lee-kinsman Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 but if its bred from two registered dogs you know the lines surely? No, not when you take two second generation sprockers. The only thing you have then is what your told by the gifted gab thats selling it. No one said it makes the dog bad. ATB, Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Nice dogs Paul No, not when you take two second generation sprockers. The only thing you have then is what your told by the gifted gab thats selling it. No one said it makes the dog bad. ATB, Lee no worries Lee Bullets a 1st Gen Sprocker sire an english springer and dam a wee black cocker and to he honest he is just like his mum but with a springer shaped napper :O) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 yes very nice dogs paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee-kinsman Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 the breeder owned both parents, kc springer and kc cocker both excellent working gundogs, he wanted a pup out of both his dogs, (which he trained himself) nothing to do with anything else except that reason which is why he bred them, he has kept 2 pups for himself his friend got one and i got one. Or it's cheeper to get a stud from your own dog and make a few quid from the pups as well especially if you've arraged buyers first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 sounds like your pup's doing realy well for his age beeredup, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) 15 months old, sis and bro, both parents KC reg'd and both parents from very good lines, lost the kc cert for the springer so I can't quote them but could find out. Edited May 28, 2013 by Paul223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 yeah he is doing really well considering i work away 4 on 4 off but the wife is doing a great job with him while i am away at sea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) Or it's cheeper to get a stud from your own dog and make a few quid from the pups as well especially if you've arraged buyers first. i don't think money had anything to do with it as the pups were not expensive and besides that he's got plenty of money. ( he kept two for himself ) and he had all the pups leagly docked and microchipped so he would not have made much money anyway. Edited May 9, 2013 by big napper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 my last pet dog was KC reg'd and he had all kinds of health probs due to too close a breeding (he was an American Cocker who Sire was a crufts champ) kinda put me off the whole KC thing on that basis thats exactly why if you do your research KC registration is a good thing, had you gone on and looked before buying they have the facility to look at the inbreeding co efficient for a dog so you can spot really inbred ones. With buying a mongrel they could be a father daughter mating for all you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul223 Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 on that basis thats exactly why if you do your research KC registration is a good thing, had you gone on and looked before buying they have the facility to look at the inbreeding co efficient for a dog so you can spot really inbred ones. With buying a mongrel they could be a father daughter mating for all you know not when one is a springer and the other is a cocker its not that my last dog was bred from his siblings its just that particular show dog strain has a tight gene pool and they are prone to problems with eyes etc he eventually succumbed to liver failure aged 7 he was a lovely character and a really good companion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 i bought my sprocker purely down to personal preference Lee nothing more nothing less it was not a financial decision as i am more than financially secure and at one point i was even considering a fully trained dog, its your personal preference that you prefer a kc reg'd dog so you can see its previous breeding history and i can respect that and its your preference to do that if your that way inclined in the same way as some gentlemen enjoy touching other gentlemen intimately where as i prefer not to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 he's not so bad looking for a heinz 57 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 i had the chance to get a pedigree springer ( not kc registered ) not long ago, but i wanted to get this cross, i know 2 lads that have them, they are good dogs at what they use them for so i waited and got my pup,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,personal preference. he's not so bad looking for a heinz 57 not a bad looking mongrel at all mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 i had the chance to get a pedigree springer ( not kc registered ) not long ago, but i wanted to get this cross, i know 2 lads that have them, they are good dogs at what they use them for so i waited and got my pup,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,personal preference. not a bad looking mongrel at all mate. nope i am happy with him which is all the matters at the end of the day maybe the pure breed guys can let us enjoy posting our mongrel pics in peace with out running them down eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 sires lineage includes black mamba, amongst others, that should pee a few of the pure breed fanatics off!! Why would it pee anybody off? I'd be more impressed if you found me a cocker pedigree without Sandford Black Mamba in it! He was a prolific stud, over used IMO along with one or two others when cockers on the whole were growing in numbers from a fairly small gene pool. Although it happened, if you did your homework you could make sure you