Pinned ?

[atbh61]

So what are you all saying, there is a time when it is ok ? I dont know it all but I do know that this is never correct. and I dont need to know anything about dog training to know that.

[WelshAndy]

If you disagree with someone's training methods, thats fine.

If you have your own methods, thats fine as well.

However, it doesn't mean that your method is right and someone else's method is wrong.

 

Its unfortunate that you are giving the impression that you know it all and yours is the only way.

I had written something similar then the battery in my iPad died! Ha

 

As said in my earlier response if you have a better way enlighten us with it, it may get pinned.

[atbh61]

I can see nothing wrong in standing a dog on a table and giving it something to hold.

 

Happy now ?

why would you put it on the table? and if it was happy to hold something what is the point?

[Cranfield]

So what are you all saying, there is a time when it is ok ? I dont know it all but I do know that this is never correct. and I dont need to know anything about dog training to know that.

 

OK, I bow to your superior knowledge and promise never to do it again.

 

I'm out.

[atbh61]

I had written something similar then the battery in my iPad died! Ha

 

As said in my earlier response if you have a better way enlighten us with it, it may get pinned.

I have.

[atbh61]

OK, I bow to your superior knowledge and promise never to do it again.

 

I'm out.

It is still a simple question, even if you want to be Sarcastic. Is it ok or not?

[WelshAndy]

I have.

Where?

 

Edited to say found it.

 

Making a dummy smell like liver?! My lab would try to eat it.

Edited September 21, 2013 by WelshAndy

[atbh61]

ok silly old me. what could I know. I have only been training dogs for 40 years. I am sure you will all do very well without my input.

[WelshAndy]

I did.

[labstaff]

Personally I don't have a problem with a dog being on a table and placing the dummy in its mouth.....if it needs it. Some dogs are born retrievers and will hold everything, some are more reluctant. The table just helps to keep the dog in a position desirable to the handler i.e in front of the dog and the dog will be more unlikely to move away (I guess its a bit like place board training!!!!!!). The dummy is being placed in the dogs mouth with just enough pressure to hold it, no pain to the dog. Fortunately I've not had this problem, but if I did this is a method I would use.

 

Out of curiosity, how would you get a retrieve off a dog that doesn't want to give it up?

[al4x]

Come on people this is someone who knows it all but as far as we know has Didley squat experience working a dog in the field.

This method I would imagine is of use for a reluctant retriever and that is it, if it works as I'm sure it does or nttf wouldn't have posted it then its another option.

Dog training is about being flexible and working with what your dog needs, some respond to positive methods some don't. Fine with pets not so in the field, some need dominating some don't one method sure won't work with every dog

[scotslad]

EDit When i posted this i had not actually read the pinned topic , it is not a FF, i just persumed it was after reading this thread and the reactions to it

 

While i do not believe in it we are about the only country in the whole world that does not use the FF as standard gundog practce, very common in the continent and esp USA.

 

I know a couple of trainers who swear by it and train ALL there dogs by it even dogs that are retrieving naurally. Far more common on the HPR scene.

 

Must admit i think there is far better ways to train a dog to teach a hold (and i would say a more normal gundog breed should never need it) would say it is a very much last resort technique. The people who actually train/use it (without the table) say its not as bad as it sounds, and 1 off them is acuallty a very soft trainer otherwise

 

Atb Have u ever trained a HPR breed afore?

Still not advocating it but my dog would off been the ideal candidate for it, tried every trick in the book as a pup to get him keen on retrieving had no interest in it, even a tennis ball bouncing/moving down a slope, most pups find that irristable. Hpr's can be funny with retrievng and are not th natural retrievers most uk trainers are used to

 

Like everything in dog training (or life) u pick wot style suits u and ur dogs character best. If u have been arounnd 40yrs in dog training i'm sure u know some 'old school' boys who still train dogs to a very high stanard despite how they train them.

Horses for courses.

 

I havn't actually read the pinned thing but possibly a comprimise and a warning at the start (if it's not already there) I would very strongly reccomend anyone NOT to try FF, really really not for begginners and a lot can go wrong with it, once u start it u hve to continue it right throu or u will have made ur dog worse

Edited September 22, 2013 by scotslad

[scotslad]

Have actually just read the pinned thread and it its not really the fulll on FF technique i thought anyway, i have pretty much done/using that with my hpr placing dummy in mouth and praising while it holds, the first few times he was squirming a bit when u placed dummy in his mouth and u did have to gently open his mouth

 

Really not that uncommon, althou possibly the table makes it seem strange but as long as dog is used to table don't see an issue, infact the only problem with using a table is u might have to reteach the hold off the table later on, but not a biggy

[kent]

If you disagree with someone's training methods, thats fine.

