Doc Holliday Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 I found out in the week that the buildings regs drawings are pretty much only fit for wiping my backside on. I've emailed the guy who did them to see what he has to say and am pre-empting his response as one of passing the buck. The planning application drawings was done by one guy, whom I kind of know, but I found his price for doing building regs drawings a bit on the steep side so I found this company online who could do it for something a bit more realistic. The thing is I don't think he even so much as paid a site visit to verify measurements and just took the planning applications drawings as being accurate. The trouble is they're not but then we wouldn't be using these to build by. I would have thought a site visit to measure up would have been a prerequisite, no? If we had gone by his measurements on the plans the roof trusses would be about 450mm above the existing ridge line so not just a tad out. And the roof pitch is out by about 10 degrees as well. What would be my legal stance on this, anyone know? Oh! And I also now have about £1000 worth of roof trusses that aren't any good. The truss company took this guys drawings to be accurate and as you can see we've had a bit of a knock on effect. Still, I can put these to good use by extending my shed, possibly. Answers will be gratefully received, as always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 I dont understand what you mean by this "The thing is I don't think he even so much as paid a site visit to verify measurements and just took the planning applications drawings as being accurate. The trouble is they're not but then we wouldn't be using these to build by." Why wouldnt the planning application drawings be accurate? Regards Hcc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy1403 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 I dont understand what you mean by this "The thing is I don't think he even so much as paid a site visit to verify measurements and just took the planning applications drawings as being accurate. The trouble is they're not but then we wouldn't be using these to build by." Why wouldnt the planning application drawings be accurate? Regards Hcc because planning application drawings are what they say they are,they are drawings the planning committee look at to see if the building is in keeping with the area and not look an eyesore.any technical information is in writing,the planning committee are not expected to take out a ruler and measure drawings to get the sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 you get what you pay for, didnt anyone measure BEFORE ordering? or did the builder not build to the scaled plan? anyway its not all lost, if the trusses are too big you can probably gusset them with ply to move the node point inwards a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark@mbb Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Can't you start doing it on a building notice I thought That excluded building regs drawings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrycatcat1 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 because planning application drawings are what they say they are,they are drawings the planning committee look at to see if the building is in keeping with the area and not look an eyesore.any technical information is in writing,the planning committee are not expected to take out a ruler and measure drawings to get the sizes. So are there no sizes involved at all then at the planning stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBS Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 All plans I have ever worked from state " all dimensions to be checked on site" or " it is the contractors responsibility to check dimensions before work commences" or words similar to these. To order trusses from a drawing for an extension is madness if the building work hasn't started and its irresponsible of the manufacturers to make them without checking dimensions are correct. Sounds like poor planning on somebody's part, I would lay blame with whoever ordered the trusses without checking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brynhaller Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Most building drawings we use always state somewhere in small print : all sizes to be checked on site before commencement: .this is the usual get out clause,check your drawings to see if they say similar,if nt you may have a valid comeback.Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 because planning application drawings are what they say they are,they are drawings the planning committee look at to see if the building is in keeping with the area and not look an eyesore.any technical information is in writing,the planning committee are not expected to take out a ruler and measure drawings to get the sizes. Hmm I'd tend to disagree...planning drawings should be completely accurate. It wouldn't be the first time I have known an enforcement officer called out because a building is higher than the planning drawings etc etc. The planning drawings form the basis for a legally binding document and as such should be completely accurate. To the OP, if I'm honest Doc you pay peanuts you get monkeys...however...I'd be looking to the guy who did the original planning drawings for at least an explanation, did he measure up / do a survey prior to producing his information? In nearly 20 years experience planning drawings are always spot on as then the building regs package is just a detailed follow on, it does away with drawing it twice! PM me if you need any more help, I'm afraid it's probably a bit of a legal disaster though depending on terms of appointment etc, Mungler may be able to advise a little more on that count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Builder