HDAV Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Country file on now will have a piece on lead shot and ammunition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Thanks for the heads up, I shall watch it with interest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo23 Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 So far so bad, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 BASC have admitted that 45% of shooter do not comply with the laws when using lead shot!!!,this is what was said on countryfile! andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckaroo23 Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 As for the second part, still painted a bad picture, the basc figures on lead shot made it so much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughshooter Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I think most members of wildfowling clubs comply but I have never been on an inland shoot (pheasant) and been asked to use non toxic on the ducks at the end of the day. This is where the problem arises and will be the end to lead shooting in this country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Plain facts are if we like to admit it or not lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters, this just cant be denied. We have to acept this if we want to or not many of US are blatant law breakers. Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame but i suspect wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots. Dont hate me for saying this we all need to sit up and take notice here or lead will go for everything quicker than we think. Wildfowling clubs do all they can with lead shot disclaimers non lead cary rules and ammo checks in many cases but corect me if i am wrong here not one lead shot on waterfowl conviction as ever taken place and the deterent is just not enough for some people. Steel as been the dirty word in non tox sinse day one, and it has its short falls but its not all bad but sadly years latter many have just not tried to use it, initialy some hid behind their guns unsuitability for steel shot, but now vertualy every gun can use suitable pressure loads in steel readily available and certainly most new guns are fully steel compliant so there is no excuse at all its just illegal activity by people who should no better. Its iroisponsable behaviour by selfish fellow shooters who will bring about changes in the law that will efffect us all if attitudes dont change. If you want to stop back on the shoot day to shoot the ducks fine but buy some steel and if your purdey wont shoot it you should have deep enough pockets to dig a bit deeper and buy some bismuth, dont compromise the rest of us with your blatant disregard for the law. If you disagree with the law fine loby your MP get it revoked in parliament whatever but dont disregard the law and bring about change to us that have obeyed the law and took the time out to work this steel out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Plain facts are if we like to admit it or not lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters, this just cant be denied. We have to acept this if we want to or not many of US are blatant law breakers. Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame but i suspect wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots. Dont hate me for saying this we all need to sit up and take notice here or lead will go for everything quicker than we think. Wildfowling clubs do all they can with lead shot disclaimers non lead cary rules and ammo checks in many cases but corect me if i am wrong here not one lead shot on waterfowl conviction as ever taken place and the deterent is just not enough for some people. Steel as been the dirty word in non tox sinse day one, and it has its short falls but its not all bad but sadly years latter many have just not tried to use it, initialy some hid behind their guns unsuitability for steel shot, but now vertualy every gun can use suitable pressure loads in steel readily available and certainly most new guns are fully steel compliant so there is no excuse at all its just illegal activity by people who should no better. Its iroisponsable behaviour by selfish fellow shooters who will bring about changes in the law that will efffect us all if attitudes dont change. If you want to stop back on the shoot day to shoot the ducks fine but buy some steel and if your purdey wont shoot it you should have deep enough pockets to dig a bit deeper and buy some bismuth, dont compromise the rest of us with your blatant disregard for the law. If you disagree with the law fine loby your MP get it revoked in parliament whatever but dont disregard the law and bring about change to us that have obeyed the law and took the time out to work this steel out. where did you get your evidence from??? andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 1..Plain facts are if we like to admit it or not lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters, BASC have admitted that 45% of shooter do not comply with the laws when using lead shot!!!,this is what was said on the programe!. 2..Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame . Data gathered from birds tested taken from game dealers as reported in the media generaly and in the programe. 3.. but i suspect wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots. BUT I SUSPECT! ! thats my opinion bassed on my own belief that it cant just be game shooters and some wildfowlers must be responsable for some of the birds tested having lead in them. The fact is birds have been shot with lead attitudes need to change period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I know some wildfowlers reload but it can't be that many. Surely by now it must be impossible to buy wildfowling cartridges with lead in them. I don't know because its not my thing but if the shops are still selling them there is part of your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Plain facts are if we like to admit it or not lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters, this just cant be denied. We have to accept this if we want to or not ....i suspect wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots. Bull it is! Plain fact as accepted by BASC and others is that there is nigh on 100% compliance within the wildfowling community. As has already been discussed in depth, the