If you have your own methods, thats fine as well.

However, it doesn't mean that your method is right and someone else's method is wrong.

 

Its unfortunate that you are giving the impression that you know it all and yours is the only way.

I agree with your comment 100% but as only one Pinned training post is by anyone but NTTF it sort of flies in the face of these comments.

The ways described are not the usual ways we do things here in the UK and FF is very, very rarely used in the UK, you simply wont find it described in UK based training books and I don't know any who "snake break" their dog. These are but two examples.

As anyone who is having issues with training their first gundog might well be expected to read the stickies and act on them, I put forward that help is going to be still harder to find when they land at a UK pro trainer after further failure with less idea about such (alien to the UK methods). FF especially, this can go very wrong and is a hard to undo thing when it does- besides anything else most of our gundog breeds from reasonable breeding do not require it.

There is Only really one way being put forwards and I suggest this might be worth revising, in view of the comments being made.

[scotslad]

My first post i thought it was a 'proper force fetch' but it is not, i just assumed that when folk are kicking up a stink over it it must be a FF.

In the Usa where they use a FF often it is quite usual for them just to pick up any dog without any 'proper' working breeding/lines and train them to be gundogs so may not be the natural retrievers that we work with.. As kent says in the UK most avaergely bred working dog will pick up no problems. Althou throu bad habitats/training it is easy to let spitting/dropping develop which is when u would use a technique like this.

 

How many people how are posting have actually looked at the pinned thread? That is not a FF technique as no pain/negative renforcemant? (not sure renforcemnet is the right word)

 

It is olny teaching a hold command, there really is no force involved i have seen numerous uk gundog trainers (i would bet most) do something similar with problem dogs (and i will srtess again that is NOT FF), say at training classes.

 

The pinned thread is not FF so i really don't see a problem with it.

 

Must admit i do agree the pinned topics do seem tohave a very non uk feel to them with squirrlel dogs and snakes etc, but that does not make them wrong, possibly not relevant maybe but not wrong

[PERCE]

Proper force fetch or not, I don't think it's something that an inexperienced dog owner should be doing. As Kent has posted, I don't think the average work bred dog in the UK needs handling like this, with the right encouragement most dogs will quite happily hold stuff with no need for any type of force. If a novice handler were to do this to the wrong type (nature) of dog it could quite easily ruin what could be a nice working dog given the time & encouragement.

[scotslad]

Possibly it should be made clear at start of pinned thread thats its not the preffered way to train a uk bred dog and it's more the type off technique u'd use with a dog that already has a problem like spitting/dropping dummy at ur feet, quite a few gundog books mention it, really training ur dog the retrieve in reverse. And not really a technique u'd use throu choice. I agree that most uk bred dogs are fairly natural retrievers but this is to fix a delivery problem which has probably be made by urself anyway. Even with clicker training u still have to place the dummy in dogs mouth the first few times.

 

Off course it matters if FF or not we now have 3 pages off folk including myself talking about FF (as i wrongly believed the pinned thread was describing it, really glad i looked now) when that is nothing like FF, which is a very very different way off doing things

 

Like most gundog things far easier seeing it done in the flesh under advice from an experienced trainer, i always think retrieveing training is the 1 thing that bad advice may be hard to correct in later life and i'm always very careful around it. Possibly thats where forums can fall down as u have no idea if the advice is good and also the person giving the advice has not seen ur dog so a lot off room for misunderstandings on both sides or if OP has described something badly.

 

But really don't see wot althe fuss is about

Edited September 22, 2013 by scotslad

[Cranfield]

The pinned tips have been there variously for between 5 and 10 years.

Nobody is saying this is the only way to train a dog, but it is one way.

There are plenty of books, videos, professional trainers, etc., available to members who wish to look around.

The "snake breaking" and "squirrel dog" items we have as an insight in to what happens elsewhere and to add a bit of "colour".

If anything is not appropriate for a member, or is of no interest, then just ignore it, there is no obligation to read, or follow what you read.

There are plenty of websites that are specifically for dog training , they will cover the subject in greater depths and with more methods than we do.

[atbh61]

The pinned tips have been there variously for between 5 and 10 years.

Nobody is saying this is the only way to train a dog, but it is one way.

There are plenty of books, videos, professional trainers, etc., available to members who wish to look around.

The "snake breaking" and "squirrel dog" items we have as an insight in to what happens elsewhere and to add a bit of "colour".

If anything is not appropriate for a member, or is of no interest, then just ignore it, there is no obligation to read, or follow what you read.

There are plenty of websites that are specifically for dog training , they will cover the subject in greater depths and with more methods than we do.