should have measure for himself and not assumed plans were right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 I'm currently having a loft conversion done. I intro the builder to the architect and leave it to the architect to instruct the structural engineer and then tell then to talk to each other - if any element goes wrong, it is not with me. That's me done - I'm out. My mantra, only work with people who you have been recommended and trust and who are good. When these things go wrong they cost bundles and will stress you to the nines and its just not worth it. To be massively blunt, you went for cheap as chips and unsurprisingly got massively shoddy. Not even visiting site? Blimey. Really. How was this ever going to work? Madness I tell you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Oh dear, what a mess, but I'd have to agree with Mungler, this problem is entirely of your own making, any competent builder knows that trusses should never be ordered from a drawing, all dimensions should always be physically checked on site. You've got no chance of recompense from anybody over this sad tale, just one of lifes learning experiences..?? Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 There's always someone who can do it cheaper, but at some point the service that's provided and end result falls a long way short in terms of quality. Ultimately, this is solely your fault and the number of projects I bail out because the client buys services for next-to-nowt is ever increasing. One thing you could do: Are both your plan drawers professionals i.e. registered with ARB or CIAT? If so, take your case up with them, because your consultants have failed you as a client too. You might just be lucky and get your professional's fees back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Holliday Posted July 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Ok, I think there's a bit of confusion here. It's not that the trusses are wrong, they're fine as they made them up as per the drawings. The mistake is that there is an incorrect measurement on the front of the existing building. It's about 800m higher on the drawing than it actually is and the pitch of the roof is out by approximately 10 degrees. These are the issues. The fact that I shopped around to look for a good price is neither here nor there. I refuse to believe for a moment that none of you have never shopped around. If anything this site seems to pride itself on how much someone has saved on any given item or service. The guy who did the building regs drawings is offering a professional service but if his drawings aren't accurate then what good are they? He shouldn't have assumed that someone else's measurements were accurate. Christ, if I worked that way I'd hung, drawn and quartered. The only assumption I made was that this guy was a professional and that I'd have a set of drawings to work from. For those of you who are saying 'it's madness to order from drawings', I'm sorry but you are talking out of your sphincters. If you're telling me that this is the case then developments everywhere would have delays of up to several weeks while the truss firms come out to take the measurements and then go off and make the trusses. This is madness as it would cost the developer far too much in lost time. There is an issue with the drawings and I've asked the guy to explain to me how it came to be. If he's a professional he'll offer me an explanation, if he's not he'll pass the buck. My money's on the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy1403 Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 if the drawings for the planners had on them that they were to scale and the scale is plainly written on the plans then this person is at fault.if it is not written on the plans then the guy that done the regs drawings is at fault and imo would have been wrong not to attend site and check details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 What does it say on the drawings? Any mention of scale? As he drew from your planning drawings it's easy to see where the problem has come from, it all depends if you want to build from drawings or just use them for your building regs submission and as a guide. I've gone down your route before but been involved in the build so we've never had issues, the last extension I did we did on a building notice with drawings from the structural engineer. The cheapest set I've had done and everything we needed to build with building control happy with the bonus of no buck passing. I had used her before but the difference was £450 versus £800 for our architect plus another £500 for his structural engineer. Some of these people are really not that intelligent and its easier to deal with one person. In this case I'd cut your losses use the drawings for your regs submission and then either measure the trusses later on or just build a cut roof, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) I was recommended my architect by a local chartered surveyor. The architect does nothing but domestic work (extensions and loft conversions) and he's good value, no frills and pretty quick. He does a measure up, full plans for PP and Building Regs and then the whole lot scooped and passed to his pet structural engineer (in the office next door). He is £500 plus VAT as a set fee and plus the engineer's calcs £100 plus VAT Taking any important measurement from someone else's drawings is risky. Taking them from drawings for planning (where there are no massive tolerances to worry about) is mental. I bet there's an exclusion in his T's and C's (and rightly so) that where the client won't cough for him to visit site and measure up properly, then the client takes responsibility for the accuracy of the figures / measurements submitted. Following on, I bet the bloke who measured up