didn't end up, as al4x said, with a dog with an unacceptable COI... which takes us full circle to the benefits of traceability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 when you think about it though how much variation do you see in KC registered springers and cockers deep down they are all one breed and always will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 id'e just like to say that there is some very smart pictures of your dogs being put on here, and there is a bit more discussion than i thought there might be, but it's interesting how differently people think about a certain subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 when you think about it though how much variation do you see in KC registered springers and cockers deep down they are all one breed and always will be. they will be unless you breed the two together which then takes us full circle then you have the second generation breeding when you can throw a range of pups, its all horses for courses some like to be able to see the lineage and have the health tests done some just like a cheap pup and take a gamble on it. A lot of the time it pays off, with the bad practices that have gone on breeding wise of pedigree dogs there are now good tools out there with the kennel club to research your next pup if you want a registered one. You can check the inbreeding, the health tests done, health tests done on the parents and with things like hip scores through the generations and all online you just need the dogs registered name. All those things are there for responsible buyers and breeders to make it more transparent along with limits on number of litters and ages the dogs are bred from. For me that is why I won't buy a dog that isn't registered but that is my choice lots are very happy with unregistered dogs but its very funny how they will quote the pedigree dogs listed in the lineage of which none has any backing other than heresay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 when you think about it though how much variation do you see in KC registered springers and cockers deep down they are all one breed and always will be. I don't actually have any issue with cockers and springers being crossed, they are bred to do the same job. Crosses like HPR x lab seem pointless to me (no pun intended) as you will most likely end up with neither one thing or the other. At least with spaniels you will get a hunting dog, bred to hunt, flush and retrieve. But I don't really see the point in crossing breeds which have been refined over the years to give dogs with particular characteristics when research into breed lines will give the same results in a pedigree dog. There is no snobbery in it for me, it is simply a case a knowing what I am getting. I really can't be bothered arguing this one again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 fair enough Al4x its all preference, yeah have thought that in the past people with sprockers quote KC reg names but i suppose if its from a genuine accidental breeding fair enough but you can't prove that can you. my dog came from a friend of the wifes family in the north east who works on a few shoots locally i saw both parents and i am very happy with how he has tuned out as you can see from the pics he is a fine figure of a dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 Yeah totally agree with you there WGD the Labradoodle is a personal bug bear of mine have you seen the price of those things!!! at least with a sprocker its a working dog bred from two working dogs and what get is similar to one or the other of its parents this is where i think the KC should probably bring back the field spaniel breed to cover them as this was the foundation breed of the springer and the cocker where if a pup was a certain size it was a cocker and if it was over a certain size it would be a springer and its years of breeding the bigger ones that give you the springer of today and the smaller ones result in the cocker but even then there are differences between show and working strains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) to my mind the labradoodle makes more sense as it has a purpose to make a house dog that doesn't shed its coat inside, though prices are ridiculous as are the name issues. With working dogs if you want a cocker get one if you want a springer get one the idea of crossing deliberately I struggle to find a reason for unless as you say accident, if you have a nice KC reg cocker then why would you put it to anything other than the best dog you could having done any health testing etc recommended and then registered the litter. Edited May 9, 2013 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big napper Posted May 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 to my mind the labradoodle makes more sense as it has a purpose to make a house dog that doesn't shed its coat inside, though prices are ridiculous as are the name issues. With working dogs if you want a cocker get one if you want a springer get one the idea of crossing deliberately I struggle to find a reason for unless as you say accident, if you have a nice KC reg cocker then why would you put it to anything other than the best dog you could having done any health testing etc recommended and then registered the litter. don't they shed their coat, i thought all dogs did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 9, 2013 Report Share Posted May 9, 2013 in theory they don't shed and are "less allergic" to people with allergies but in practice you don't quite know what you will get being a mongrel so a lot find they do shed and aren't what they were expecting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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