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24 Grams V 28 Grams?


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Your brain actually rattles around inside your skull, with the recoil of firing a cartridge. (fact)

 

Once saw a film made for Perazzi, of training techniques for the italian OT squad, there was a super slow mo taken with the barrels pointing over the viewers shoulder.

 

The whole of the shooters face (Venturi?) wobbled about like a blancmange, (he wasn't a fat chap).

 

Recoil damage to brain and neck are significant, that is why gun fit is so important, especially in growing children

 

kermit

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i`m just about to start loading 24g of #9 at 1500fps. as a dedicated clay shell. just for english sporting.

Me like the sound of that very much. :yes: Beats me why there isn't a readily available mass produced version by the various makers. They all list a soft velocity skeet one I know but few deliver even if you ask.

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thats just funny,

no, i dont tell them i`m using homeloads.

 

 

-

----All of my cartridges get proofed, so i cant see how the "homeload" issues are actually an issue.====

 

 

 

Now that interests me. How do you get your homeloads proofed.? I am not trying to be funny , it really interests me.

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yeah, thats a funny one, i just prefer 24g loads to 1oz for general clay slaying. in all honesty, what actually are 7.5s going to give that 9s cant especially at 1400-1500fps ?

 

lower recoil than the 28g counterpart and whackingly great shotcount and good patterns. these will be going through my F/F sporter.



Now that interests me. How do you get your homeloads proofed.? I am not trying to be funny , it really interests me.

 

1- walk into proof house.

2-submit loads

3-wait a few weeks. (at home)

4- recieve telephone call. (at home)

5- send cheque (from home)

6- read dataset. (at home)

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Your brain actually rattles around inside your skull, with the recoil of firing a cartridge. (fact)

 

Once saw a film made for Perazzi, of training techniques for the italian OT squad, there was a super slow mo taken with the barrels pointing over the viewers shoulder.

 

The whole of the shooters face (Venturi?) wobbled about like a blancmange, (he wasn't a fat chap).

 

Recoil damage to brain and neck are significant, that is why gun fit is so important, especially in growing children

 

kermit

Absolutely true :yes: . Now I'm not saying it's the same as heading a wet kipper for a living but the camera will tell you things you don't wanna know.

Recoil is mainly received into the shoulder initially but the shoulder is usually attached to the rest of the body so it then has to dissipate through via the arm, neck and of course the head. The upward movement of the muzzle flip is also responsible for a lot of the recoil going into your head via the comb. This is the reason why almost everyone has a break point beyond which they will get either a headache or feel punch drunk or drowsy through concussion. A round of clays on a Sunday isn't going to knock you out but think beyond the norm where people train by shooting upwards of 1k shells per day :oops: .

 

That's where it starts to get very serious health wise. Neck strain has put many a career on hold prematurely.

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yeah, thats a funny one, i just prefer 24g loads to 1oz for general clay slaying. in all honesty, what actually are 7.5s going to give that 9s cant especially at 1400-1500fps ?

 

lower recoil than the 28g counterpart and whackingly great shotcount and good patterns. these will be going through my F/F sporter.

 

Now that interests me. How do you get your homeloads proofed.? I am not trying to be funny , it really interests me.

 

1- walk into proof house.

2-submit loads

3-wait a few weeks. (at home)

4- recieve telephone call. (at home)

5- send cheque (from home)

6- read dataset. (at home)

Thank you I did not know that.

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Absolutely true :yes: . Now I'm not saying it's the same as heading a wet kipper for a living but the camera will tell you things you don't wanna know.

Recoil is mainly received into the shoulder initially but the shoulder is usually attached to the rest of the body so it then has to dissipate through via the arm, neck and of course the head. The upward movement of the muzzle flip is also responsible for a lot of the recoil going into your head via the comb. This is the reason why almost everyone has a break point beyond which they will get either a headache or feel punch drunk or drowsy through concussion. A round of clays on a Sunday isn't going to knock you out but think beyond the norm where people train by shooting upwards of 1k shells per day :oops: .

 

That's where it starts to get very serious health wise. Neck strain has put many a career on hold prematurely.

Can you back this up with any scientific data at all. What sources are you referencing?

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Can you back this up with any scientific data at all. What sources are you referencing?

Which bit are you referring to? Do you mean has anyone bothered measuring peoples headaches and drowsiness in a lab before and after shooting or are you doubting that recoil forces do indeed get absorbed by the shoulder, head, arms and neck?

 

My post is the result of over 30 years clay shooting and personally having to utilise recoil reduction gadgets to overcome the harmful side affects of recoil. I have also spoken to hundreds of shooters who variously suffer recoil in different ways. I know two shooters very well who have given up due to neck pains, I know several who suffer headaches (this is a well known concept in fact dubbed gun headache decades ago), hundreds of shooters choose to shoot low recoil shells because of hurtful effects of it on their shoulder, there are dozens of businesses worldwide who specialise in recoil reduction gadgets.