problem is those game shoots that round the day off with a drive or two off the duck ponds. WHEN they do so there is nobody enforcing the fact that they should have changed over to non toxic shot! This is the issue and they are the problem. Add to that the ban by most wildfowling clubs on selling wildfowl and your argument becomes non existent. Edited July 7, 2013 by -Mongrel- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I know some wildfowlers reload but it can't be that many. Surely by now it must be impossible to buy wildfowling cartridges with lead in them. I don't know because its not my thing but if the shops are still selling them there is part of your answer. A 'fowling cart is only a fowling cart because it contains non toxic mate. In theory there is no reason why you couldn't shoot duck with pigeon carts other than the fact that it's illegal to do so. I know plenty of wildfowlers who shoot pigeon, I have never yet seen one of them use lead when 'fowling. Like me they have two stocks, one of lead and one of non toxic, in my case steel and in my case the steel lives in one bag, the lead remains in the slabs, so no confusion occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Bull it is! Plain fact as accepted by BASC and others is that there is nigh on 100% compliance within the wildfowling community. As has already been discussed in depth, the problem is those game shoots that round the day off with a drive or two off the duck ponds. WHEN they do so there is nobody enforcing the fact that they should have changed over to non toxic shot! This is the issue and they are the problem. Add to that the ban by most wildfowling clubs on selling wildfowl and your argument becomes non existent. Bull it is! Plain fact as accepted by BASC and others is that there is nigh on 100% compliance within the wildfowling community. As has already been discussed in depth, the problem is those game shoots that round the day off with a drive or two off the duck ponds. WHEN they do so there is nobody enforcing the fact that they should have changed over to non toxic shot! This is the issue and they are the problem. Add to that the ban by most wildfowling clubs on selling wildfowl and your argument becomes non existent. People on game shoots are still waterfowl shooters when they turn to shooting ducks. Ducks have been shot with lead accept it its fact fact enough we are possibly facing a lead ban eventualy so as i said attitudes need to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 I would think the use of non lead by wildfowlers is a very high percentage. They, after all, are going wildfowling and are taking guns for that purpose, very often semi autos which are capable of firing adequate replacement cartridges. Rough shooters and driven shooters are out for game, with their game guns. The numbers studied can only come from birds at game dealers, so most likely pheasant shoots with a duck drive. Steel is not going to be a good or safe choice for these shooters, so it leads them to be required to have a supply of colossally expensive non lead cartridges which they can safely put through their game guns and has a chance of actually killing the duck. It comes back to the original problem where lead wasn't supposed to be banned without a suitable alternative. Over a pound a cartridge isn't suitable. I saw the beginning of Country file. That "duck farmer" could easily have put some grit out for his ducks to cure the problem, but also surely the land must have been an old clay shoot or something for that much lead to be in such a small area? An utterly ridiculous case to bring up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 1..Plain facts are if we like to admit it or not lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters, BASC have admitted that 45% of shooter do not comply with the laws when using lead shot!!!,this is what was said on the programe!. 2..Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame . Data gathered from birds tested taken from game dealers as reported in the media generaly and in the programe. 3.. but i suspect wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots. BUT I SUSPECT! ! thats my opinion bassed on my own belief that it cant just be game shooters and some wildfowlers must be responsable for some of the birds tested having lead in them. The fact is birds have been shot with lead attitudes need to change period. how can you say "that lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters and wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots" and then say "Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame" andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 but now vertualy every gun can use suitable pressure loads in steel readily available That is brilliant news. My two are run of the mill examples of the thousands still in regular use. Could you please tell us all where we can get these soft iron loads for our 21/2" chambered guns proofed for 11/8oz loads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 A 'fowling cart is only a fowling cart because it contains non toxic mate. In theory there is no reason why you couldn't shoot duck with pigeon carts other than the fact that it's illegal to do so. I know plenty of wildfowlers who shoot pigeon, I have never yet seen one of them use lead when 'fowling. Like me they have two stocks, one of lead and one of non toxic, in my case steel and in my case the steel lives in one bag, the lead remains in the slabs, so no confusion occurs. And i am sure that is how most behave, but lead has been used in shooting waterfowl although no evidence is there to prove wildfowlers on the shore use lead how BASC prove 100% compliance from wildfowlers is hard to understand just how did they get that 100% figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 People on game shoots are still waterfowl shooters when they turn to shooting ducks. Ducks have been shot with lead accept it its fact fact enough we are possibly facing a lead ban eventualy so as i said attitudes need to change. I do accept that the numbers are quite probably correct, I take exception to your assumption that wildfowlers are to blame in some way, we have worked bloody hard to ensure compliance and are rightly proud that compliance is so high. As the group most affected by the lead ban you might have expected much higher non compliance. If lead does