for the PP drawings has a massive disclaimer in his T's and C's (and rightly so) that no 3rd party should rely on his measurement and or that measurements for PP should not be relied upon as accurate for the purposes of construction. Lets face it - if the dimensions for a door or a window are out by 10 cm for the purposes of planning permission no one will give a monkeys. You get 10 cm on a door or a window when you're building in and you are proper ****** etc. In fairness the builder I use is magic. Seriously conscientious and good value. He is the last sanity check in the progress - he's picked up minor errors along the way and ironed them out. Indeed, I trust him to get it right and build it properly more than I do any other professional in the process - he's being doing it longer and just has the experience. Edited July 13, 2013 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sable Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 ime just having a 2 story extension built when it came to the trusses the company that makes them came out mesured up and they was with us in a week thats how its done not from the plans they are plans not technical drawing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 That's it mungler most things a decent builder just knows, my one is great give him the basic spec and off you go, as long as you know all the timber sizes and beam sizes most other things are standard. Things like foundations etc you never know for absolute certain till the hole is dug, damp proof levels etc are straight forward to sort then any issues you encounter along the way just need a logical approach to sort. I think with drawings the best approach is to assume they are wrong, I've used from the expensive to the cheap architects and technicians and though the buildings have been far from simple I've yet to find one I'd use again for anything other than basic planning drawings. The structural engineer however is brilliant helped by the fact the local building regs officer seems scared of her which helps. Generally they are the ones you want to worry about and make sure they have the correct insurances as they make the difference between it staying up and not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBS Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 ime just having a 2 story extension built when it came to the trusses the company that makes them came out mesured up and they was with us in a week thats how its done not from the plans they are plans not technical drawing Exactly, the last extension I built using trusses they were measured Friday and delivered Tuesday, no hold up at all. Big developments build to wall plate and check measurements before ordering, plans are never 100% correct, the last extension I built I had to have the structural engineer out to show him where he had gone wrong and how I was going to put it right! He just sent an email confirming my changes so that building control were happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowdy Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Doc I am a builder/stone mason and have being for 27yrs building /restoring houses .In all that time I have never found all the dimensions on a set of plans for a extension to be correct .some times they are near enough and others can be miles out . As for the truss manufacture you can book a slot/time for the making of your trusses in advance and get them out to check the dimensions on site etc . sounds like you are the one who will have to carry the cost for this as you ordered the trusses. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickmep Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 planning application and building reg drawings are for that purpose, they're not construction drawings. as has been said before, anyone who orders from a planning application or building reg drawing without site measure is asking for trouble, and probably wouldn't do it twice. it seems that you've got what you paid for, a cheapish set of drawings to pass building regs, that have been drawn off the back of your planning application drawings. in all fairness to whoever drew your building reg drawings i would guess that you'd have been in the same position if the original guy had drawn them, as i would expect them to use his original planning application drawings as a base for the building reg drawings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampire Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Never assume or presume anything and check everything mistakes always happen when multiple people involved,so use people trusted because of experience. You should of checked. Builder should of noticed. Planning should of queried. At the end of the day,i am afraid its you that will bare costs. Even when i have drawn plans/bld regs and built the thing myself,i always check before ordering trusses as this is the real measurement,same with windows etc,Never had one wrong yet,or better still get them to come on site and measure it then its on their heads. You will find that builders use the same people again and again for a reason,the team works and they know who can and who can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 as a builder i can tell you NOTHING is ever measured of plans.......................................................................... always check on SITE you would not believe the amount of drawings that are not 100% correct we have relationships with suppliers which means things get made quickly for us not the public stated 3week delivary and all plans have the get out clause always check on site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobt Posted July 13, 2013 Report Share Posted July 13, 2013 Thats why most builders refer to the plan as comics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.