 

I have had four different makes of reducers and the best one to date is the PFS, at least in part because it has the facility to allow the gun to free-recoil backwards without the comb moving, this reduces concussion to the head via the cheek which in turn reduces the possibility of gun headaches when firing hundreds of rounds in a day. I know at least one individual who takes tablets before his Sunday's clay shooting jaunt. Headaches isn't a sexy subject and relatively few will admit to it, but there are sufferers out there.

 

If you read clay shooting magazines you will often pick up snippets of relevant information, for instance last year a well known lady shot stated in her column that having had to use heavier, punchier ammo at some world event had caused her terrible headaches; up to then her normal fodder had been below her personal threshold. I recall being told by an ESP England team member once that he'd had terrible headache following the use of some thumpy steel shells in a competition, again this chap is not usually affected by recoil but on that occasion had overstepped his personal threshold.

Edited by Hamster
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Gun headache was recognised as a form of concussion way back. Dr C.J. Heath, a highly regarded medical doctor was of this opinion c1925.

 

He possibly suffered from it himself and certainly had the additional experience to qualify his assessment being the then President of WAGBI.

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Specifically that recoil effect damages the brain.

Oh I see, no I didn't say it damages the brain, merely agreed with the gist of Kermit the frogs post. If you look at the head of someone firing a shotgun you'll see the head shake rather violently, this was even more pronounced back in the 32g days. The brain is usually somewhere inside the head :lol: , so it's not a great leap of deduction to conclude that it must have some effect on the grey matter or at the absolute least the billions of tiny blood vessels feeding it.

 

If you really wanted to I expect you could damage the brain by firing thousands of heavy loads through a light gun with no recoil pad etc etc. The reason we don't have records of several people a year being diagnosed with it is probably because volume shooting is done using appropriate loads and guns, well within most peoples capacity to endure/shrug.

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I wouldn't argue that you probably lose a few cells every shot, but then you would lose some walking down the stairs. I'd venture joggers rattle thier brains more than an average shooter.

 

If you really wanted to I expect you could damage the brain by firing thousands of heavy loads through a light gun with no recoil pad etc etc. The reason we don't have records of several people a year being diagnosed with it is probably because volume shooting is done using appropriate loads and guns, well within most peoples capacity to endure/shrug.

 

So we're talking about a non issue then.

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My sxs before i had a shot ezz recoil pad fitted was near enough unshootable with anything above 21g, i had shoulder and neck ache

From just shooting 75 28g clay cartridges, since the recoil pad i have shot the Same cartridges and bigger shot size 32g with no problems at all.

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I wouldn't argue that you probably lose a few cells every shot, but then you would lose some walking down the stairs. I'd venture joggers rattle thier brains more than an average shooter.

 

 

So we're talking about a non issue then.

I'm pretty sure that you'd lose your money. I think I'm right in believing that the damage is caused by the rate of acceleration. Jogging simply doesn't compete with the acceleration caused by a shot or, for example, a boxer's punch. The hazard is always present, the degree, or risk, is dependent both the force applied and the frequency of which it occurs. I would imagine that defining it as "a non issue" and therefore to be ignored is not sensible. Pain, after all, is a warning that all is not well.

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So we're talking about a non issue then.

 

In pure brain damage terms yes it's a non issue but this thread has had contributions made about recoil which are both valid and very much an issue for many if not most. Pain indicates a problem, so long as you listen to your head telling you things and act accordingly then things should be fine. If you ignore shoulder pain for instance, flinching usually follows as will irreparable damage eventually. If you're susceptible to headaches and carry on (not that it's possible) then I daren't think what you'll have in store.

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I moved from Express Supercomps 28g 8's to Fiochi FBlack 24g 7.5 due to severe shoulder pain. The 24g patterns well through my 682 which is choked at full and 3/4 and gives clean breaks. Less recoil has meant no shoulder pain.

 

I always prefer to shoot 24g where available but is really is down to what you feel comfortable shooting

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21g every single day!!!

i can guarantee most people use 28g because either their local shop recommended them(=more profit for them) or a guy who recommended them because his local shop told him they where best.

why would you need a 28g cartridge to shoot a brittle disk,it not like an Armour plated crow

 

furthermore if you disagree with what i have just said, prove to me with sufficient evidence and pictures why 28g is best

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21g every single day!!!

i can guarantee most people use 28g because either their local shop recommended them(=more profit for them) or a guy who recommended them because his local shop told him they where best.

why would you need a 28g cartridge to shoot a brittle disk,it not like an Armour plated crow

 

furthermore if you disagree with what i have just said, prove to me with sufficient evidence and pictures why 28g is best

 

I will but first you have to prove to me why a 22-250 is better than a .22 rimfire for shooting foxes :lol::lol: .

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