COuntryfile article on lead shot and ammunition

[motty]

motty,

 

 

Good afternoon. I do not have the same freedoms as most of you, being here posting as 'the BASC rep' I am afraid all I can do is say that the law in England, Wales Scotland, N Ireland have to be followed. After all its easy enough to do so.

 

Would it make life easier if there was just one law? In my view yes.

 

As I have said we are not in a position to push for a change in Primary Legislation until compliance is going in the right direction. If this happens and we did push for a change in England & Wales for the Scottish system, I know the opponents of lead will push hard for a total lead ban.

 

It will then come down to a vote in parliament, and of course the political mix of parliament etc. – Are we, as a shooting community willing to take the gamble?

 

David

So, by that reply, i take it that the 'opponents' are calling for a change from the Scottish law, so that it's in line with the rest of the UK.

[al4x]

course they aren't Motty they are leaving it well alone as it works..........

 

Its bull**** for some reason BASC doesn't support the scottish law, why I don't know but David has always been the same on here won't listen to any suggestion that it makes far more sense both from a shooting point of view and a wildfowl one. Either lead in ponds is a bad thing or it isn't

[scotslad]

I think (but i may be wrong) wot davidbasc is gettin at is to change the current law to say the scottish system or something similar would take an act of parliment and a vote by MP's.

 

The chances are the 'anti' pr machine would go into overdrive smelling blood and go for the kill. Probably end up with a sort of 3 way vote keep things same, improve (scottish system) or very good chance the anti's would try to get a complete ban 3rd option as well.

Who would put money and quite literally the future of game shooting as we know it at the mercy of an MP's vote.

Law might not be great but possibly better the devil u know?

 

I think that was wot david was gettin at but may have misunderstood

[Underdog]

Lol, all this politics just goes to show how much we have to bow and get our noses completly browned, a minority groveling for existance,,,,some democracy!

 

Does the "powers" give a hoot about the well fare of the minority? No.

Do the same powers want to impress a majority? Sure and we are the ones to be trampled!

 

Bring it on, idiots!

 

U.

[David BASC]

No, no one as far as I know is pushing for the laws in Scotland or NI to be the same as in England & Wales.

 

Yes changing the laws on lead would mean going back to Parliament, and that could be a very big gamble, depending on what party holds sway. Like taking the Hunting Act back to parliament - what do you think the chances of getting it overturned would be? I am not ignoring what people say about the differences between the English and Scotish laws. However, would you thank BASC for taking the chance and the result was a total lead ban - no.

 

Do you want to keep lead? Yes? Then comply with the law - once compliance is high we can review the law, until compliance is high there is no chance of changing the law in England or Wales

 

I don't know where Al4x gets his ideas that BASC don't support the Scottish system from, of course we do, if he has any doubts he can to call our team in Scotland or NI and have a chat with them about it? Please do and then tell us all what they said to you...

 

I take his point of course about depositing lead over wetlands in England & Wales , but I assume that like me, he chooses not to, I hope he is not one who complains about the English system that it allows shooting lead onto wetlands and then goes and shoots lead into wetlands?

 

I trust like me that if he is out shooting game and a duck comes through he chooses not to shoot it if he has lead cartridges loaded? And if he is going shooting and knows duck are on the agenda he uses lead alternatives...so where is the problem with compliance exactly?

 

I am happy to keep on shooting game with my old Damascus hammer gun (I should be so lucky - my ancient AYA Yeoman will have to do) with my 2 1/2 lead 6's and give a salute to any wildfowl that fly through, and if I choose to go wildfowling or inland duck shooting or goose decoying I will splash out on a second hand semi, liberating the cash from selling my Lanber.

 

And now to a PRESONAL VIEW from me, and nothing to do with BASC policy

 

On compliance and enforcement of compliance, I do think a key aspect here are the game dealers, who should insist that anyone who supplies them with wild duck gets the supplier to sign an agreement that none of them are shot with lead, and they understand that random samples may be taken of the ducks they submit. If lead if found the supplier will be liable to paying for the test, and refunding all of the money for the ducks, and have their details passed to the authorities, and this could leave them open to prosecution;after all allowing someone to shoot ducks with lead is an offence.