get banned I know where I'll lay the blame, but in the meantime I'll still do what I can to prevent that ban. I would think the use of non lead by wildfowlers is a very high percentage. They, after all, are going wildfowling and are taking guns for that purpose, very often semi autos which are capable of firing adequate replacement cartridges. Rough shooters and driven shooters are out for game, with their game guns. The numbers studied can only come from birds at game dealers, so most likely pheasant shoots with a duck drive. Steel is not going to be a good or safe choice for these shooters, so it leads them to be required to have a supply of colossally expensive non lead cartridges which they can safely put through their game guns and has a chance of actually killing the duck. It comes back to the original problem where lead wasn't supposed to be banned without a suitable alternative. Over a pound a cartridge isn't suitable. Why isn't steel suitable? I would have thought it would make little difference on most shoots, on those that it does they have two choices, stop shooting duck or, buy non toxic in another form. Is 20 quids worth of ITM a big deal when you've just spent £500+ on a days shooting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 And i am sure that is how most behave, but lead has been used in shooting waterfowl although no evidence is there to prove wildfowlers on the shore use lead how BASC prove 100% compliance from wildfowlers is hard to understand just how did they get that 100% figure. Many clubs including mine will spot check guns to ensure you have what you should in the tube. If you don't then expulsion is more than possible, dare I say likely. As such even those who might be tempted won't take the risk, and most I know now accept that steel is up to the job and it's not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Kelly Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Why isn't steel suitable? I would have thought it would make little difference on most shoots, on those that it does they have two choices, stop shooting duck or, buy non toxic in another form. Is 20 quids worth of ITM a big deal when you've just spent £500+ on a days shooting? Old game guns and steel shot wouldn't be safe to shoot. Any loads loaded with low enough pressure to be even marginally safe through Damascus barrels would be ineffective on live quarry. Personally I have yet to see a duck drive worthy of raising a gun to and imagine that duck drives will diminish as people won't want to be spending a load on cartridges for the least anticipated drive of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 how can you say "that lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters and wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots" and then say "Its clear by the evidence the game shooting comunity is to blame" andrew 1.. that lead is still the shot of choice for many waterfowl shooters . I consider 45% of birds tested was shot by what i would consider many waterfowl shooters perhaps close to the %age of birds tested. 2.. wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots" wildfowling clubs are just as guilty but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots" You missed out the but i suspect part conveniently in your red text, i think its nieve to believe 100% of wildfowlers in clubs or otherwise are totaly compliant, call me a sceptic if you like. 3..but perhaps not as easily recordable as birds from game dealers taking birds from shoots" Wildfowlers wont take ducks in to game dealers as clubs generaly but as individuals so are not as easily recordable as what part of the shooting comunity they belong to. Ducks have been shot with lead accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 That is brilliant news. My two are run of the mill examples of the thousands still in regular use. Could you please tell us all where we can get these soft iron loads for our 21/2" chambered guns proofed for 11/8oz loads? Note i said vertualy every gun if not steel safe use bismuth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B B Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Many clubs including mine will spot check guns to ensure you have what you should in the tube. If you don't then expulsion is more than possible, dare I say likely. As such even those who might be tempted won't take the risk, and most I know now accept that steel is up to the job and it's not an issue. I agree and i do think wildfowling clubs and wildfowlers generaly have recognised steel is not all bad but as i said above call it the sceptic in me but i do believe lurking in our midst will be a law breaker or two perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Old game guns and steel shot wouldn't be safe to shoot. Any loads loaded with low enough pressure to be even marginally safe through Damascus barrels would be ineffective on live quarry. Personally I have yet to see a duck drive worthy of raising a gun to and imagine that duck drives will diminish as people won't want to be spending a load on cartridges for the least anticipated drive of the day. Well I guess that like the wildfowlers who still want to shoot old 4 bores and the like, they'll have to stand the cost of the cartridges or, buy a gun that can handle steel, just as the wildfowlers had to OR, stop shooting at ducks! It is the law, like it or not, that's what it is, if you don't have the right tools for the job legally speaking, don't do the job! I agree and i do think wildfowling clubs and wildfowlers generaly have recognised steel is not all bad but as i said above call it the sceptic in me but i do believe lurking in our midst will be a law breaker or two perhaps. You get the odd bad'un in all walks of life, unavoidable I fear. Edited July 7, 2013 by -Mongrel- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 7, 2013 Report Share Posted July 7, 2013 Cost is the main problem, the law is the second - lead hits harder than steel and allows you maybe 10 extra yards. I have signed up to the pledge but the law should be changed to facilitate full compliance. Of course, eventually bismuth will be as cheap as lead and hevi-shot, even tungsten matrix. If there was ever a 'Holy Grail' of shooting its a cheap, effective non-toxic shot. Just MHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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