogs have strengths and weakness, why pick a breed off dog that happens to be weakest at the thing u expect it to do most off and perform the best at. I really can't see the logic Give me an ugly or boring breed that does the job well every time, and good dog is never ugly or the wrong colour

If an OP came on saying i have 1000's of acres of rough grazing/rashes/moorland with a little game scattered all over it, an hpr would possibly be the ideal choice Yes your usual point is, you have to have a lab or a cocker or a springer...period, you still have not understand, I like pointers type dogs....period, why would I want a lab or else if I don't like these breeds????

 

Highbird and Pidge in the short time i've been on here i've seen photo's off ur dogs on proper pointy type ground if u have NO acess to that type of ground/shooting would u still 100% truthfully buy a hpr?. I'm sure i wouldnae (mines is purely for pointing) I can't answer this one due to the fact that I am lucky enough to get invites and access to rough shooting ground, when training or shooting over HPR's

Pidge andHighbird wot type off shooting do u do most off? Do a lot off hide work? Commercial beating lines with 000's of birds in a flushing point in front off u? Lucky enough to stand on a peg with shots and birds falling all around u I do mostly rough shooting and various time in Wales for Woodcocks but also some pigeon shooting on a farm near where I live

 

Highbird u said ur self u've never worked or trained a lab or spaniel yet u a very quick to slag the breeds off (2 most common working breeds, that most keepers, pickers up, beaters use. Do u honest think we use them because there rubbish but haven't seen the light of hpr's yet), yet dismiss others as 'boigoted idiots' or dog racists who have eithered owned and shot over hpr's and have experience with both hpr's and normal breeds. WGD on here (who i don't know) mentioned he has shot over some off tommy brechanny's dogs probably 1 of the best and longest serving hpr trainers in the uk, if that doesn't entitle u to give an opinion with a bit off weight and merit then i don't know wot does I haven't slagged the breeds, actually I said that they are very good at what they do, but I love pointing dogs

 

Whoever does the PR for HPR breeds deserves a medal they have got the breeds so far up on a pedastal, and the owners must permanately walk around in a rose coloured wonderland; i'd be surprised if anyone still owns a lab or spaniel in 20yrs time now that the 'wonder dogs' have arrived :whistling:

 

Here we go again....if its not a Lab or cocker or springer...I'm not waisting my time. your choice scotslad, but I respect your point of views

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I think ur spot on perce,

 

I should add i wouldn't really recommmend a spaniel for hide/peg work either, yes they can do it but like hpr's been selectively breed for 100's of years not to sit still.

 

Alex but if u gave ur dog marks out of 10 for each different thing/skill it does apart from pointing a an averagely well trained lab would out score an excellent hpr on most. I know u do stalking and lamping with ur wire but no reason u couldnae train a lab to do it (i know 1 stalker culling around 500 roe/red and fallow every year and a lot on the lamp, under licence) all with his lab that beats and pcks up all season.

I know i harp on about labs but they actually want to please u and don't like upsetting u, my bloody wire is the opppisate only happy when my face is bright red and steam coming out my ears then does exactly wot i wanted him to do in first place with a big smile on his

face, :innocent: he just likes to wind me up. In Denmark they use a lot of lab's as tracking dogs tracking 24+hour old scent trails

 

For me the lab is a far more adaoptable breed, even look outside shooting they use labs for a lot of different jobs (guide, hearing, fire rescue, drugs/explosives, companion/healing dogs in hosp's) because they are so trainable and will adapt with the right training

 

If u really want a different breed go for it but really do ur home work into breeds and lines and be prepared to put in twice the work u would a lab. And if u train it to a decent stanard u should be very chuft with urself

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Mark, if you got that Lab which won the Gundogs at Crufts then there would be no training issues at all as it is too fat and useless to do anything and it certainly would not be able to run off very far without collapsing in a heap lol!

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Mark, if you got that Lab which won the Gundogs at Crufts then there would be no training issues at all as it is too fat and useless to do anything and it certainly would not be able to run off very far without collapsing in a heap lol!

 

But I thought that was a really good looking and working Lab...isn't that a classic look of a working lab.....LOL.....ohhh dear...I will get some stick for this one now....

 

I think that was a poor decision...funny enough I did see the dog at crufts and said to my son....it is a bit on the large side...it will not do any good......there you go it proves I know nothing about Labs...lol

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But I thought that was a really good looking and working Lab...isn't that a classic look of a working lab.....LOL.....ohhh dear...I will get some stick for this one now....

 

I think that was a poor decision...funny enough I did see the dog at crufts and said to my son....it is a bit on the large side...it will not do any good......there you go it proves I know nothing about Labs...lol

 

I will interested to see what your pup looks like mate lol!

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Does anyone have experience of this breed as I'm tempted to get one for gun dog training, Always wise to check before you become besotted and find its only a dog !!!

Cheers

 

Have you found the working HPR Forum - workinghprs.myfastforum.org/index.php

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WGD on here (who i don't know) mentioned he has shot over some off tommy brechanny's dogs probably 1 of the best and longest serving hpr trainers in the uk, if that doesn't entitle u to give an opinion with a bit off weight and merit then i don't know wot does

 

Just to be clear, I haven't shot over Tommy's dogs - I have discussed the dogs and their merits with him.

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