 

That will focus the minds of the shoots supplying duck into the gamedealers!

 

David

[B B]

That sounds good to me after all some thing has to be done or we will all lose lead if things carry on they way they have been doing.

Edited July 8, 2013 by B B

[scotslad]

A very well written response david.

 

If u go to a new shoot and the owner does not like woodcock being shot, it would be mentioned in the team safety briefing and u then would not shoot any woodcock u seen. How's that any different than letting a duck go throu the lines unshot at if u have the wrong shells in. It really shouldn't be that hard or such a big deal to comply to most folk

 

The only thing i would add about the game dealers is to remeber in scotland ducks can legally be shot with lead, i know we are all jumping throu hoops because off this survey,

But who carried it out, Wot was the sample size and where abouts where they bought Can they be guarenteed not to have been brought down from scotland. Really strugglin to believe soo many people are flouting the law and it is so widespread. But i don't do much beating/picking up in england other than grouse so possibly it is?

 

I know if i was working for 1 of those charities carrying out a similar survey it would be relatively easy to potentially stack the odds in your favour. Buying more birds towards north off the country or from dealers which have branches in scotland

[wymberley]

A very well written response david.

 

If u go to a new shoot and the owner does not like woodcock being shot, it would be mentioned in the team safety briefing and u then would not shoot any woodcock u seen. How's that any different than letting a duck go throu the lines unshot at if u have the wrong shells in. It really shouldn't be that hard or such a big deal to comply to most folk

 

The only thing i would add about the game dealers is to remeber in scotland ducks can legally be shot with lead, i know we are all jumping throu hoops because off this survey,

But who carried it out, Wot was the sample size and where abouts where they bought Can they be guarenteed not to have been brought down from scotland. Really strugglin to believe soo many people are flouting the law and it is so widespread. But i don't do much beating/picking up in england other than grouse so possibly it is?

 

I know if i was working for 1 of those charities carrying out a similar survey it would be relatively easy to potentially stack the odds in your favour. Buying more birds towards north off the country or from dealers which have branches in scotland

Good thinking!

[David BASC]

Morning Sctoslad.

 

The survey of ducks was undertaken by the WWT over 2 winters. The vast majority of duck were purchased from game dealers.

 

All the duck were purchased in England and the researchers checked the provenance of the duck. Yes its possible, I put it no stronger than that, that some of the duck could have come from Scotland, but not so many as to skew the results completely. Suppliers were asked at the time of purchase whether the birds had been shot locally to ensure, insofar as was possible, that they were from that region and thus of English origin i.e. an assumption was made that birds purchased in that region were shot in that region. For supermarket and internet game dealer purchases the labelling or descriptions were used to ascertain English source

 

They split England into 8 regions and sampled ducks from each region from a total of 59 and 61 outlets in winter 1 and winter 2 with a pretty even spread as far as I can see, it was 39-42 duck purchased per region per year.i.e. no bias towards the north.

 

In total 645 duck were purchased over the two winters and 492 duck were sampled that still had shot in them and in a nutshell the survey found around 70% of the duck had lead shot in them.

 

The report of the survey went to DEFRA and the conclusions were:

 

• Raise awareness of the findings of this report
• Raise awareness of the problem of lead poisoning for waterfowl
• Provide information and guidance about the Regulations more widely
• Reassure the shooting community that the Regulations are not intended to restrict shooting activities any more than necessary
• Utilise communication media such as the BASC website
• Provide information and guidance on the efficacy and use of non-lead
• Additionally focus measures on inland game and/or duck shooting
• Encourage game dealers to demand compliance in their suppliers
• Enforce the Regulations
• Encourage shoot providers to not permit non-compliance
• Requests for Defra and the Lead Ammunition Group
• On-going monitoring

 

David

 

 

[scotslad]

Cheers david,

 

i just find it really hard to believe that 70% of duck were still shot with lead. I find that shocking (and i also don't have a great deal of trust in some of those 'conservation' bodies) but it seems like they have thought of that and spread the sampling out.