Thank you, for this reply. you are right on many points. It is just a little strange that in the pined posts there is only on mans way of doing things.I came to this forum in the hope that we could exchange views. but found that if you do not follow nttf without question you are told you are a "newbe" and a know it all. I am not sure why so many folk here are so worried about looking at another way of training. Dog training is not something set in stone.

[lee-kinsman]

So what are you all saying, there is a time when it is ok ? I dont know it all but I do know that this is never correct. and I dont need to know anything about dog training to know that.

Just looked at this post and rather than reading it I figured it must be about whether it is cruel to have a dog on a table. Is it because you have a really nice expensive table?

 

My missus would think I was being mean to her if I put my dog on the table. So I suppose in a way that it is cruel to hurt her feelings.

Edited September 22, 2013 by lee-kinsman

[kent]

As mentioned in another thread, I appreciate this is a pain free FF but it is still FF and used on the wrong dog will put a novice behind a long way and confuse the heck out of many dogs. I think you would be hard pushed to find a UK bred retriever that wasn't keen to pick stuff up from a very early age. Even when I trained Lurchers (true non-retrievers if ever there was one) never did I need this. teaching "hold" by command is very much easier than pointed out. Putting most dogs on a table will alone freak them out (ask any vet), though I know enough of Stateside ways to understand their use of such items of furniture in place board and "woah" training etc.

The fact is although I get Cranfields point there is but one view being put over in the stickies and its a foreign one to most UK ways. This is not the best idea IMO these days when people try and learn how to do stuff off the net, rather than by speaking face to face or heaven forbid read a book or two from some of the legendary UK trainers of the past.

[pontbeck]

As mentioned in another thread, I appreciate this is a pain free FF but it is still FF and used on the wrong dog will put a novice behind a long way and confuse the heck out of many dogs. I think you would be hard pushed to find a UK bred retriever that wasn't keen to pick stuff up from a very early age. Even when I trained Lurchers (true non-retrievers if ever there was one) never did I need this. teaching "hold" by command is very much easier than pointed out. Putting most dogs on a table will alone freak them out (ask any vet), though I know enough of Stateside ways to understand their use of such items of furniture in place board and "woah" training etc.The fact is although I get Cranfields point there is but one view being put over in the stickies and its a foreign one to most UK ways. This is not the best idea IMO these days when people try and learn how to do stuff off the net, rather than by speaking face to face or heaven forbid read a book or two from some of the legendary UK trainers of the past.

Here here

[Cranfield]

As mentioned in another thread, I appreciate this is a pain free FF but it is still FF and used on the wrong dog will put a novice behind a long way and confuse the heck out of many dogs. I think you would be hard pushed to find a UK bred retriever that wasn't keen to pick stuff up from a very early age. Even when I trained Lurchers (true non-retrievers if ever there was one) never did I need this. teaching "hold" by command is very much easier than pointed out. Putting most dogs on a table will alone freak them out (ask any vet), though I know enough of Stateside ways to understand their use of such items of furniture in place board and "woah" training etc.

The fact is although I get Cranfields point there is but one view being put over in the stickies and its a foreign one to most UK ways. This is not the best idea IMO these days when people try and learn how to do stuff off the net, rather than by speaking face to face or heaven forbid read a book or two from some of the legendary UK trainers of the past.

Please remember this is principally a pigeon shooting Forum, not a dog training Forum.

Also,we cannot pin at the top of the "Dogs and Dog Training" section, every method of dog training.

It might be simpler for some if we had no stickies at the top of this section, which is the way it was.

Then we were deluged with requests to create stickies out of nttf's responses to particular questions.

So our view is that the stickies remain.

 

Anyone can post their ways of doing things and there can be full debate and exchange of ideas (like there has been for the last 10 years , or so.).

[atbh61]

Please remember this is principally a pigeon shooting Forum, not a dog training Forum.

Also,we cannot pin at the top of the "Dogs and Dog Training" section, every method of dog training.

It might be simpler for some if we had no stickies at the top of this section, which is the way it was.

Then we were deluged with requests to create stickies out of nttf's responses to particular questions.

So our view is that the stickies remain.

 

Anyone can post their ways of doing things and there can be full debate and exchange of ideas (like there has been for the last 10 years , or so.).

As you say and I 100% agree this is a pigeon shooting forum, However I do think that the advice pinned here should reflect the training used in the UK and supported by BASC and the KC. Or am I alone in thinking that they may know more and better that nttf?

[sako751sg]

Did you answer my question? is it ok to put a dog on a table and put something in its mouth and make it hold it?

Did you have to do that when you were teaching your dog?

Yes,unless its your penis,and then you are a bad man and should seek help.Going by your posts,i still believe you should seek help.Hope this helps.

Edited September 23, 2013 by sako751sg