It is also a largeish sample size (far larger than i imagined) so ur right it would take a lot off imported ducks to really affect the results

[al4x]

Scotslad you have to consider that there are a few places that shoot a serious number of ducks that put a disproportionate number into dealers. I've not seen it but do know people who do the occasional 300 bird plus day, its those kind of shoots need stamping on as its more those than the occasional drive at the end of the day type shoots that are the issue.

[Guest cookoff013]

i`m sure buying a cheap gun and a box of steel is still cheaper than 50 shells of bismuth.

 

last time i paid for 36g #4 bismuth they were £100 per 100.

 

they were poo.

[B B]

i`m sure buying a cheap gun and a box of steel is still cheaper than 50 shells of bismuth.

 

last time i paid for 36g #4 bismuth they were £100 per 100.

 

they were poo.

Most guns are steel compatable you know that, esspecialy with the comercial ammo we can buy here. some people simply dont want to use steel and quite a number of them by the looks of the figures.

[scotslad]

Al4x i'm well aware off the volume off birds some commercial shoots shoot, i have beat on a shoot shooting 200 off 1 duck drive before, not my type off thing but that pays my dog food and puts a lot off money into local area.

 

That was going to be my next argument but if u look at the figures; they bought game from roughly 60 dealers/outlets spread over 8 areas and roughly 40 birds per season. If assuming they spread the birds out evenly and bought 5ish birds off each dealer (ideally spread over season, but in reality probably not). Most big shoots will sell job lot to 1 dealer not spread it around the area. So any argument that it is just 1 or 2 rogue commercial estates (or 1 or 2 rogue guns using lead who shhot a large percentage off bag) but doesn't really tally with the survey too many birds shot with lead over too wide a spread of outlets. Assuming the birds have been bought using an even spread. Survey seems to have covered most off the bases that i would have worried about.

 

LIke i said i've not done any beating/picking up on english shoots so have no idea wot is going on, but 70% is a massive percentage, 7 out off 10 ducks shot by people ignoreing it for no reason as very very few folk shoot guns that are not steel compatabile, (althou i am 1 of the few, never owned an O/U and usually only gun shooting a SxS and prob the only person under 40 that shoots a SxS) i can understand how price is an issue for other non toxic but not for steel

[al4x]

I think its a law that has come in and been enforced or certainly has where I beat straight away the keeper was on the case but over the years it seems to have been less focused on and I guess has been more recently almost totally ignored to the point its almost unusual if you turn up with non toxic. This campaign may just put the pressure back and have startling results

[David BASC]

Agree, a key objective of the campaign is to raise awareness and focus minds again

 

 

David

[mudpatten]

To reiterate and paraphrase what Richard Ali from BASC said in the countryfile piece.

 

It is`nt about legislation. It`s about compliance.

 

The blindingly simple fact that all the BASC knockers want you to miss is this. Comply with the legislation and the problem will recede.

[wymberley]

To reiterate and paraphrase what Richard Ali from BASC said in the countryfile piece.

 

It is`nt about legislation. It`s about compliance.

 

The blindingly simple fact that all the BASC knockers want you to miss is this. Comply with the legislation and the problem will recede.

Difficult, but not quite impossible to disagree with the final phrase.

 

From a selfish point of view - not just me but everyone else who shoots older English guns (which are now suddenly worthless) over land where there's no duck and no water having to pack it in because the cost of suitable NTS is too high - what would a 100 bag pigeon shoot cost at a hit ration of 1 for 2? - because a load of buffoons are even more selfish.

 

I will share hopefully completely the point about the problem receding once we have the LAG report published and any possible adverse recommendations found to be non existent.

[B B]

Difficult, but not quite impossible to disagree with the final phrase.

 

From a selfish point of view - not just me but everyone else who shoots older English guns (which are now suddenly worthless) over land where there's no duck and no water having to pack it in because the cost of suitable NTS is too high - what would a 100 bag pigeon shoot cost at a hit ration of 1 for 2? - because a load of buffoons are even more selfish.

 

I will share hopefully completely the point about the problem receding once we have the LAG report published and any possible adverse recommendations found to be non existent.

You can still shoot steel through an English gun, my father has been shooting gamebore super steel through a charles hellis side lock a webley 700 and a BSA side by side none of them have been afected by the use of steel shot, dispite these guns all being 60+years old. And remember lead is not banned yet and probably wont be if there is a uptake on compliance.

[Pole Star]

You can still shoot steel through an English gun, my father has been shooting gamebore super steel through a charles hellis side lock a webley 700 and a BSA side by side none of them have been afected by the use of steel shot, dispite these guns all being 60+years old. And remember lead is not banned yet and probably wont be if there is a uptake on compliance.

 

What about choked damascus barrels I would not like to chance it & what about an old gun with steel barrels & very tight chokes ? I have an old Darlow of Norwich wildfowling gun as such , think I best use none toxic rather than ruin it ? . Any tips anyone .

[B B]

 

What about choked damascus barrels I would not like to chance it & what about an old gun with steel barrels & very tight chokes ? I have an old Darlow of Norwich wildfowling gun as such , think I best use none toxic rather than ruin it ? . Any tips anyone .

Damascus and with a lot of choke is asking a lot from the gun, but if its in good sound condition it would probably be ok with uk available steel shot. Remember the CIP and proof house guidance is just that guidance and the same goes for gun manufacturers this guidance takes in to account caution to protect from litigation as much as acctual safety.

Belgian A5s for example are not suposed to be steel compatable but many have shot them for years with full chokes in the states with no issues. If small shot std steel ammo like say express hunting steel is used in suitably long chambers with small sub uk 3 shot i think there would have to be some other issue than the ammo to blame like an opbstruction if anything happened to the gun to be honest.

[Pole Star]

Damascus and with a lot of choke is asking a lot from the gun, but if its in good sound condition it would probably be ok with uk available steel shot. Remember the CIP and proof house guidance is just that guidance and the same goes for gun manufacturers this guidance takes in to account caution to protect from litigation as much as acctual safety.

Belgian A5s for example are not suposed to be steel compatable but many have shot them for years with full chokes in the states with no issues. If small shot std steel ammo like say express hunting steel is used in suitably long chambers with small sub uk 3 shot i think there would have to be some other issue than the ammo to blame like an opbstruction if anything happened to the gun to be honest.

 

Thanks for the input BB always a worry with an old beauty better to be safe than sorry .

Regards Pole Star

[Tim Kelly]

Autos, even browning A5 autos are made of cut down canons and designed for use in America where there is no proofing so extra strength is a consideration to avoid litigation. Older English game guns aren't built for that, they are designed to be lightweight and to shoot appropriate loads within the proofing laws.

 

It's all very well going on about people using steel or another ridiculously expensive alternative, but an awful lot of people use old English guns on the kind of shoots where a lot of these ducks presumably came from. I suppose they could miss a drive, but they've paid a lot of money for a full day. I still think driven duck will become less common if there is a campaign to make people comply with the rules as they stand.

[Underdog]

Is it true steel loads use heavy plastic wads?

 

Most the shoots round here don't want bits of plastic everywhere,,,,, some'ting might choke

 

U.

[-Mongrel-]

Autos, even browning A5 autos are made of cut down canons and designed for use in America where there is no proofing so extra strength is a consideration to avoid litigation. Older English game guns aren't built for that, they are designed to be lightweight and to shoot appropriate loads within the proofing laws.

 

It's all very well going on about people using steel or another ridiculously expensive alternative, but an awful lot of people use old English guns on the kind of shoots where a lot of these ducks presumably came from. I suppose they could miss a drive, but they've paid a lot of money for a full day. I still think driven duck will become less common if there is a campaign to make people comply with the rules as they stand.

 

So be it. The law is the law, simple as that. If they want to shoot duck they'll have to comply. If that means buying a newer gun, so be it. If that means buying expensive NTS, so be it. If that means stopping driven duck drives, so be it. If they don't like it, tough ****! It's the law, it's immaterial whether it's a good law or a logical law, it's a law.

 

It was no different for the wildfowlers when it came in. If they used older guns they made their choices, one of those choices though wasn't to break the law and sod the consequences!

Edited July 9, 2013 by -Mongrel-